Toriyama Is Ruining DragonBall?!

[sintzu]

Dude, Dragonball has always been a comedy at heart aimed at the Shounen demographic, which is basically 3-4 to 15 years old. Dragonball was never intended to be "dark and epic" as series like Berserk or Death Note are.

Serious might be a better word then

[Blade]

His fans made him wealthy because he made a product they liked. He doesn't owe us anything.

I totally disagree. He owes us everything.

In my opinion, there is no greater compliment to an artist than people buying into their work. If Toriyama appreciated his fans, he would extend them the basic respect of taking his work seriously and at least giving due care and consideration to the changes he wishes to make to previously established narrative events.

I find the idea of him conducting himself without such simple considerations to be in poor taste to say the least. It's like Leonardo Da Vinci coming back to the Mona Lisa 20 years later, having lost all enthusiasm and interest in it, and deciding to scribble goofy additions all over the canvas for his own amusement, totally disregarding the the people who enjoy the work the way it was originally. It's almost tantamount to vandalism, only without a malicious intent - just a flagrant disregard for ones own work.

Like I said previously, the guy has more right than anyone to change anything he wants about Dragonball - it's his creation, but that doesn't mean I appreciate the way in which he's going about it. Heck, even if he wanted to change things up, if he went about it in the right way and showed he has the dedication and interest to carefully make the changes, I think the majority of people wouldn't be so bothered. Of course, there will always be people who don't like change and believe that things like this should always be left alone - but I'm not one of them, so long as it's done with due care and consideration, not just hauled straight out of his ass and slapped into a staged Q&A.

[Luso Saiyan]

I totally disagree. He owes us everything.

Sorry, but he doesn't. You got what you bought. He doesn't owe you anything more than you owe him.

If the fanbase is as huge as it is, the merit is first and foremost on him and his work.

but that doesn't mean I appreciate the way in which he's going about it.

You have every right to dislike it. I'm not arguing that.

[Blade]

Sorry, but he doesn't. You got what you bought. He doesn't owe you anything more than you owe him.

We've paid for his food, his house and the clothes on his back. Whilst I don't mean to say for one second that he owes the fandom grovelling gratitude or a duty of servitude, he at least owes us a level of respect, which I feel has been somewhat lacking in most of his recent forays back into the franchise.

If the fanbase is as huge as it is, the merit is first and foremost on him and his work..

It's not a universal formula of causality, hard work doesn't necessarily equate to success. There's a lot of hard working, highly skilled artists who produce top quality material, and don't have a penny to show for it, not least a sizable fortune and fan following. The truth is that, no matter how you look at it, he's incredibly lucky and privileged to have had the career he has had.

[Luso Saiyan]

We've paid for his food, his house and the clothes on his back.

No, he paid all that with the money he earned from the series he created. We, fans, got what we paid for.

It's not a universal formula of causality, hard work doesn't necessarily equate to success. There's a lot of hard working, highly skilled artists who produce top quality material, and don't have a penny to show for it, not least a sizable fortune and fan following. The truth is that, no matter how you look at it, he's incredibly lucky and privileged to have had the career he has had.

I don't argue that. He got lucky, just like every successful artist, that his work is liked by many people (and those same people are lucky that the artist created said work). Still, the point remains that he, as the creator, has merit for it, and he's not on our debt just like we are not on his.

[Cetra]

Sorry, but he doesn't. You got what you bought. He doesn't owe you anything more than you owe him.

Exactly. He worked for getting the money we gave him (or to be more precise all companies involved) and what they owe us for giving them our money is what we get all the time. I understand that people want a bit more from the authors they like but it is not their obligation and for those who actually come out and give us more, they actually try to make something satisfying for a great part of the fanbase. No one says we cannot like or dislike something but that would happen even if someone is as close to his original work as he/she was years ago because people expect totally different things and often even think whatever someone makes as a new part of a product, like Dragon Ball for example, it is so many things that are not the way they were before - which is possible but most of the time it is just a fan not accepting that is was not like he thought in the first place.

I also think some newly added parts are weird and are obviously made like they are because no one is perfect but still I appreciate what he does and for someone who was so relieved to be done with Dragon Ball we can be glad that he tries to make some fans happy nowadays. That counts for Toei as well.

[rereboy]

In my opinion, there is no greater compliment to an artist than people buying into their work. If Toriyama appreciated his fans, he would extend them the basic respect of taking his work seriously and at least giving due care and consideration to the changes he wishes to make to previously established narrative events.

I find the idea of him conducting himself without such simple considerations to be in poor taste to say the least. It's like Leonardo Da Vinci coming back to the Mona Lisa 20 years later, having lost all enthusiasm and interest in it, and deciding to scribble goofy additions all over the canvas for his own amusement, totally disregarding the the people who enjoy the work the way it was originally. It's almost tantamount to vandalism, only without a malicious intent - just a flagrant disregard for ones own work.

Like I said previously, the guy has more right than anyone to change anything he wants about Dragonball - it's his creation, but that doesn't mean I appreciate the way in which he's going about it. Heck, even if he wanted to change things up, if he went about it in the right way and showed he has the dedication and interest to carefully make the changes, I think the majority of people wouldn't be so bothered. Of course, there will always be people who don't like change and believe that things like this should always be left alone - but I'm not one of them, so long as it's done with due care and consideration, not just hauled straight out of his ass and slapped into a staged Q&A.

I'm sorry but I find that attitude terrible. He created a manga, you liked it and you bought it in order to enjoy it fully. Period. He doesn't owe you or any fans squat.

Personally, if I wrote a book that was successful and years later I added some info on it by my own accord and a fan came to me talking about how I "owe" the fans and things like that... I don't even have any words to describe how disgusted I would be by that attitude. That's how "Misery" type fans think.

[Blade]

I'm sorry but I find that attitude terrible. He created a manga, you liked it and you bought it in order to enjoy it fully. Period. He doesn't owe you or any fans squat.

I believe that when an artist releases his or her work out into the world, they have to take responsibility for it, and part of that responsibility should be an acceptance of the fact that it may influence the lives of others. Toriyama's extensive work on Dragonball has spawned a considerably large fanbase who know his work inside out, and in many cases, literally live and breathe Dragonball. It is a huge part of people's lives, and as such retrospective changes to a considerable body of work with its own complex lore should be treat delicately as a basic consideration, not only to his fans, but also to the legacy of his own creation. So for Toriyama to carelessly throw out content in little Q&A features that heavily contradicts a complex work that is revered the world over is a practice that I don't regard as being a particularly good one.

I mean, think about what you're saying: if you go to a restaurant and you find that the chefs have needlessly changed the recipe of your favorite dish, are you saying that you have no right to feel aggrieved?

I maintain completely, that I find it to be disrespectful to both his own work and the people who enjoy it to needlessly tamper with it at a later date without artistic merit or proper enthusiasm for the cause. Lucas' revisions to the original Star Wars trilogy are often brought up in comparison, but I don't think it's a fair comparison at all - as at least Lucas spent time over the changes he made, and at least he thought them through. He didn't just make shit up in an interview off the top of his head - he spent years and millions of dollars painstakingly carrying out his changes, and like them or loathe them, at least you get the impression that he cared about what he was doing.

Personally, if I wrote a book that was successful and years later I added some info on it by my own accord and a fan came to me talking about how I "owe" the fans and things like that... I don't even have any words to describe how disgusted I would be by that attitude. That's how "Misery" type fans think.

Then call me a 'misery' fan, because I think Toriyama owes the fans at least enough respect to take care and make a concerted effort when revising his work. I don't think that's unreasonable in the slightest.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I think I can kind of see what Blade means, at least half way. Yes, an author does owe something to his audience - but to me, that's mostly in regards to how he treats fans when he meets them. Toriyama, I get the feeling would be pretty graceful, albeit bashful, in a situation where his fans met him and praised him. An author being awful to his fans would be more something along the lines of how Alan Moore apparently acts.

An author should always weigh how he thinks fans are going to react to something when crafting a story, yes - but if it feels like something that the story has to have happen, that it's something the story is leading to and it would be untrue to the story to change that, then yes, they should try to stick to their guns if they can regardless of how fans may react. 'Course, that has more to do with first writing something rather than additions like what we're primarily talking about. ^_^;

Edit: Not sure how much I can agree with the 'responsibility for influence' of a work though, since that could then be applied to situations like...the first things that come to mind is back when Carrie came out and people blamed some real life revenge killings on King, or how violent video games are always blamed for real life tragedies. I realize that's not how you meant it Blade, but 'responsibility for influence' is a dangerous set of words that could be applied to those situations where I feel it shouldn't be. How a story influences someone has a lot more to do with the individual in question than it does the author's intentions.

[Luso Saiyan]

I believe that when an artist releases his or her work out into the world, they have to take responsibility for it, and part of that responsibility should be an acceptance of the fact that it may influence the lives of others.

He's not responsible for those who let themselves be influenced by it.

Toriyama's extensive work on Dragonball has spawned a considerably large fanbase who know his work inside out, and in many cases, literally live and breathe Dragonball. It is a huge part of people's lives,

Their choice, not his problem.

[rereboy]

I believe that when an artist releases his or her work out into the world, they have to take responsibility for it, and part of that responsibility should be an acceptance of the fact that it may influence the lives of others. Toriyama's extensive work on Dragonball has spawned a considerably large fanbase who know his work inside out, and in many cases, literally live and breathe Dragonball. It is a huge part of people's lives, and as such retrospective changes to a considerable body of work with its own complex lore should be treat delicately as a basic consideration, not only to his fans, but also to the legacy of his own creation. So for Toriyama to carelessly throw out content in little Q&A features that heavily contradicts a complex work that is revered the world over is a practice that I don't regard as being a particularly good one.

I mean, think about what you're saying: if you go to a restaurant and you find that the chefs have needlessly changed the recipe of your favorite dish, are you saying that you have no right to feel aggrieved?

I maintain completely, that I find it to be disrespectful to both his own work and the people who enjoy it to needlessly tamper with it at a later date without artistic merit or proper enthusiasm for the cause. Lucas' revisions to the original Star Wars trilogy are often brought up in comparison, but I don't think it's a fair comparison at all - as at least Lucas spent time over the changes he made, and at least he thought them through. He didn't just make shit up in an interview off the top of his head - he spent years and millions of dollars painstakingly carrying out his changes, and like them or loathe them, at least you get the impression that he cared about what he was doing.

I think your opinion speaks for itself so I won't add anything else to what I've already stated.

The only thing I will add is that the very notion that an ENTERTAINMENT artist is required, according to you, to take responsibility for what people do with their lives after seeing his work, is, IMO, laughable. That's like saying Toriyama is responsible if someone who has read Dragon Ball works out too much and injuries himself.

I agree fully with Gyt Kaliba. The only thing an author "owes" is being appreciative of the fan's support, that's it.

Then call me a 'misery' fan, because I think Toriyama owes the fans at least enough respect to take care and make a concerted effort when revising his work. I don't think that's unreasonable in the slightest.

I don't think you realize how incoherent you are being in this point. Toriyama has ALWAYS been this kind of author. He has NEVER been an author with that much care for consistency and details at all. That has never stopped you from loving his work. But now it does? . Just because you don't like the direction of Toriyama is taking with some of this info, don't mistake it for him suddenly being different. He has always been like this. This is not about his care at all because he has always been like this.

Also, have you even seen or read "Misery"? How someone can be "glad" to be labeled as that is beyond me.

[Cetra]

I agree with the responsibility in terms of that when you release something you - like always - have to be sure how you release it and if it might be offensive in some way (which should not always be the case in very extreme ways) it should at least be warned from reading/watching things. However owing so much respect that you come back after a long time and please millions of fans by knowing as much as possible about the topic to not disappoint them and bring a satisfying product for them - no. Of course it is always better if someone thinks thoroughly about it but it is not something you owe your fans, except this is your personal feeling as author and it does not go away any other way.

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeesh. I am not at all getting the derisiveness towards Blade's opinions here. I'll say that I don't believe a creator should pander to the fans' ideas and wishes because, honestly, as a general rule, fans are stupid and shouldn't have control over the creative process (see the DBZ Blu-rays, for example). Also, there's just no way to predict what's going to sell or be liked, even if the fans say it's what they want. The only thing a creator can do is try to do the best job he can.

However, some of you seem to be going so far in the other direction it's a bit sickening. It's reminding me of the argument of, "We should be grateful to FUNimation for any chance they give us to throw their money at them." The fact of the matter is, no art exists in a vacuum. If I was an artist/storyteller/what have you, you'd better believe I'd be grateful to my fans for choosing to support my work. Because it would be impossible for me to do it without them sustaining me. Fans don't have to buy stuff. They don't have to be fans. There are tons of other things people can be fans of. Or they can be fans of nothing. Dragon Ball fulfills no basic need of any person who enjoys it. It's a want. For Toriyama, though, it was how he made his livelihood. Toriyama needed the fans more than the fans needed him, and that's true for almost any creator and fan relationship.

Does that mean he needs to kowtow to their every whim? Does that means he needs to give up his reclusive lifestyle because it's his duty to fans to be at their beck and call, as a thread a couple of months ago suggested? Of course not! But to say a creator owes his/her fans nothing is giving yourselves far too little credit. And I do agree with Blade that Toriyama really needs to either stop screwing things up with these ridiculous tidbits he keeps making up on the spot or actually taking the time and care to follow his own franchise and understand it. And I don't think he's doing anything maliciously. I think he is genuinely trying to give the fans what they want. But like I said above, that could be part of the problem.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'll say that I don't believe a creator should pander to the fans' ideas and wishes because, honestly, as a general rule, fans are stupid and shouldn't have control over the creative process (see the DBZ Blu-rays, for example). Also, there's just no way to predict what's going to sell or be liked, even if the fans say it's what they want. The only thing a creator can do is try to do the best job he can.

However, some of you seem to be going so far in the other direction it's a bit sickening. It's reminding me of the argument of, "We should be grateful to FUNimation for any chance they give us to throw their money at them." The fact of the matter is, no art exists in a vacuum. If I was an artist/storyteller/what have you, you'd better believe I'd be grateful to my fans for choosing to support my work. Because it would be impossible for me to do it without them sustaining me. Fans don't have to buy stuff. They don't have to be fans. There are tons of other things people can be fans of. Or they can be fans of nothing. Dragon Ball fulfills no basic need of any person who enjoys it. It's a want. For Toriyama, though, it was how he made his livelihood. Toriyama needed the fans more than the fans needed him, and that's true for almost any creator and fan relationship.

Eh, I don't really want to get into the argument on this, especially since it's off topic and I also don't really feel this was directed at me to begin with - I at least hope my post didn't come off as derisive of Blade's opinions for the most part anyway - but there is a level to even this, I feel. Yes, fans shouldn't be expected to throw money at a company like FUNimation or Toei or anyone else just because the content exists, if it's not in a form that they want - and believe me, I have no interest in these Blurays either - but at the same time it would be nice if fan...entitlement, for lack of a better word...would at least pull back to the point that some don't act like FUNimation has literally kicked their puppy and then peed on the bruise just because they don't like a certain set of releases. As you yourself just said, Dragon Ball isn't a need, it's a want.

Again, not really the topic here, so I apologize for going somewhat off topic, but it still felt organic to the 'fans versus author' thing somewhat.

I guess basically what I'm trying to get at overall is that it's a two way street - the author or creators of a product owe it to their fans to at least treat them, as people with money that said company author/company wants (cuz there's no way around it, that is what it boils down to in the end), with a modicum of respect. At the same time though, more fans need to realize that the product they're paying for isn't theirs, it's someone else's story and experience, that they are hoping to share in. If they don't like every portion of said other person's material, then that's just a sad fact, rather than a violation of any kind of fictional 'agreement' between fan and creator.

[funrush]

I don't get what all the hate for Dragon ball Minus is, I thought it was a nice little expansion to the story. Who cares if it contradicts the Bardock special, that was the anime so it doesn't necessarily count for the manga anyway.

And in my honest opinion, him adding to it doesn't ruin it. Dragon Ball isn't really meant to be as serious as a lot of people take it to be. I mean this is made by the guy who just flat out forgot about a character's existence. So if he wants to add little silly things like a Jaco cameo, it's just fine by me. Feel free to disagree, that's just how I feel.

[Luso Saiyan]

The fact of the matter is, no art exists in a vacuum. If I was an artist/storyteller/what have you, you'd better believe I'd be grateful to my fans for choosing to support my work.

Nobody is arguing that. I would be pleased and thankful as well. Did he do otherwise? I don't think so.

Toriyama needed the fans more than the fans needed him, and that's true for almost any creator and fan relationship.

Again, that doesn't mean he owes us anything.

But to say a creator owes his/her fans nothing is giving yourselves far too little credit.

Credit for what? Liking his work? That's his merit. He was the one who did something I liked. His "reward" was my money for buying a copy of that same work. And that's it, nobody owes anyone.

[Ajay]

I don't get what all the hate for Dragon ball Minus is, I thought it was a nice little expansion to the story. Who cares if it contradicts the Bardock special, that was the anime so it doesn't necessarily count for the manga anyway.

Because it was awfully written. I have no problem with it contradicting anything. It's Toriyama, he has every right to do what he wants. It was just read like high schooler fan fiction. I was genuinely embarrassed for him having read it. Shoehorning in Super Saiyan God? Terrible. Awful misrepresentations of characters and just generally poor story telling. It was plain bad even excluding comparisons/contradictions to the Bardock special.

[TheGmGoken]

This is my opinion. Some non wrestling fans will not get this. But Toriyama is perhaps the Vince Russo of manga. Vince Russeo with Vincent Kennedy McMahon was a great combo and lead to awesome wrestling, storytelling, and a great product. However once Russo went to WCW let's just say it was worst thing ever. Arguably the worst booking in history. Not saying Toriyama recent manga and interviews are the worst things ever. But without his editor or someone who can look over him. Toriyama IMO isn't the best at making stuff up. Especially if we assume he still makes up shit on the spot. The story telling recently been awful and the interviews has arguably been lackluster and bullshit.

Hope that wasn't to harsh. Sorry for non wrestling fans if you don't understand.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Then call me a 'misery' fan, because I think Toriyama owes the fans at least enough respect to take care and make a concerted effort when revising his work. I don't think that's unreasonable in the slightest.

Wait, when did Toriyama show disrespect towards the fans?

[sintzu]

I don't get what all the hate for Dragon ball Minus is.

He turned Goku's origin into a copy of Superman's