Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

There's that, but also the fact that assuming a "surprised by power" reaction automatically means the character has been surpassed is jumping to conclusions anyway. Vegeta had a very similar reaction to Goku's infamous "over 8000" power-up back in the Saiyan arc, but we know Vegeta was still much stronger than Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Personally, I think that that the kids are stronger than Piccolo, and a little stronger than Kaioshin.

Vegeta had a very similar reaction to Goku's infamous "over 8000" power-up back in the Saiyan arc, but we know Vegeta was still much stronger than Goku.

Yeah, Piccolo's reaction means nothing. He was just surprised because the kids were apparently much stronger than he expected them to be, and it's not like he was going to fight with them.

When Gotenks splits up, Buu takes on Piccolo's appearance.

The kids are in base inside Boo, so of course Piccolo would be the strongest of them.

[RandomGuy96]

When Gotenks splits up, Buu takes on Piccolo's appearance.

False. He only takes on Piccolo's appearance after the boys are removed.

The argument that Buu is influenced more by Piccolo, therefore he's stronger than the kids, has never held any weight, for many reasons:

1. It's never stated that the strongest absorption will influence Buu the most. In fact, we have at least one example of the exact opposite happening.
2. Even if that were the case, the kids are shown to be base in their base forms inside of Buu (I think Buu gets their power regardless, but there you go).
3. Even after Gotenks defuses, the boys are still more "dominant" in Buu than Piccolo is. They actually change his body, while all Piccolo does is add one piece of clothing.
4. We see a later version of Buu where Piccolo actually is the dominant one, and it looks nothing like the version of Buu that has Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo absorbed at the same time. He has a different face, Piccolo's shirt, and fewer fingers. The first "Buuccolo" had five fingers, no shirt, and the same face as Buutenks. This would point to the kids' influence overriding Piccolo's.

The kids have actual feats, as well as official statements, putting them well into their fathers' tier of power. Piccolo has nothing.

[Saiga]

I've really never seen a reason for arguing Piccolo as stronger other than wanting him to be. It's easy to come up with reasons for him to be stronger if that's what you're already thinking, but none of them seem natural at all - bar the Boo thing, and only when ignoring Boo's other forms.

[Hugo Boss]

What are your opinion guys on Kaioshin and the Boys (Super Saiyan of course)? Who is stronger?

If the boys are between No.18 and Piccolo, Kaioshin is stronger.

[Son Edo]

They're both better than Freeza, that's the important thing.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

A few questions:

What's is DnSSJ's multiplier? As Buroli in his SSJ form was on par with Gohan in his base, it must be well over 100x SSJ (5000x base) for that to work. I'd say it's 200x SSJ, or 10000x base.

And why is Buroli so weak in the first place? Is it a result of the Toei syndrome? Or does Buroli deliberately hold back in his weaker forms when he fights a battle that he wants to turn LSSJ in?

In your opinion, at what point in the story can the heroes actually take on 100% Freeza in their base forms? (with the exception of Ultimate Gohan of course). Some say post ROSAT Cell saga, others say they can't even after they beat Buu.

I'm going to make my own bp list for post Freeza in due time. What should I do to prepare for that? Reread the manga?

[KentalSSJ6]

A few questions:

What's is DnSSJ's multiplier? As Buroli in his SSJ form was on par with Gohan in his base, it must be well over 100x SSJ (5000x base) for that to work. I'd say it's 200x SSJ, or 10000x base.

And why is Buroli so weak in the first place? Is it a result of the Toei syndrome? Or does Buroli deliberately hold back in his weaker forms when he fights a battle that he wants to turn LSSJ in?

In your opinion, at what point in the story can the heroes actually take on 100% Freeza in their base forms? (with the exception of Ultimate Gohan of course). Some say post ROSAT Cell saga, others say they can't even after they beat Buu.

I'm going to make my own bp list for post Freeza in due time. What should I do to prepare for that? Reread the manga?

Broly's LSSJ multiplier cant be anything over X100 in my opinion. I think a large consensus is that hes basically a mutant SSJ2

[Kaboom]

What's is DnSSJ's multiplier? As Buroli in his SSJ form was on par with Gohan in his base, it must be well over 100x SSJ (5000x base) for that to work. I'd say it's 200x SSJ, or 10000x base.

And why is Buroli so weak in the first place? Is it a result of the Toei syndrome? Or does Buroli deliberately hold back in his weaker forms when he fights a battle that he wants to turn LSSJ in?

I don't think it's necessary or wise to take that little scuffle as a serious indication of Gohan and Broli's strengths. Toei loves using those little "warm up rounds" in the movies all the time. Base Gohan versus SSJ Broli there is really no different from base Goku vs Coola, or the base Saiyans vs the 3 Androids, or even base Goku fighting SSJ Broli the first time around in Movie 8. Heck, in Movie 12, Goku paid Fat Janemba an "ain't never felt a ki that amazing" compliment... then proceeded to fight him in his base form.

That said, Broli's "Legendary Super Saiyan" form doesn't have any official multiplier, so it's ultimately up to you and how you want to treat the form. I use a 100xBase/2xSSJ boost, like Super Saiyan 2, since like Kental mentioned I'm one among a good handful who consider LSSJ to be pretty much Broli's own mutated version of SSJ2, or some cross between it and SSJ Grade 3.

In your opinion, at what point in the story can the heroes actually take on 100% Freeza in their base forms? (with the exception of Ultimate Gohan of course). Some say post ROSAT Cell saga, others say they can't even after they beat Buu.

In Battle of Gods it was said that Goku can't beat Freeza without Super Saiyan, but by that point I'd like to think he and Vegeta are getting pretty close. They'd both be pushing a power level of 100 million by then, compared to Freeza's full power of 120 million. That's already close enough to plausibly beat Freeza with the right strategy or circumstances (like staying on the defensive until Freeza gets burned out and weakened by his own 100% state, for example). But I'd bet a dollar that by the time of the manga's epilogue (absorbed god-power shenanigans aside), base Goku would have inched his way a bit past Freeza's full power.

I'm going to make my own bp list for post Freeza in due time. What should I do to prepare for that? Reread the manga?

That's always a good idea. You could always also review this site's Battle Power guide for inspiration too. Or study some other fans' lists and read any notes or comments they have to offer for some insight on why they use whatever numbers they do.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think a large consensus is that hes basically a mutant SSJ2

Well, there is [Legendary] Super Saiyan 2, 3, and 4 officially, so that's not the case.

[Kamiccolo9]

I think a large consensus is that hes basically a mutant SSJ2

Well, there is [Legendary] Super Saiyan 2, 3, and 4 officially, so that's not the case.

If people can discount anime-only things for manga power discussions, I'm pretty sure they can discount video game-only things for movie discussions. I'd place the anime and movies higher up in the "canon" than the games.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If people can discount anime-only things for manga power discussions, I'm pretty sure they can discount video game-only things for movie discussions. I'd place the anime and movies higher up in the "canon" than the games.

It's not exactly the same though. The anime & manga are 2 separate worlds & stories, while the video games show different possibilities within the world that the anime takes place. For example, SS4 Goku can't happen withing the manga world (from what we know), while SS3 Broli could have happened in the anime world, but it just never happened.

[Kamiccolo9]

If people can discount anime-only things for manga power discussions, I'm pretty sure they can discount video game-only things for movie discussions. I'd place the anime and movies higher up in the "canon" than the games.

It's not exactly the same though. The anime & manga are 2 separate worlds & stories, while the video games show different possibilities within the world that the anime takes place. For example, SS4 Goku can't happen withing the manga world (from what we know), while SS3 Broli could have happened in the anime world, but it just never happened.

I'm really not seeing a difference here.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

I don't think it's necessary or wise to take that little scuffle as a serious indication of Gohan and Broli's strengths. Toei loves using those little "warm up rounds" in the movies all the time. Base Gohan versus SSJ Broli there is really no different from base Goku vs Coola, or the base Saiyans vs the 3 Androids, or even base Goku fighting SSJ Broli the first time around in Movie 8. Heck, in Movie 12, Goku paid Fat Janemba a "ain't never felt a ki that amazing" compliment... then proceeded to fight him in his base form.

That's pretty much what I think as well. Darn it Toei syndrome.

That's always a good idea. You could always also review this site's Battle Power guide for inspiration too. Or study some other fans' lists and read any notes or comments they have to offer for some insight on why they use whatever numbers they do.

I've read the guide several times already, and I'm taking my time to read the 220 pages of this thread. Though to be honest, there are some lists I skip automatically over due to personal disagreements with the maker. Things include, but not limited to, disagreeing with the multipliers from the SEG (specifically SSJ = 50 x base), disagreeing with official BPs within the Saiyajin and Freeza saga, etc.

Fun fact about me: I have so far, discovered two things that literally make my head hurt, one is reading the Tao Te Ching, the other is figuring out DB's BPs post-Freeza.

[Kaboom]

I've read the guide several times already, and I'm taking my time to read the 220 pages of this thread. Though to be honest, there are some lists I skip automatically over due to personal disagreements with the maker. Things include, but not limited to, disagreeing with the multipliers from the SEG (specifically SSJ = 50 x base), disagreeing with official BPs within the Saiyajin and Freeza saga, etc.

Yeah, my up-to-date lists are just linked in my signature nowadays, so you can skip pretty much anything else I've posted in this thread. Well, there's my totally serious and in-depth GT list I'm quite proud of, but other than that...

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

About the Potara fusion, according to the guide on this site, and I quote:

On p.63 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power. A graphical depiction of this infers that Vegetto’s battle power is equivalent to Goku’s battle power multiplied by Vegeta’s. Also according to the introduction of the Super Exciting Guide′s training section, all the information in it is based on data that was supervised by Toriyama, though we have no idea how extensive this supervision was.

Does anyone have the scan to the whole page (I can read Japanese). If not, can someone confirm if Potara = X * Y is true for any and all Potara fusions, or just Goku * Vegeta? (Meaning, Potara fusions of others still result in a multiplication, albeit a less complete one).

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's been brought up dozens of times already. The page doesn't mention anything about the other Potara fusions beyond what that blurb mentions, just that Potara fusion is closer to multiplication rather than simple addition and that Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto.

Neither of those things really have to mean what some people interpret them to mean though. Vegetti may not be Goku multiplied by Vegeta, as "X" is commonly used to represent the word "cross". The whole "formula" that some fans take so literally may mean nothing more than "Vegetto is Goku combined with Vegeta", which we obviously already knew. The line about how Potara fusion is closer to multiplication rather than simple addition also doesn't have to mean anything beyond the idea that the resulting fusion is greater than the sum of it's parts, which we're told in the series proper.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

It's been brought up dozens of times already. The page doesn't mention anything about the other Potara fusions beyond what that blurb mentions, just that Potara fusion is closer to multiplication rather than simple addition and that Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto.

Neither of those things really have to mean what some people interpret them to mean though. Vegetti may not be Goku multiplied by Vegeta, as "X" is commonly used to represent the word "cross". The whole "formula" that some fans take so literally may mean nothing more than "Vegetto is Goku combined with Vegeta", which we obviously already knew. The line about how Potara fusion is closer to multiplication rather than simple addition also doesn't have to mean anything beyond the idea that the resulting fusion is greater than the sum of it's parts, which we're told in the series proper.

I think you're over-analyzing it. Vegetto is clearly Goku X Vegeta. Yes, X can mean cross, but it can also mean multiply (in both Eastern and Western context). With the statement how the Potara is closer to multiplication, along with the graphical example, we can reasonably take for granted that Vegetto is Goku x Vegeta.

Your latter statement is a valid assumption, but it's only relevant to non-Vegetto Potara fusions, in my opinion.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

No, I don't think it's clearly anything. I feel that if they wanted to state that Vegetto is Goku multiplied by Vegeta, after having just outright given us multipliers for SS2 and SS3, then they would have just said that bluntly in the text around the "formula". I see no reason for them to lead up to "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" with Potara is more like multiplication than addition, if it's just normal multiplication.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

No, I don't think it's clearly anything. I feel that if they wanted to state that Vegetto is Goku multiplied by Vegeta, after having just outright given us multipliers for SS2 and SS3, then they would have just said that bluntly in the text around the "formula". I see no reason for them to lead up to "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" with Potara is more like multiplication than addition, if it's just normal multiplication.

Again, I still think you're over-analyzing this, just because they didn't say that bluntly around the formula in text form, doesn't mean the negative is automatically true. It could very well mean since they stated it already, there's no need to state it again, or you know, page space limit.

"Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" is stated right afterwards, I really don't see a reason to ignore it or even twist it into something else.

And if one really wants to get technical, normal multiplication is "more like multiplication than addition".

I know this speculation won't end, so I'll just agree to disagree.