Toriyama Is Ruining DragonBall?!

[Li'l Lemmy]

In a vein similar to that of a topic I made last year, this topic is to address the viability of the new stance I've seen bandied about recently that "Toriyama is ruining DragonBall".

I suppose this is with specific regards to things like DragonBall Minus and especially the new informations frequently presented in the ongoing Q&A sessions. Whether these new tidbits contradict established events (even though, for the record, there is no official "canon") or simply don't sit well with the reader, a portion of the fanbase labels a lot of what the man says these days as careless ass-pull. Folks of this opinion sometimes go far as to say that they would prefer no new information at all, or at least no further involvement from Toriyama.

Given the wonderful invention of personal canon, I'm not particularly concerned one way or the other, but some people take this stuff pretty seriously. Is Toriyama doing a disservice to his own creation by adding to it? Should he sit out of it? What do you think of his involvement with the DragonBall property as of late?

Discuss.


~Da Lemmy

[Ajay]

His off the cuff comments are pretty silly and I don't think he realises how many people take that stuff seriously. Personally, I don't really care. I don't take in-universe discussion seriously at all.

He does need to leave Dragon Ball alone though. Minus was a total embarrassment on just about every account and shoehorning Jaco in there was awful. He hasn't done anything noteworthy in years and I'd much prefer his input to be limited to the type of stuff he did for Battle of Gods.

Have someone come up with the basic premise and plotline and let him come in and tell them what's what. That way you get writing that isn't abysmal but it's still got that real Toriyama feel to it. Obviously we don't know just how involved he was on the film but I don't see him putting out anything to the caliber of Battle of Gods by himself.

Sorry Mr. Toriyama, you've shown me nothing to make me take you remotely seriously in a long time. Don't become George Lucas 2.0.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'm of the opinion that, unless it is stated for an absolute fact in the original story itself - in this case, the manga - then it is entirely up to each individual fan how seriously they want to take additional information. Take for example, JK Rowling's revelation about Dumbledore, that only came out after the last book was already out. Nothing in the books themselves flat out say that this is true, but a lot of people (though mostly for far different reasons, sadly) decried it as 'ruining the character'. But again, it's not actually stated in the books proper...so one can easily discount it if they so wanted to.

I look at the stuff Toriyama has added through guidebooks and interviews in the same way. If something is said that someone really doesn't like, then you don't have to take it as being 100% true. You can discount it and just enjoy the original product itself. It seems like a lot of people just can't bring themselves to do that though, and I can understand that too - you don't want to have to ignore what the original creator says just as a matter of principle, after all.

For myself, I've liked most of what Toriyama has since brought to the table. Just going over a few major things in my head...Table, while at first a bit jarring, is a better 'twist' as Vegeta's brother than what most fan-creations have for that kind of character. The idea that there were good Saiyans in the distant past that got killed out, and even ones towards the end of their race that were less prone to battle, while again kind of jarring, makes sense to me - it's kind of a leap for an entire race to be completely evil, when you think about it. I'm still not sure I really like the ritual for Super Saiyan God itself though, even if I'm fine with the design, and also can't come up with a better way for it to be reached myself. I'm fine, in theory, with Bulma having an older sister, though I do kind of want to know why in the heck she was never mentioned before or after. Finding out about 17 and 18's real names at long last is pretty cool IMO, as well as hearing about where 16 and 19's designs came from (in-universe, from Gero, I mean). I'm admittedly not very fond of this 'Majin Boo has always existed' thing though, but that's the newest info that I'm aware of, so it's still sinking in too.

So no, I wouldn't say Toriyama is 'ruining' Dragon Ball. Not all of the new colors he's adding to the overall picture are ones that I myself would choose, but they've more or less been good in my books. I'd give it about an 8 out of 10, and definitely still want him to be involved for a long time to come.

[eledoremassis02]

For Dragon Ball Minus, I consider it the story for the Manga while DBZ special 1 is for the Anime.

It's really not too big of a deal if you just have fun reading the story

[Luso Saiyan]

Is Toriyama doing a disservice to his own creation by adding to it? Should he sit out of it?

In my opinion, Toriyama himself should be the judge of that. If he wants to expand the fiction he created, he's in his right to do so. We as fans have the choice to either accept it or ignore it. I'm not arrogant nor presumptuous enough to say what he should and shouldn't do.

[dbzfan7]

I think he needs an editor or a fact checker. I think he can do some good, but I think he needs a continuity person.

[Chuquita]

I'd be curious what Toriyama + Toriyama's old editor Torishima would result in. Toriyama respected the guy's editorial skills enough to take his advice even after he stopped being his official editor (all those Cell arc changes in the manga). Generally speaking, a good writer-editor relationship is key to keeping your writing from getting bloated or filled with plot-holes; doesn't necessarily mean that still won't happen, but it lessens the chances.

In terms of Toriyama "ruining" DB though; so far there hasn't been anything I've felt negatively about. There's stuff I'm neutral towards, or just not interested in, but nothing that I've disliked.

[DarkPrince_92]

I think he needs an editor or a fact checker. I think he can do some good, but I think he needs a continuity person.

I agree with this. He's not so far gone as of yet, he just needs a number 2 who's keeping things in order.

[jda95]

I honestly don't understand the hate for all the new Toriyama stuff. Admittedly Minus was a bit messy (but even then, if you don't accept the Bardock special as canon it makes things a lot easier) and sure, he could use a bit of editing and factchecking, but in the end it is his franchise and even the raw, unedited stuff reflects his original vision for what is undoubtedly his story. Sure, you don't have to accept anything you don't want as canon but don't completely write off the word of the creator simply because he's said something you don't agree with.

[Kid Buu]

At this point I just go by what I read in the manga, and maybe the original anime.

[B]

It's his story. If he wants to ruin it, that is his prerogative.

I believe the underlying issue is that Toriyama has never taken Dragon Ball seriously. Literally, from the beginning, It's not some monumental, iconic piece of holy writ to him. It's some stuff he scribbled for money. So when he approaches it as lax as he has, it seems jarring to some.

[Soul]

Yeah, this isn't like George Lucas ruining Star Wars or anything, it's more in line as to if J.K. Rowling continued to comment on Harry Potter, which...she has.
And personally, Toriyama can't ruin Dragon Ball.

Toei already did that with GT.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Yeah, this isn't like George Lucas ruining Star Wars or anything, it's more in line as to if J.K. Rowling continued to comment on Harry Potter, which...she has.
And personally, Toriyama can't ruin Dragon Ball.

Toei already did that with GT.

I disagree. I don't think GT was the start of DB being "ruined" or at least added to in a haphazard way. GT had its problems story-wise, but it didn't feel completely half-assed. It was 64 episodes of completely new animation, which at its best was far more gorgeous than anything in DB or Z. It also gave the series a far more satisfying ending than anything before or since. I haven't been following these new developments very closely, but it seems to me that black-and-white comics drawn by someone no one had heard of previously and thirty-minute TV specials aren't on the same level as GT.

[Luso Saiyan]

Yeah, this isn't like George Lucas ruining Star Wars or anything, it's more in line as to if J.K. Rowling continued to comment on Harry Potter, which...she has.
And personally, Toriyama can't ruin Dragon Ball.

I never understood this concept of the franchise creator "ruining" his own franchise, be it Lucas, Rowling, Tolkien, Toriyama or anyone else. Nothing is "ruined", some people just can't accept the fact that they weren't the ones who have created said franchise, and because they don't share certain artistic decisions, they childishly use terms like "ruin" (or even "rape" in certain cases) to show their immaturity...

I believe the underlying issue is that Toriyama has never taken Dragon Ball seriously. Literally, from the beginning, It's not some monumental, iconic piece of holy writ to him. It's some stuff he scribbled for money. So when he approaches it as lax as he has, it seems jarring to some.

That I can agree with, but it's something that he has admitted for a long time, so people had more than enough time to accept that. Although the fact that he continues to expand it, even if in a laxly way, shows that he cares about it.

[ChahikoDBZ]

Honestly he should stop or at least re-think things. I don't consider Minus as something serious because it didn't come off that serious to me. I like that we were able to know about Goku's mother but I think everything else was pathetic. If she was tied in with the Bardock special I have a feeling her character would have turned out better although that was just an anime thing. I like that we now know Android 17 and 18's real names. I dislike the possibility of no SSJ2 or 3 if there were to be future material. I guess you can say I'm liking some of the new stuff he's putting out there for us but not enough to the point where I'd want him to continue.

[Cetra]

Soul wrote:
I never understood this concept of the franchise creator "ruining" his own franchise, be it Lucas, Rowling, Tolkien, Toriyama or anyone else. Nothing is "ruined", some people just can't accept the fact that they weren't the ones who have created said franchise, and because they don't share certain artistic decisions, they childishly use terms like "ruin" (or even "rape" in certain cases) to show their immaturity...

That is true. Like or dislike what you want, but it will not change things. This and that are different things.

[Blade]

I don't think that Toriyama can ruin Dragonball - it's already out there in completed form as a finished, published work.

I do, however, have a problem with him dipping back into the franchise after all of these years half-heartedly. I mean, as the original creator, he has remit to do whatever the hell he wants to his own work - he's the frickin' author! But I think that it's disrespectful to both his original work, and most importantly, the fans who adore it, to loose-handedly just throw new stuff out there without any consideration for the consequences it has against thing's he has published in the past.

I mean, sure - his memory isn't great. We all know that - and most importantly so does he. So I think that owing to this, he ought to either reacquaint himself with his work to the point of being informed enough to make new in-universe statements without contradiction, or at least recognise his shortcomings and opt to not put new stuff out there that could clash.

His fans have made him a very wealthy man and allowed him to have a wonderful career, so I think that frankly he owes us that much.

[sintzu]

Over all yes he is ruining it,Sure there is some good like the new Buu origin cause it isn't a copy of Cell's like in the manga but the bad more then outweighs it

The minus chapter

He changed bardock from being a ruthless saiyan who doesn't care about anything but himself to a loving father,He changed goku's reason to why he was sent to earth from the saiyans wanting him to kill evryone on it so they can sell it to being sent by his loving parents so he won't die with the planet,He implys that goku was alwayse going to turn out good cause of his nice parents and not that it was just by luck

BOG

He changed the way a saiyan reaches ssj levels from anger,power and hatred to pure harted innocent saiyans holding hands,He took away the epic,brutal and destructive fights and gave us a kid freindly not to violent fight,He turend Vegeta from the badass that he was in the manga to a kid's comedy relife and only gets mad when his wife gets hurt

The main problim with toriyama is that he wants dragon ball to be family friendly and not epic and dark like what it was and alwayse will be

[Luso Saiyan]

His fans have made him a very wealthy man and allowed him to have a wonderful career, so I think that frankly he owes us that much.

His fans made him wealthy because he made a product they liked. He doesn't owe us anything.

...

What?! I don't even...

[KentalSSJ6]

Over all yes he is ruining it,Sure there is some good like the new Buu origin cause it isn't a copy of Cell's like in the manga but the bad more then outweighs it

The minus chapter

He changed bardock from being a ruthless saiyan who doesn't care about anything but himself to a loving father,He changed goku's reason to why he was sent to earth from the saiyans wanting him to kill evryone on it so they can sell it to being sent by his loving parents so he won't die with the planet,He implys that goku was alwayse going to turn out good cause of his nice parents and not that it was just by luck

BOG

He changed the way a saiyan reaches ssj levels from anger,power and hatred to pure harted innocent saiyans holding hands,He took away the epic,brutal and destructive fights and gave us a kid freindly not to violent fight,He turend Vegeta from the badass that he was in the manga to a kid's comedy relife and only gets mad when his wife gets hurt

The main problim with toriyama is that he wants dragon ball to be family friendly and not epic and dark like what it was and alwayse will be

Dude, Dragonball has always been a comedy at heart aimed at the Shounen demographic, which is basically 3-4 to 15 years old. Dragonball was never intended to be "dark and epic" as series like Berserk or Death Note are.