Why did Toriyama bother writing Dragon Ball Z?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

But, I can go ahead and agree that while I love the original series and hate how overlooked it is, I accept that without Z, it would not have reached the point of popularity that it is today.

I can tell how badly DB is overlooked based on a lot of the reasons why people claim to hate GT at face value. They hate Goku being a child but yet claim to love DB. Tsk-tsk. I don't buy it.

[TheGmGoken]

But, I can go ahead and agree that while I love the original series and hate how overlooked it is, I accept that without Z, it would not have reached the point of popularity that it is today.

I can tell how badly DB is overlooked based on a lot of the reasons why people claim to hate GT at face value. They hate Goku being a child but yet claim to love DB. Tsk-tsk. I don't buy it.

Eh? I hate GT. I love Dragonball Anime. What you mean you don't buy it? Kid Goku from DB is very different than GT Goku. Don't see why you can't buy it. I would understand if the person who hate GT uses other people as their source or common excuses that can be debunked if you watched the series.

[rereboy]

I liked that you used emo. I get that this is a thatdbzguy topic but such broad strokes.

The funny thing is, I never asked him to clarify, assuming it was the usual, the formulaic stories and tropes, rapid and convenient power creep, character-shuffling in later arcs, etc. I cannot type out his viewpoint for anyone to pick apart, and his position is not one that should feel compelled too, he is hardly hostile to Dragon Ball, it merely did not hold his interest long-term; to the point where I'm reasonably certain he did not know Battle of Gods existed, at least to the point where he did not mention it when Dragon Ball came up in discussion. He has no interest in the big three as they now stand, they actually remind him that DBZ did not take itself too seriously, Bleach starting interesting but derailing and catching up on One Piece at one point the past being a huge timesink he regrets.

The term emo is a perfectly relevant term since there are other mangas out there that people immediately assume are better than Dragon Ball because they are more emo/angst/whatever, like Naruto and Bleach.

[Tsufuru]

DB was quality pure.
From arc to arc.

Dbz could easiely compete with Db but only till the end of frieza saga.
The moment where all thought goku died....right there the manga should have ended with goku realy dieing.
Cell saga and buu saga were not bad.
There are a lot worse todaycurrent naruto

[ABED]

While I agree that the 23rd Budokai would be a great place to end, we would still miss out on a lot of good stuff. I feel the same way about my favorite show Supernatural. Yes, season 5 would've been a great way to end the series, but there's been so much great stuff since then.

[Tsufuru]

Frieza was by far the best villian in dbz and 1 of the best in the manga world.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

While I agree that the 23rd Budokai would be a great place to end, we would still miss out on a lot of good stuff. I feel the same way about my favorite show Supernatural. Yes, season 5 would've been a great way to end the series, but there's been so much great stuff since then.

I agree. Season 8 especially was awesome, and so was souless Sam! Haven't seen S9 yet, waiting on the BD release.
Anyway, back on topic I think the Freeza arc was probably the best way to end it (if it had to be ended earlier then it was).

Dbz could easiely compete with Db but only till the end of Freeza saga.
The moment where all thought goku died....right there the manga should have ended with goku realy dieing.

Well Yeah, a sort of Inception ending would have been awesome, not knowing whether or not Goku has truly died.

[ABED]

I hate Inceptions ending. I don't like ambiguous endings, it feels like a big middle finger to the audience. Either it was all a waste of time if Leo is still dreaming, or Nolan is playing coy. Of all the things to make ambiguous, why do people think it's a sign of intelligent writing to leave an ending to the audience. I don't want to create my own ending, if I am watching or reading a story, I want to see the writer's story.

I like them even less than down endings. Having Goku die because of what Freeza did to Planet Namek is a terrible ending that's not at all in keeping with DB's lighthearted tone.

[Ajay]

So you enjoy being spoonfed?

What's wrong with ambiguity? It can be incredibly poignant and used to emphasise points about a film. It doesn't matter whether he was dreaming or not; the point of his character was to confront his demons and his inability to get over his wife. The essential plotlines were tied up fine but Cobb's own character progression doesn't need to be closed and tied up with a neat little bow. It's for you to ponder on yourself. What's the better outcome for him? What's more likely for his character? What would you as a viewer want in that situation?

It's evocative. I don't want to know for sure. If I was told, I would have walked away from that and not given the film a second thought.

Of course, I do agree with you; a dark ending or an ambiguous ending would not suit Dragon Ball whatsoever. Firstly, it's not that type of show and secondly, it's furthest thing from Toriyama's type of work.

[ABED]

So you enjoy being spoonfed?

What's wrong with ambiguity? It can be incredibly poignant and used to emphasise points about a film. It doesn't matter whether he was dreaming or not; the point of his character was to confront his demons and his inability to get over his wife. The essential plotlines were tied up fine but Cobb's own character progression doesn't need to be closed and tied up with a neat little bow. It's for you to ponder on yourself. What's the better outcome for him? What's more likely for his character? What would you as a viewer want in that situation?

It's evocative. I don't want to know for sure. If I was told, I would have walked away from that and not given the film a second thought.

So you enjoy writers copping out instead of writing an ending?

Definitive endings can be just as poignant.

I'm tired of this logic that endings are nice neat little bows, so what? Yes, I want a nice neat little bow, as if giving a definitive answer means I won't think. Stories aren't there for "thinking" it's purpose are to evoke an emotional response. Anything can make you think, it's an hollow compliment to say "it made me think".

Endings are the most important part of the story because it's what it is all heading towards, so if you can't come up with one or just leave it to the audience, then you aren't doing your job as a storyteller.

As for Cobb, his progression IS the story, so yes it does need to be tied up. I can just as easily decide what I would rather see if Nolan had answered the question. I find that "I wouldn't have thought of the movie if they gave us an answer" to be complete BS. Plenty of classic films have endings, and you still think about them and enjoy them after seeing them the first time. I don't know where this ridiculous idea came from that definitive endings preclude people from thinking.

[Ajay]

In what way is it a cop out? What on earth are you talking about?! What utter tripe. Oh no, you had to spend 10 minutes thinking for yourself! The horror!

Of course a closed ending is just as effective; it depends entirely on the film. There's no definitive answer to that question and it's asinine to think otherwise. I never implied an ambiguous ending was in any way superior.

Yes, "it made me think" is a hollow a compliment if you take it on its own but that's not at all what I was saying. Why it opened up questions, how it tied into the film, and what are your conclusions are all essential parts of that comment. A film that spends 90 minutes thoroughly establishing themes, philosophies and characters is totally within its rights to offer up an ambiguous ending if it ties into said themes.

You got your bow-tied ending in Inception. The main plotline was closed - the job was totally done. Leaving Cobb's story somewhat open is not a negative whatsoever. It forces you, as the viewer, to ponder on the morality of the situation, to toss up the odds and to make your own decision. What would be the ideal solution, what are the trade-offs? That's a theme for the entire damn film!

Cobb spins the top and walks away towards his kids. He doesn't care if it's a dream or not, he wants to be with his kids no matter what. That's your ending for him. It. does. not. matter.

Did you really need a conclusive answer to the spinning top to understand that? Of course not.

Be tired of 'that logic'. That logic is perfectly sound and has produced some of the most poignant and emotionally compelling media of all time.

[rereboy]

Stories are whatever the author wants them to be. Open endings aren't inherently bad, it all depends, mostly on execution.

[Ajay]

Exactly. There's plenty of open endings that are absolutely garbage. They're created by writers who misunderstand the point of ambiguity and how it can't be ambiguous for ambiguity's sake. There needs to be a solid reason for it and it has to at least link to everything that's come before it.

[ABED]

If you take that view to nearly any other discipline, you could see that it's ridiculous to leave it unfinished. Would you leave a building or a non-fiction book unfinished?

Yes, leaving DB ambiguous is a bad idea, and it was done fairly well in Inception, but that still doesn't make it an ending. Why leave out the thing the story is building towards?

Stories are whatever the author wants them to be.

But stories have things that make them stories as opposed to something else. They need plots, and they need an ending.

[xmysticgohanx]

I came here to say that I've never liked open endings. Instead of trying to figure out the most probable ending, I want to know the actual ending.

[rereboy]

Stories are whatever the author wants them to be.

But stories have things that make them stories as opposed to something else. They need plots, and they need an ending.

That's the same thing as saying that a painting has to follow certain rules. Movies and tv shows are a form of art, you know? These "rules" are just conventions.

I came here to say that I've never liked open endings. Instead of trying to figure out the most probable ending, I want to know the actual ending.

And you are entitled to whatever opinion you have on them. However, grouping ALL open endings, like they are all the same, is not a good philosophy.

[ABED]

Stories are whatever the author wants them to be.

But stories have things that make them stories as opposed to something else. They need plots, and they need an ending.

That's the same thing as saying that a painting has to follow certain rules. Movies and tv shows are a form of art, you know? These "rules" are just conventions.

Smears on a canvas aren't art, nor is "Bob went down the street to buy a gallon of milk. He was successful, and returned home without incident" a story. For something to be a concept, it has to have attributes that separate it from everything else. Random noises aren't music, just like lines painted in a parking lot aren't art.

However, grouping ALL open endings, like they are all the same, is not a good philosophy.

No one's saying they're all the same. Some are better than others, but that doesn't make them proper.

Bringing this around to Freeza, leaving it hanging like that is just wrong. Not only is it an ambiguous ending, it's a down ending as well, which doesn't fit DB.

[rereboy]

Smears on a canvas aren't art.

According to you. I've seen quite a few modern art paintings that seem to disagree. Actually, you seem to be forgetting that movies and tv shows, being an art form, are intrinsically subjective. A movie doesn't become objectively bad or objectively not art just because you think so.

[Flame Dragon]

This is so stupid... of course if you write "DBZ sucks" on Google you'll find people that bash it.
Maybe you should just think that a piece of fiction DEVOID OF ANY CRITICISM SIMPLY DOESN'T EXIST.

[Ajay]

Art is whatever you want it to be. Sometimes it's the finished product that stands by itself; while other times it's very much about the context of the piece - the process and thoughts of the artist, for example.

Abstract expressionism is incredibly visceral rather than analytical. To you, they may just be blobs on a canvas, while others might find real value to them. It's not for you to objectively decide.

To appreciate the work of artists such as Franz Kline or Rothko from an analytical point of view; it's important to understand the context in which they were painted. Why these colours, these brushstrokes, this size? These are all incredibly important questions that relate back to the artist himself. A lot of Rothko's work was done during heavy depression and so the pieces were huge, darkly coloured and aggressively painted.

There's always this argument of 'well, anyone can do that' but that's not what abstract art is about. It's about the ideas behind the work and the performance in the execution. The innate emotional reaction when confronted with such a piece.

'Well anyone can do that'
'Yes, but you didn't and that's what makes this unique'.