Why did Toriyama bother writing Dragon Ball Z?

[kei17]

Again, thatdbzguy, why do you keep ignoring my answer to your question? Did you really create this topic to get an asnwer to your question or was disrupting the community by repeating yourself the main purpose?

[B]

http://www.funnyjunk.com/channel/animem ... wGKz/37#37

Here's a link for you all.

Read through these comments. Someone compared Bleach's first episode to DBZ's first episode, and explained through great detail why Bleach's first few episodes were full of depth, art, and maturity.

DBZ's was childish, unrelatable, had no artistic substance, and spoonfed things to the viewers.

You've listed a bunch of things that aren't mutually exclusive. You're comparing apples and tomatoes.

How does this foster discussion? Why do I have to read someone else's well-thought out post on another website to gauge where your head is at? You make a claim such as "DB has no artistic substance" and then what? How is anyone supposed to engange with you on any meaningful level when we have no frame of reference for what you're talking about when you use buzzwords such as "depth," "maturity," or "artistic substance?" These mean different things to different people, and that's the heart of the problem with every post you make. You absolutely refuse to entertain the notion of subjectivity and everyone else is just left shrugging.

[thatdbzguy]

Again, thatdbzguy, why do you keep ignoring my answer to your question? Did you really create this topic to get an asnwer to your question or was disrupting the community by
repeating yourself the main purpose?

I'm not ignoring it, I just see nothing in your response to debate about.

Other posters, not so much.

[trick007z]

The first is that it seems to be a point in the story where the flow of the narrative is completely cut off. There is some fluidity in the transitions from the 22nd tournament to the Piccolo arc, to the 23rd tournament, to the Saiyan arc, and finally the Freeza arc. It all kind of feels natural, like Goku has spent all this time trying to become the world's best fighter, he loses a few tournaments, and finally wins one while saving the Earth from a demon. Then after he achieves his goals of becoming Earth's strongest, they bring in the alien Saiyans to give him more of a challenge and reveal the long lasting secrets of his great strength. This also ties into a lot of the early concepts of the series with the Great Ape transformation and the tail. From there, the transition to the Freeza arc is easy with Goku needing to revive his friends and fighting this galactic tyrant, winning by fulfilling an alien legend and becoming the strongest warrior in the universe.

I have to disagree there. There is no fluidity in the transition from the 23rd Budokai to the Saiyajin arc. If Toriyama didn't drew Roshi at the end saying "It isn't over yet!", the Saiyajin arc would have come from nowhere.

Then.... everything stops. Out of nowhere Freeza is suddenly alive again (which imo devalued the fantastic end to the last arc). Out of nowhere, this Saiyan from the future comes (who, likewise is the result of an out of left field pairing of Vegeta and Bulma). This doctor who we've never heard of before has been given the capabilities to create robots surpassing the guy who was the strongest and most feared tyrant in the universe since (in story) prior to the manga started, while also being stronger than the legendary Super Saiyan who was so hyped in the last arc. Goku gets a virus and conveniently dies, but luckily there was a convenient cure from Trunks timeline. Even Cell comes out of nowhere. Just a lot of coincidences piling up, and it coming off as so un-organic.

I loved the time travel plot twist, thought it was excellent, just as good as Goku being revealed as a Saiyajin. You must understand the feeling of seeing a villain which took a hundred chapters to beat getting killed by a stranger, who is later revealed to be a Saiyajin, a Super Saiyajin nonetheless, who came from the future. Mind-boggling, and a great start to a new arc. Cell didn't really come from nowhere, I don't think, but that's up to interpretation.

I don't think the technology is an issue. It's Dragon Ball, things happen without reason. Bulma at 16 years old could build a Dragon Ball radar, when Freeza's army, which had much better technology, didn't think to make it or couldn't make it. Gravity chambers and faster than light spaceships were also built. #8 was also stronger than Goku when he destroyed the RRA, we never know how strong he was. This means Gero had capabilities of building really strong robots, and he used those capabilities in the ~15 years between the defeat of the RRA and the start of the Android arc. I actually liked that the Android arc had connections to the RRA arc.

Then all of a sudden everybody can become a Super Saiyan. Toriyama built up a huge threat in these Androids, and they weren't really all that menacing compared to Piccolo, the Saiyans, or Freeza. The multiple timeline thing just becomes convoluted. Trunks feeling like this Android threat was so important that he had to travel time to prevent (and in this case I will say that this is a blatant Terminator rip off), but then leaving out extremely relevant information, like what these things look like. Cell not really having a goal besides perfection.

Everyone? With reason, no? Vegeta after an extensive amount of training, Trunks after years of suffering. You can only point the "Everyone becomes a Super Saiyajin without reason" shtick to Gohan. And he became one because of his hidden potential: something that was hyped since the beginning of Z.

That's because the Androids weren't supposed to be menacing, the present ones at least. They were human. Cell was the real threat. Cell's goal was to be #1 in the universe after perfection, just like Freeza's and Piccolo Daimao's.

Then they just throw at us a bunch of plot points we've seen before. Piccolo merging with another Namekian (though I will admit it was cool, because it was with Kami). A Saiyan (Gohan in this instance) getting angry and transforming to a new level (Super Saiyan 2 this time). Goku sacrificing himself. The kind hearted Android 16 (funny how 8+8=16).

Piccolo merging with a Namekian was needed, it completes Piccolo's character development, showing Kami is finally proud of his change enough to allow Piccolo to fuse with him. It was a great moment, and a necessary moment. Again, Gohan was because of his hidden potential, something hyped up since the beginning, also something necessary. You can blame Goku's sacrifice on his inner struggle. And now you might be thinking "Inner struggle? What inner struggle, you're acting like Goku is a complex character". And while he may not be complex, Goku's guilt (for putting Gohan's life on the line and giving Cell a Senzu) took over him and made him think that staying dead was the better choice. Although Goku's character development became complete in the Freeza arc, I feel this was a welcome addition. #16 was more involved with the plot than #8 was, so in that aspect, he's a better version.

Not to mention, for the villains that supposedly succeeded in another timeline, they probably accomplished the least in comparison to everyone outside of Pilaf. I mean come on, the Red Ribbon Army were a force that menaced Earth, Tenshinhan won the tournament, Piccolo menaced the Earth for years before being captured and then was crusading at king's castle before Goku stopped him, Raditz forced Goku to sacrifice himself, the other Saiyans wiped out nearly all the Z fighters, Freeza was conquering the universe, destroyed planet Vegeta, and committed genocide on Namek, and Buu blew up the Earth. What did the Androids do? Cell killed a bunch of nameless people and Android 20 caused some destruction in one city.

That's nitpicking, now. Just because Buu, for example, blew up Earth doesn't make him a better character than Cell or the androids. It might make him a better villain, because he got the job done, though.

Then again, opinions are opinions. I personally found the Cell saga to be excellent and while certainly not the best, was a great addition to the manga.

I respectfully disagree with some of that. I still feel like there is fluidity in the way thins go from the 23rd tournament to the Saiyan arc for a number of reasons. First off, the events are telegraphed, Goku has no new challenges, Piccolo is training to kill Goku, and Chi Chi marries and starts a family with Goku. That's all consistent with what we see at the end of the gap. Also the Saiyan arc reveals some of the secrets about Goku that have been teased for years.

The biggest problems I have are.. 1. still the way Trunks randomly comes in and kills Freeza. Sorry I hate that. It would be like if there was a new Harry Potter book and Voldemort is revealed to be alive after everything they did to beat him in the last book, and then some nobody just destroys him. There are better ways to build up a villain than to belittle the previous one in such a fashion. 2. Gero being able to create Androids that strong. It made sense in the RRA arc when Goku was just one of a handful of strong guys, not when he's the in story strongest character in existence, who just killed a character who dwarfs anybody else on Earth by many many magnitudes. The scales not there. 3. The conevniances that pile up to enable it and the disjointed follow through (multiple Androids and Cell coming out of nowhere), and a real lack of solid motivation.

And yeah I felt like Super Saiyan got almost instantly cheapened by every Saiyan being able to do it by the end of the arc.

I don't hate the entire arc either. I love some of the characters. Trunks is great. Cell has a cool personality for a villain (I just don't like his motivations at all). Android 17 was awesome. I like Android 20 and 19's designs and characters. It had some cool moments like the beam struggle at the end, Vegeta fighting Cell's second form, the mystery in Ginger town (which was the first real horror eerie thing the series ever did).

But, I still found it to be the most disjointed and convoluted arc of the series, with the worst writing of the series.

[kei17]

I'm not ignoring it, I just see nothing in your response to debate about.

Then you should at least say that you get it or not. I am wondering whether I have resolved your question.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

Honestly, if I want to see something story driven I'll watch shows like The Wire or Breaking Bad, and not something from Shounen. You're arguing against DBZ for all the wrong reasons. So what if it DBZ isn't a complex or story driven anime series? It was NEVER meant to be one anyway, DB was created for the same purpose as Z, for pure simple and fun entertainment, and no other manga/anime series does it better than Dragon Ball imo, and I'll gladly take that over many of the Shounens that try to be complex.

[Valerius Dover]

A lot of people forget this series IS intended for kids, and it isn't aimed at an adult audience, though we can still certainly enjoy it. People use "blood" as backing for their argument that it's a complex adult show. It's not. It's just that standards are different over there (or, if Kai is any indication, WERE) ).

[Black_Anime_Fan]

I'd also like to apologize for my earlier post VegettoEX and TheGmGoken, it was just something I decided to write out of pure anger alone, and if it makes you feel any better TheGmGoken (and specifically thatdbzguy), I too am a Naruto fan so please don't think I was bashing the series there lol.

[qjz123]

Again, thatdbzguy, why do you keep ignoring my answer to your question? Did you really create this topic to get an asnwer to your question or was disrupting the community by
repeating yourself the main purpose?

I'm not ignoring it, I just see nothing in your response to debate about.

Other posters, not so much.

So basically you're waiting for posts that you can easily reply too by recycling your agenda driven opinions? Kei gave you some insight into how being a manga artist in Jump works. He told you what you wanted to know and you say you saw nothing to debate about? Are you saying when you started this thread you weren't looking for an answer?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

DBZ's was childish, unrelatable, had no artistic substance, and spoonfed things to the viewers.

So is Pokemon and Yugioh, yet they've all managed to move people who believe it has conveyed these subjective values sincerly to them even after their youth. I don't see how any of these qualities makes it a terrible story.

It's probably because the show is simply fun. It doesn't try to be deep, attempt to have some intricate character development, or have villains with ludicrous morals and beliefs they like to preach because Toriyama probably knew he wouldn't be able to handle a story like that well. Instead, he told a story he'd feel more comfortable with and succeeded.

Unfortunately, the same can't be said for a lot of manga authors these days. Too many seem to try and go beyond their capabilities even though they're hardly experienced writers, and try to add depth that they just can't muster. I see many certain series these days(some that are overrated as hell) that tried to be more than a simple action series and failed hard. Their authors just can't write characters very well, and they ultimately turned into cringe-worthy, dragged out, pretentious melodramas.

I have to disagree there. There is no fluidity in the transition from the 23rd Budokai to the Saiyajin arc. If Toriyama didn't drew Roshi at the end saying "It isn't over yet!", the Saiyajin arc would have come from nowhere.

I would argue that all the Z arcs are like that. They are never hinted at from previous arcs, just shoehorned in with the new one overlapping the old. They all do this. The main villain of the last arc is tossed over by a new one who happens to be stronger only after the last one is beaten. DBZ is essentially all a giant monster of the month type story.

[ParkerAL]

Look like Toriyama isn't quite as inventive as you guys thought.

Nothing is original anymore. Every fictional work borrows from something else that came before it.

I don't mean to dismiss your opinions, thatdbzguy, but you seem to live in your own separate world when it comes to Dragon Ball. The Z portion of the story clearly has more fans than the first part, even in Japan. Why else would Toei only give Dragon Ball Z the Kai treatment? I prefer the original half of the series as well, but that doesn't mean I think my claim is backed by an overwhelming majority. Without Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball as a whole wouldn't be much more popular than Dr. Slump is today: a fondly remembered but no longer relevant classic in Japan and an unfortunate nonentity in the United States.

Why don't you talk about why you think the pre-Z part of Dragon Ball is superior instead of focusing on something you dislike so much?

[Tsufuru]

beginning of Z till frieza saga is quality lol.

[FortuneSSJ]

What a sheep. You're a coward.
Everything the haters say is the truth. Everything the fans say doesn't matter.

You enjoyed Dragon Ball but started hating it when you saw many people doing it. So you could be feel better with yourself, just by bashing everything you once liked and join the hate train. Most people that bash the series don't even know what they are talking about and just say random things they read on internet (just like you).

Good luck living this life.
- From the biggest Dragon Ball fan, Fortunessj.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

The problem here has never been that there are people who do not like Dragon Ball Z, it's that Dragon Ball Z is such an uncomplicated story that it's "take it or leave it" in the extreme. Those who enjoy it enough to routinely visit Kanzenshuu either vastly prefer the pre-Z portion, or have decided that the usual points of the contention do not squash their enjoyment of the positive aspects; hounding them for having no taste is redundant, they've made their decision, even if it seems to be to their own doom. Ask fans of any popular children's or toyetic series; they know what they are and can skewer both the story and meta of their series the same way we do here.

For discussion's sake, I'll give a real example; I just visited a friend in another state who is a more routine anime watcher than I am, and his opinion of Z in a sentence is "DBZ is bad, but... I still enjoyed it, and as one who generally cannot stomach the look of "older" anime, it is easily one of the best-looking older productions I've ever seen. (Referring to the animation and Toriyama's art)" On the last day I put on Battle of Gods and he laughed right on cue and never really questioned where the movie went- because its Dragon Ball, its never taking itself quite seriously is one of its strong points. Is he a hater? Or did he just decide Dragon Ball is enjoyable but ultimately silly and has not had much do with it since the Toonami run?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Okay, I'd like to point out, that people watch and enjoy DBZ because it's fun. We know it isn't "mature" or "dark" and that's what we probably love about Z, it's fun, we wanna watch over-powered guys fight each other and that's what we get. (Well I do anyway).

Regarding the over used plot points, if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.

[rereboy]

For discussion's sake, I'll give a real example; I just visited a friend in another state who is a more routine anime watcher than I am, and his opinion of Z in a sentence is "DBZ is bad, but... I still enjoyed it

Why bad? Because its not very complex and doesn't want to be? Because its not and doesn't want to be VERY mature or emo? Those are not synonyms of being good. They are usually a good thing when a show is actually trying to be complex and mature and it pulls it off, otherwise they don't really mean much. Dragon Ball is very good as doing what it intends to do and that's what makes it very good, period.

Obviously, for example, Dragon Ball is not a very good drama unlike the Sopranos because, guess what, it doesn't even try to do the same thing. All that matters is what it tries and intends to do and be.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

Obviously, for example, Dragon Ball is not a very good drama unlike the Sopranos because, guess what, it doesn't even try to do the same thing. All that matters is what it tries and intends to do and be.

This. That's exactly how I feel, and it's something that guys like thatdbzguy need to understand.

[trick007z]

Obviously, for example, Dragon Ball is not a very good drama unlike the Sopranos because, guess what, it doesn't even try to do the same thing. All that matters is what it tries and intends to do and be.

This. That's exactly how I feel, and it's something that guys like thatdbzguy need to understand.

Well Goku and Chichi certainly weren't the Tony and Carmella of manga

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

For discussion's sake, I'll give a real example; I just visited a friend in another state who is a more routine anime watcher than I am, and his opinion of Z in a sentence is "DBZ is bad, but... I still enjoyed it

Why bad? Because its not very complex and doesn't want to be? Because its not and doesn't want to be VERY mature or emo? Those are not synonyms of being good.

I liked that you used emo. I get that this is a thatdbzguy topic but such broad strokes.

The funny thing is, I never asked him to clarify, assuming it was the usual, the formulaic stories and tropes, rapid and convenient power creep, character-shuffling in later arcs, etc. I cannot type out his viewpoint for anyone to pick apart, and his position is not one that should feel compelled too, he is hardly hostile to Dragon Ball, it merely did not hold his interest long-term; to the point where I'm reasonably certain he did not know Battle of Gods existed, at least to the point where he did not mention it when Dragon Ball came up in discussion. He has no interest in the big three as they now stand, they actually remind him that DBZ did not take itself too seriously, Bleach starting interesting but derailing and catching up on One Piece at one point the past being a huge timesink he regrets.

[Valerius Dover]

But, I can go ahead and agree that while I love the original series and hate how overlooked it is, I accept that without Z, it would not have reached the point of popularity that it is today.