Toriyama Is Ruining DragonBall?!

[rereboy]

No, I'm saying that it's subjective whether the new DB-related shit from Toriyama sucks or not in general, however it's not subjective that it sucks in comparison to the original DB.

Yes, it is. Being good or not is a subjective notion and there's nothing stopping someone from thinking that the new stuff is as good as the original because its all opinion based.

[samuraix123]

Sure, it may be subjective, but it does suck in comparison to the original DB which never had such crap.

This is you basically saying "Sure, my opinion is subjective, but it is fact." The actual truth is that the majority of the new material is inconsequential. It adds absolutely nothing to change Buu's origin, but there it is. It adds absolutely nothing to know 17's and 18's names, but there they are. I don't understand how you can have a problem with what amounts to basically character trivia.

I also don't understand the obsession with detailed "world structure", for lack of a better term. East Kaioushin doesn't stop being the character he is because the Kaiou have three contradicting origin stories. Same with Buu. I don't feel that any disservice is being done to the things that matter most; the characters or the themes of the story.

At this point, I want a guidebook to tell me the Tenkaichi Budokai happens on September 14th every nine years because that's how little something like that actually matters.

I'm sorry for going off track for a second but I didn't know Android 17 & 18 names were released? What are they? sorry for not knowing this.... I know it's going to probably be right here on this site somewhere too. lol I'll go check while I wait to see here.

Edit - here http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=27134 "Lapis" and 18 is "Lazuli" huh? I don't know if I like those names... I believe VegettoEX also said Mark was Mr. Satan's name? maybe? sorry for going off track here.

[ABED]

I think you missed the point when I say the author states I refer to him making it pretty much

I'm not sure what this means.

[Luso Saiyan]

I'm sorry for going off track for a second but I didn't know Android 17 & 18 names were released? What are they? sorry for not knowing this.... I know it's going to probably be right here on this site somewhere too. lol I'll go check while I wait to see here.

I see you've already discovered the names, but here's the full interview anyway.

[Zephyr]

It especially helps that Toriyama words 90% of his tidbits as if he himself is a fan speculating on events, basically saying, "Hey, maybe it happened this way! Or maybe it didn't. I dunno, the only reason I'm even saying any of this is because you guys keep asking me for interviews to milk this cash cow for the next century."

This is the big thing here that people seem to be forgetting. In regards to the tidbits, Toriyama's being asked to give answers to shit he's never thought of before, on the spot.

If anyone's "ruining" Dragon Ball, it's the horrible interviewers not providing Toriyama with the full context of the implications to the answers to the questions that are being asked, so that the answer we get doesn't conflict with the fan-perceived established lore or the series.

The lack of quality fact-checkers and continuity experts at Shueisha and Toei being delegated to help Toriyama out also hurts the whole thing, which contribute to the minor headaches Battle of Gods creates, and the major ones Dragon Ball Minus creates.

If Toriyama's ruining Dragon Ball, Toei, Sheuisha, and the people asking these interview questions are only instigating and encouraging it.

But like many have said, he's not editing the already released chapters/episodes. He's not ruining anything. He's simply adding more stuff on the side, that matters so little apparently, that he contradicts, forgets about, or disregards even that a few years down the road.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

It especially helps that Toriyama words 90% of his tidbits as if he himself is a fan speculating on events, basically saying, "Hey, maybe it happened this way! Or maybe it didn't. I dunno, the only reason I'm even saying any of this is because you guys keep asking me for interviews to milk this cash cow for the next century."

This is the big thing here that people seem to be forgetting. In regards to the tidbits, Toriyama's being asked to give answers to shit he's never thought of before, on the spot.

Bingo. Even an expository sentence laying out why the question is of interest to anyone to begin with would help. Catching up on his own lore for Battle of Gods is hardly a cure-all, both as a forgetful author who does not take his stuff too seriously or for the minutia most of these questions have been.

Otherwise, his authorial imperative, I cannot take them from him; if he does not take minutia seriously, so be it. Particularly in my case where nothing has really rattled me so far because Bardock's only thematic point is to highlight how different Goku is from other Saiyains, his own character has always been simple and a mite ambiguous, and most everything else just makes sense. Nor, as has been said many times, does any of it matter if it does not affect existing material.

It's kind of a dark humor if you really look into it. All of the good Saiyans managed to achieve something that had never been heard of before, the Super Saiyan God...still got killed out leaving us with pretty much only the vicious Saiyans that we've known all along. I dunno about you guys, but I find that a lot more acceptable then the original plan by far.

Bringing this back up again, I love the gentle saiyains angle. My first reaction to the full scope of Super Saiyain God was simply "Goku was a human, with all the full range of emotions of one- inhibited by his simple nature and lack of socialization, not his genes- until Toriyama literally woke up one day and decided he wasn't. There is no way in hell a race as long-lived as the Saiyains did not produce non-violent types." Suddenly there is no problem with the concept at all- particularly when its made clear that the gentle saiyains were greatly in the minority, and thus the Saiyain story as we were given it by Vegeta still stands.

Really, Gine's existence means nothing if Goku's good nature still rests on him smashing his head and getting a chance to reset his violent Saiyain programming. Goku's victory was always that he achieved the strength and mindset he did with zero knowledge of Saiyain ideology, combat training, or knowledge of his anatomy; rejecting them by how he chose to live and releasing legendary power because of his mindset was the right one all along. That he had a handful of predecessors does not mean Goku is suddenly not special; it means he revived an entire Saiyain way of thinking entirely in his own experiences- and because of that disconnect, probably did it better.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I don't care what Joss Whedon personally writes or says about Buffy/Angel post-broadcast. The series begins with the first TV episode of Buffy and ends with the last TV episode of Angel. Doesn't matter if Whedon himself personally wrote, drew, or approved anything else. Doesn't matter to me. It's not part of the story. It's "official" but I don't care about it. I don't care if I even LIKE IT or not. It just doesn't "count" to me.

Sorry, but this irked me a little. It would be different if Whedon himself had decided to end Angel, but he hadn't. They weren't renewed. So he continued the story in another medium. By that logic, Serenity isn't canon to Firefly, because it's in a different medium and came after the series ended.

[Mewzard]

Sorry, but this irked me a little. It would be different if Whedon himself had decided to end Angel, but he hadn't. They weren't renewed. So he continued the story in another medium. By that logic, Serenity isn't canon to Firefly, because it's in a different medium and came after the series ended.

Agreed, it reminds me of Gargoyles. It ended because Disney botched the third season utterly and took things out of the hands of Greg Weisman. All these years later, he still had plans, story ideas, continuity bits, and even got to continue his story via a 12 issue comic (that was forced to end early once again thanks to Disney) and six issue mini series.

They may not have been with the cartoon, and had come nearly a decade after it ended, but they were far truer a continuation than the Goliath Chronicles ever were.

Toriyama definitely needs an editor for the little things to remind him what's been done and if he's changing prior ideas, but even with those little problems, the man seems to be enjoying himself working on the series (something one could fairly argue had changed at the tail end of things back in the 90s).

He's not ruining the old work, it exists as it is. He's just adding to the backstory and to some modern events. If you don't like it, feel free to keep it from your personal headcanon (that's within any fan's rights), but when it comes to someone's work (especially when they create it and have some say), they should feel free to return to it if the passion truly returns.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

You didn't buy with your money the right to demand of him exactly what you personally want to happen with the franchise in the future.

I never made any such claim. Perhaps you're confusing me with another user. All I said was everyone who bought a DB-related product is partly responsible for Toriyama's success. Toriyama can do whatever he wants with the series. It doesn't follow that because we've bought his DVDs, we should have artistic control over the franchise. We didn't buy stocks in the franchise; we bought a product. I don't understand how people have inferred that from what I said, except by confusing me with someone else who actually said that. And, now that I think of it, I think that assumption might be implicit in other people's responses to me as well.

He wouldn't be where he is without merit, no matter how much luck he had in the past.

I agree, but that statement works the other way around as well ("he wouldn't be where he is without luck, no matter how talented he was".)

So even though ABED is arguing on a different "side" than I am, I perfectly agree (and almost said it myself until I saw he'd said it already) that the relationship between creator and fan is symbiotic. Dragon Ball wouldn't exist without Toriyama, but it also wouldn't exist (or at least wouldn't exist past the first few chapters) without fans to sustain it.

Again, I completely agree with this. But I'm still not seeing how it contradicts anything I've said. Maybe I should've been clearer, but I hope what I've said in this post clarifies things.

Yes, there are things outside of his control, but unless he creates the product, there's nothing for you to be a fan of. The people that took a chance on him is because they thought there was merit. If he gives you a product, and you pay for it, end of transaction. I fail to see how anyone owes anything more than perhaps gratitude.

I think this ties in to what I was saying above. Firstly, I agree completely. Again, we bought a product; we didn't buy stocks. Toriyama doesn't owe it to us to take the series in a certain direction, or even to leave the series alone. But, as you said, he absolutely should be grateful to his fans for buying his products over the years. Tons of stuff get released that hardly anyone buys. Even critically acclaimed stuff. In the sense that success means lots of sales, at the end of the day, we are responsible for his success. I think to deny that is to go to the opposite extreme of what some people have argued on this thread.

Your point? Lucky or not, he made something that people like, and these people spent money because of that. He's responsible for his own success, for the work he created and the choices he made.

You said that merit is the only thing that determines whether something is created and is successful. And I said, no, there are other factors, such as being born into circumstances where talent can be fostered, being at the right place at the right time, getting noticed by someone who's willing to take a chance on you etc.

Not me, you or any other fan. Having clients/fans is just a component of success, like distribution of the product/work.

This is really inane. If it doesn't get distributed, who is going to see it? If no one sees it, how are people going to know if they want to buy it? And if no one buys it, how can it be called successful?

[Luso Saiyan]

You said that merit is the only thing that determines whether something is created and is successful.

No, I didn't. I said that if the series is successful it's because of him, what he created and the choices he made (that's what made us buy it).

This is really inane. If it doesn't get distributed, who is going to see it?

Read again.

[rereboy]

I never made any such claim. Perhaps you're confusing me with another user. All I said was everyone who bought a DB-related product is partly responsible for Toriyama's success. Toriyama can do whatever he wants with the series. It doesn't follow that because we've bought his DVDs, we should have artistic control over the franchise. We didn't buy stocks in the franchise; we bought a product. I don't understand how people have inferred that from what I said, except by confusing me with someone else who actually said that. And, now that I think of it, I think that assumption might be implicit in other people's responses to me as well.

I didn't confuse you with anyone. You basically stated that an author can disrespect the fans with the choices he makes regarding the franchise and its direction. Not only did I explain to you in another post that you didn't quote how that doesn't make sense, but such a notion would also imply that a fan, just because he bough a product from the author and because he is a fan, has some sort of right to demand of him what will happen with the franchise in the future because, without such a right, how could the author be disrespecting the fans?

I agree, but that statement works the other way around as well ("he wouldn't be where he is without luck, no matter how talented he was".)

I disagree. Its perfectly possible for an author to have great success without having any noteworthy luck due purely to his great talent. In fact, there are plenty of authors out there who, instead of luck, have bad luck, and it takes them years to be published and to be noticed, but eventually, their quality is noticed and they have success.

[VegettoEX]

"Read again" is in no way an acceptable response in this community.

I understand how there are multiple viewpoints here, and I'm flabbergasted that some folks can't see that. Please take a step back, re-read your posts before making them, and realize your viewpoint on an author's relationship with their audience is not the only one, and certainly not the only valid one.

You're all Dragon Ball fans, so please act that way.

[Luso Saiyan]

"Read again" is in no way an acceptable response in this community.

How so? He clearly misread my post, so I merely advised him to read again.

[ABED]

there are other factors, such as being born into circumstances where talent can be fostered, being at the right place at the right time, getting noticed by someone who's willing to take a chance on you etc.

How many people never put themselves out there to get noticed? Your arguments sound disturbingly familiar to "you didn't build that."

[Gaffer Tape]

So even though ABED is arguing on a different "side" than I am, I perfectly agree (and almost said it myself until I saw he'd said it already) that the relationship between creator and fan is symbiotic. Dragon Ball wouldn't exist without Toriyama, but it also wouldn't exist (or at least wouldn't exist past the first few chapters) without fans to sustain it.

Again, I completely agree with this. But I'm still not seeing how it contradicts anything I've said. Maybe I should've been clearer, but I hope what I've said in this post clarifies things.

I don't think I was disagreeing with you.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

You said that merit is the only thing that determines whether something is created and is successful.
No, I didn't. I said that if the series is successful it's because of him, what he created and the choices he made (that's what made us buy it).

That's basically the same thing (the merit of Toriyama as an author, and the merit of his work). Show me how they differ, and I'll be happy to respond.

How so? He clearly misread my post, so I merely advised him to read again.

What VegettoEX said. Tell me what you took issue with in my response, and, again, I'll be happy to respond to it.

I didn't confuse you with anyone. You basically stated that an author can disrespect the fans with the choices he makes regarding the franchise and its direction. Not only did I explain to you in another post that you didn't quote how that doesn't make sense, but such a notion would also imply that a fan, just because he bough a product from the author and because he is a fan, has some sort of right to demand of him what will happen with the franchise in the future because, without such a right, how could the author be disrespecting the fans?

Are you referring to this post?

I think the argument being put forward by some people is that Toriyama is being disrespectful towards his fans by altering or needlessly expanding on the story that they've followed and loved throughout the years. And I understand the frustration with what's being done and the reasons behind it. But I don't think that should affect your enjoyment of the parts of the series you do like. Those should stand on their own merits, or whatever merits you see in them, and shouldn't have anything to do with what the author says or does ten years on. Maybe it does detract from the series to have shitty products made in the Dragon Ball name, but that shouldn't mean you won't be able to watch the Goku/Vegeta fight and say, "This is awesome".

Here, I'm simply restating one of the main arguments in this thread put forward by other users, and that even if that contention holds water, it shouldn't be an issue to individual fans. I think that should be clear. Where did I even imply that this was a viewpoint I personally held?

I disagree. Its perfectly possible for an author to have great success without having any noteworthy luck due purely to his great talent. In fact, there are plenty of authors out there who, instead of luck, have bad luck, and it takes them years to be published and to be noticed, but eventually, their quality is noticed and they have success.

What's the difference between "noteworthy luck" and "luck"? To me, there is none. Luck is luck. Luck is being born in a part of the world where you don't have to worry about where your next meal will come from and can instead focus your energy on creating works of art. How many highly intelligent/creative people do you think are born into squalor and can't do anything with their talents because they're too hungry to think every day? Some of them get noticed and get opportunities; some don't. That's luck too.

Your arguments sound disturbingly familiar to "you didn't build that."

No, I agree that you are, ultimately, the one who put the bricks together to build the house. But there's also the fact that you were able to receive an education, have opportunities to get better over time etc. See above.

I don't think I was disagreeing with you.

Well, that's one person.

[Luso Saiyan]

That's basically the same thing (the merit of Toriyama as an author, and the merit of his work). Show me how they differ, and I'll be happy to respond.

What a reversal of the burden of proof...

No, it's obviously not the same thing. Merit comes as a result of work and success, not the other way around.

Tell me what you took issue with in my response, and, again, I'll be happy to respond to it.

I said that distribution, like clients/fans, is a component of success. How can you, after what I wrote, claim that as inane and question the importance I give to distribution? I'm clearly saying that it's important.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

No, it's obviously not the same thing. Merit comes as a result of work and success, not the other way around.

Define "merit" for me, because I can't make any sense of what you've just said (and while you're at, it define "burden of proof" for me as well).

I said that distribution, like clients/fans, is a component of success. How can you, after what I wrote, claim that as inane and question the importance of distribution? I'm clearly saying that it's important.

I've never questioned the importance of distribution. I think I've implied and said multiple times in this thread that it is important.

[Luso Saiyan]

Define "merit" for me, because I can't make any sense of what you've just said (and while you're at, it define "burden of proof" for me as well).

Come on, seriously? Merit: The quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

When I mentioned reversal of burden of proof, I was implying that I was the one who should be questioning you of something you claimed I said but actually didn't. Not the other way around.

I've never questioned the importance of distribution. I think I've implied and said multiple times in this thread that it is important.

And I said the very same thing. And you quoted me and questioned the (supposedly lack of) importance I give to distribution. Hence why I advised you to read again. Because I said, more than once already, that distribution is a component of success.

[TheUltimateVegito]

He hasn't done anything noteworthy in years.

What would you say was the last noteworthy thing he's done?