Toriyama Is Ruining DragonBall?!

[ABED]

the fans who have made him so successful

This is completely the wrong way to look at it. It makes it seem like you did an act of charity. You enjoyed a product from the artist, end of transaction. Without the artist, there's nothing for you to be a fan of. The artist/author owes you nothing.

[B]

Sure, it may be subjective, but it does suck in comparison to the original DB which never had such crap.

This is you basically saying "Sure, my opinion is subjective, but it is fact." The actual truth is that the majority of the new material is inconsequential. It adds absolutely nothing to change Buu's origin, but there it is. It adds absolutely nothing to know 17's and 18's names, but there they are. I don't understand how you can have a problem with what amounts to basically character trivia.

I also don't understand the obsession with detailed "world structure", for lack of a better term. East Kaioushin doesn't stop being the character he is because the Kaiou have three contradicting origin stories. Same with Buu. I don't feel that any disservice is being done to the things that matter most; the characters or the themes of the story.

At this point, I want a guidebook to tell me the Tenkaichi Budokai happens on September 14th every nine years because that's how little something like that actually matters.

[Luso Saiyan]

I don't really know if I'd call it irrelevant or not, but once again, it's something that can go both ways - some people can sometimes be so blinded for their love of Dragon Ball in it's original form (the 42 volumes of manga) that they find it impossible to accept anything else new that comes out, regardless of how enjoyable they may be.

Which is their choice. The choice is always on the consumer. They can either accept it or ignore it.

[jjgp1112]

I don't see why people are getting so worked up about the tidbits and stuff.

Here's the way I see it: unless it's something that actually occurs in the serialized manga and isn't contradicted by its events (i.e. something unlike "Yeah, I know Supreme Kai said Bibidi created Buu, but I lied!"), you can make of it as you will. It especially helps that Toriyama words 90% of his tidbits as if he himself is a fan speculating on events, basically saying, "Hey, maybe it happened this way! Or maybe it didn't. I dunno, the only reason I'm even saying any of this is because you guys keep asking me for interviews to milk this cash cow for the next century."

At the end of the day, there's no "official" canon, so you can stick to what interpretation you see fit. Especially since the canonicity of Dragon Ball is such a mess to begin with. It's not that big of a deal, or at least doesn't warrant people sniping at each other like this is the in-Universe board.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

the fans who have made him so successful

This is completely the wrong way to look at it. It makes it seem like you did an act of charity. You enjoyed a product from the artist, end of transaction. Without the artist, there's nothing for you to be a fan of. The artist/author owes you nothing.

I agree that no author owes us anything (some people have used words like "debt" and "owe" -- I think that's going too far). But, in a very basic sense, we are responsible for Toriyama's success -- that is, everyone who bought a DVD, a comic, a video game etc. Obviously, there are other factors involved, but, at the end of the day, if we didn't buy his products, he wouldn't be so wealthy.



I think the argument being put forward by some people is that Toriyama is being disrespectful towards his fans by altering or needlessly expanding on the story that they've followed and loved throughout the years. And I understand the frustration with what's being done and the reasons behind it. But I don't think that should affect your enjoyment of the parts of the series you do like. Those should stand on their own merits, or whatever merits you see in them, and shouldn't have anything to do with what the author says or does ten years on. Maybe it does detract from the series to have shitty products made in the Dragon Ball name, but that shouldn't mean you won't be able to watch the Goku/Vegeta fight and say, "This is awesome".

[ABED]

if we didn't buy his products, he wouldn't be so wealthy.

And if he doesn't make something, there's nothing for us to be a fan of and buy. It's a symbiotic relationship, but it starts with the artist.

there's no "official" canon

That's like saying there's no story. Whatever Toriyama creates is official.

[VegettoEX]

That's like saying there's no story. Whatever Toriyama creates is official.

I use this example over and over, but it's a good one.

I don't care what Joss Whedon personally writes or says about Buffy/Angel post-broadcast. The series begins with the first TV episode of Buffy and ends with the last TV episode of Angel. Doesn't matter if Whedon himself personally wrote, drew, or approved anything else. Doesn't matter to me. It's not part of the story. It's "official" but I don't care about it. I don't care if I even LIKE IT or not. It just doesn't "count" to me.

So yes, it's a valid point to make that someone who only wants to care about the 519 chapters serialized in Weekly Shonen Jump doesn't have to care about these new tidbits, even if they're "official", and not necessary not caring in a mean-spirited way.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

if we didn't buy his products, he wouldn't be so wealthy.

And if he doesn't make something, there's nothing for us to be a fan of and buy. It's a symbiotic relationship, but it starts with the artist.

Right, but I'm not seeing how this contradicts anything that I said. Could you elaborate?

[Luso Saiyan]

But, in a very basic sense, we are responsible for Toriyama's success

No, we aren't. We are responsible for buying something that we like. If his work is liked by so many people, then it's because of him and what he created (therefore it's his merit).

[Dbzk1999]

That's like saying there's no story. Whatever Toriyama creates is official.

I use this example over and over, but it's a good one.

I don't care what Joss Whedon personally writes or says about Buffy/Angel post-broadcast. The series begins with the first TV episode of Buffy and ends with the last TV episode of Angel. Doesn't matter if Whedon himself personally wrote, drew, or approved anything else. Doesn't matter to me. It's not part of the story. It's "official" but I don't care about it. I don't care if I even LIKE IT or not. It just doesn't "count" to me.

So yes, it's a valid point to make that someone who only wants to care about the 519 chapters serialized in Weekly Shonen Jump doesn't have to care about these new tidbits, even if they're "official", and not necessary not caring in a mean-spirited way.

Wouldn't that be personal canon though
How I see it: there's official canon (what the author states is canon to his/her piece of literature
Then there's personal canon where the fan themselves decide what they feel is canon
You can ignore the stuff you don't want but you gotta be ready for something like an "official" timeline that includes those events

[rereboy]

the fans who have made him so successful

This is completely the wrong way to look at it. It makes it seem like you did an act of charity. You enjoyed a product from the artist, end of transaction. Without the artist, there's nothing for you to be a fan of. The artist/author owes you nothing.

I agree that no author owes us anything (some people have used words like "debt" and "owe" -- I think that's going too far). But, in a very basic sense, we are responsible for Toriyama's success -- that is, everyone who bought a DVD, a comic, a video game etc. Obviously, there are other factors involved, but, at the end of the day, if we didn't buy his products, he wouldn't be so wealthy.



I think the argument being put forward by some people is that Toriyama is being disrespectful towards his fans by altering or needlessly expanding on the story that they've followed and loved throughout the years. And I understand the frustration with what's being done and the reasons behind it. But I don't think that should affect your enjoyment of the parts of the series you do like. Those should stand on their own merits, or whatever merits you see in them, and shouldn't have anything to do with what the author says or does ten years on. Maybe it does detract from the series to have shitty products made in the Dragon Ball name, but that shouldn't mean you won't be able to watch the Goku/Vegeta fight and say, "This is awesome".

The notion of respect or disrespect regarding the direction that he takes with his story/franchise and what he adds to it is also going too far for this reason:

It doesn't matter what Toriyama does now regarding the franchise, it could be most awesome and consistent ideas ever, there will be fans out there that will NOT like it and will feel that the choices he made with the franchises are basically shit and completely needless.

So, to some people, no matter what the author does, he will be "disrespecting" them. Literally, the only thing he could do to not "disrespect" anyone would be to do nothing regarding the franchise. In fact, I take that back, since I'm sure that him not doing anything could also be viewed as "disrespecting" the fans that would like new stuff.

And that's why those notions regarding what his choices towards the franchise are is also going way too far. The only respect the author owes the fans is being appreciative of them, that's it. Anything to do with the direction of the franchise and the creative process are his exclusive domain and notions of owing or being respectful towards the fans simply don't make any sense when applied to it.

Those notions are precisely the kind of stuff I'm sure the villain of Misery thought as she was cutting the author's legs off... "He owes me better than this... How dares he disrespect me by killing my favorite character in the story...". Ridiculous.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

No, we aren't. We are responsible for buying something that we like.

In other words, part of what we spent eventually went to Toriyama, contributing to his wealth and therefore "success" (insofar as success means making a lot of money). We got something out of it, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we're giving him our money.

If his work is liked by so many people, then it's because of him and what he created (therefore it's his merit).

Merit plays a big role, but there are other factors. Most notably, luck. Right place at the right time, basically. I don't know the details of how DB got published and made into a TV show, but it doesn't matter. Why? Because not everyone gets the opportunity to make art and not everyone gets noticed by companies etc. who are willing to take a chance on them.

[Gaffer Tape]

No, we aren't. We are responsible for buying something that we like.

In other words, part of what we spent eventually went to Toriyama, contributing to his wealth and therefore "success" (insofar as success means making a lot of money). We got something out of it, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we're giving him our money.

It goes farther than that. If Dragon Ball hadn't cultivated fans, Shonen Jump would have dropped the series, and there would be no Dragon Ball beyond that. Oh, sure, Toriyama might have just kept drawing for its own sake because of his deep passion to tell the Dragon Ball story even if no one read it. But considering even he admits he did it for the money, that's highly unlikely. Dragon Ball would have been quit and forgotten, and Toriyama would have been far too busy working on a fishing boat or something (or, more realistically, since he was already established, start a new series since I just know someone's gonna jump on me for even joking about that) to have had time to work on it even if he'd wanted to.

So even though ABED is arguing on a different "side" than I am, I perfectly agree (and almost said it myself until I saw he'd said it already) that the relationship between creator and fan is symbiotic. Dragon Ball wouldn't exist without Toriyama, but it also wouldn't exist (or at least wouldn't exist past the first few chapters) without fans to sustain it.

[rereboy]

In other words, part of what we spent eventually went to Toriyama, contributing to his wealth and therefore "success" (insofar as success means making a lot of money). We got something out of it, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we're giving him our money.

So...? You bought something, you enjoyed it or not, the author of that thing appreciates that you bought it and appreciates that you enjoyed it if that's the case. End of story.

You didn't buy with your money the right to demand of him exactly what you personally want to happen with the franchise in the future.

Merit plays a big role, but there are other factors. Most notably, luck. Right place at the right time, basically. I don't know the details of how DB got published and made into a TV show, but it doesn't matter. Why? Because not everyone gets the opportunity to make art and not everyone gets noticed by companies etc. who are willing to take a chance on them.

He wouldn't be where he is without merit, no matter how much luck he had in the past.

[Luso Saiyan]

but that doesn't change the fact that we're giving him our money.

In exchange for his work.

Merit plays a big role, but there are other factors. Most notably, luck.

Your point? Lucky or not, he made something that people like, and these people spent money because of that. He's responsible for his own success, for the work he created and the choices he made. Not me, you or any other fan. Having clients/fans is just a component of success, like distribution of the product/work.

[ABED]

How I see it: there's official canon (what the author states is canon to his/her piece of literature

I don't see how there has to be an explicit statement. It's his story, so why wouldn't his story be official?

No, we aren't. We are responsible for buying something that we like.

In other words, part of what we spent eventually went to Toriyama, contributing to his wealth and therefore "success" (insofar as success means making a lot of money). We got something out of it, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we're giving him our money.

If his work is liked by so many people, then it's because of him and what he created (therefore it's his merit).

Merit plays a big role, but there are other factors. Most notably, luck. Right place at the right time, basically. I don't know the details of how DB got published and made into a TV show, but it doesn't matter. Why? Because not everyone gets the opportunity to make art and not everyone gets noticed by companies etc. who are willing to take a chance on them.

You aren't giving him money out of charity. You gave him money for a service/product.

Yes, there are things outside of his control, but unless he creates the product, there's nothing for you to be a fan of. The people that took a chance on him is because they thought there was merit. If he gives you a product, and you pay for it, end of transaction. I fail to see how anyone owes anything more than perhaps gratitude.

[funrush]

The way I see it, Toriyama doesn't care an immense deal about Dragon Ball. That is not me putting him down, I just don't think he is passionate about it.

I use to get this impression from him, until Battle of Gods rolled around. I don't have any specific quotes with me, but some of the stuff he tossed around in interviews relating to the film kinda made me think again. It really sounded like he put a lot of thought into everything he did for BOG and his references to DBE had me going, "Huh, I guess he really did care."

As for the new tidbits he's been putting out there, a lot of them are so out there that it's easy to just disregard them. It also helps that these pieces of information are coming 20 years after the fact. At the same time, I actually find it kind of embarrassing. Like, I just wanna tap him on the shoulder, have a quiet word with him and say, "Hey, I think you should reconsider some of these things."

I feel as if he didn't care until BoG, like maybe dredged on drawing it and he was glad once it was finally over. And now he looks back on it with fondness, a sort of "that was great" nostalgia thing. Kinda like how the Beatles didn't really care too much for the Beatles as a whole for a long time, but now it seems like Paul and Ringo look at it with a nostalgia.

I've actually liked a lot of the new Toriyama info mostly, the new Buu origin is the only thing that I'm not exactly a fan of. And I enjoyed Minus for the most part, my only complaint about it was the one already said, about Freeza mentioning Super Saiyan God being a bit odd. I guess it's his way of mentioning that Super Saiyan God, or even BoG as a whole if you wish to venture that far, is canon in the manga universe. Very weird way to do it, I don't know why he chose to do it that way but what's done is done.

[Dbzk1999]

How I see it: there's official canon (what the author states is canon to his/her piece of literature

I don't see how there has to be an explicit statement. It's his story, so why wouldn't his story be official?

No, we aren't. We are responsible for buying something that we like.

In other words, part of what we spent eventually went to Toriyama, contributing to his wealth and therefore "success" (insofar as success means making a lot of money). We got something out of it, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we're giving him our money.

If his work is liked by so many people, then it's because of him and what he created (therefore it's his merit).

Merit plays a big role, but there are other factors. Most notably, luck. Right place at the right time, basically. I don't know the details of how DB got published and made into a TV show, but it doesn't matter. Why? Because not everyone gets the opportunity to make art and not everyone gets noticed by companies etc. who are willing to take a chance on them.

You aren't giving him money out of charity. You gave him money for a service/product.

Yes, there are things outside of his control, but unless he creates the product, there's nothing for you to be a fan of. The people that took a chance on him is because they thought there was merit. If he gives you a product, and you pay for it, end of transaction. I fail to see how anyone owes anything more than perhaps gratitude.

I think you missed the point when I say the author states I refer to him making it pretty much

[hleV]

Sure, it may be subjective, but it does suck in comparison to the original DB which never had such crap.

This is you basically saying "Sure, my opinion is subjective, but it is fact." The actual truth is that the majority of the new material is inconsequential.

No, I'm saying that it's subjective whether the new DB-related shit from Toriyama sucks or not in general, however it's not subjective that it sucks in comparison to the original DB. Basically with the shit Toriyama does/says now he would never have gotten his "stuff" popular, but some may not see it as a complete garbage neither.

[jjgp1112]

Sure, it may be subjective, but it does suck in comparison to the original DB which never had such crap.

This is you basically saying "Sure, my opinion is subjective, but it is fact." The actual truth is that the majority of the new material is inconsequential.

No, I'm saying that it's subjective whether the new DB-related shit from Toriyama sucks or not in general, however it's not subjective that it sucks in comparison to the original DB. Basically with the shit Toriyama does/says now he would never have gotten his "stuff" popular, but some may not see it as a complete garbage neither.

Oh, really? According to whom?