Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

TheDevilsCorpse didn't say anything wrong, nor has anyone else saying the same thing. It's perfectly reasonable to assume the bit about Vegetto isn't meant to literally mean a multiplication of battle power.

Then give me something better, because an official source stating the exact thing that The DevilsCorpse is rejecting without providing any backup whatsoever other than "don't take it too literally" isn't going to bring me over.

Such a thing isn't really possible anyway, because "Battle Power" itself isn't numbers. The numbers we traditionally think about are just the measurement assigned to it by scouters, the most prominent method of measuring battle power. But AxB in battle power is not going to be the same thing as AxB in Kiri.

"Battle Power" isn't numbers, no, but it's expressed as such in-universe.

Kiri was never mentioned in this case.

[Kaboom]

Then give me something better, because an official source stating the exact thing that TheDevilsCorpse is rejecting without providing any backup whatsoever other than "don't take it too literally" isn't going to bring me over.

That's the crux of the problem, I think. The extra-literal interpretation of the guidebook tidbit you've adopted is not the only viable interpretation, nor the most favorable one.

"Battle Power" isn't numbers, no, but it's expressed as such in-universe.
Kiri was never mentioned in this case.

Exactly, it's just one particular "expression" of battle power. As opposed to kiri, which is another way to express it, and natural ki sensing, which just allows the user to "feel" or somehow envision the ki of others in relative "size" to their own. But it's impossible and nonsensical to assert that a mystical Fusion method performed with godly tools that have existed for eons is dependent on the arbitrary numeric scale used by devices invented by mortals.

Try not to think of the amount of someone's ki in terms of any numerical measurement at all. Instead, envision it as just one solid, amorphous "blob" of ki. Addition is easy enough; If you put two equally-sized blobs together, you'll end up with a blob twice as big. But multiplication is trickier. You could multiply one blob by a certain number and end up with multiple blobs, or a single blob a certain number of times bigger. But there's no way to multiply two blobs together. "Blob x 2" makes sense. "Blob x Blob" does not and can not.

Which is why the Super Exciting Guide entry, as it was faithfully translated, is somewhat vague. "As tremendous as multiplication" does not necessarily strictly mean, "A's Battle Power in scouter units multiplied by B's Battle Power in scouter units."

[Kamiccolo9]

Which is why the Super Exciting Guide entry, as it was faithfully translated, is somewhat vague. "As tremendous as multiplication" does not necessarily strictly mean, "A's Battle Power in scouter units multiplied by B's Battle Power in scouter units."

More to the point, "as" indicates a comparison. Godzilla is as big as a building. That does not mean that Godzilla is a building.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

That's the crux of the problem, I think. The extra-literal interpretation of the guidebook tidbit you've adopted is not the only viable interpretation, nor the most favorable one.

Me? I've interpreted it the way it's written, not to mention I wasn't leaning off my source from a translation. If I'm being literal, you guys are way off the correlation.

Exactly, it's just one particular "expression" of battle power. As opposed to kiri, which is another way to express it, and natural ki sensing, which just allows the user to "feel" or somehow envision the ki of others in relative "size" to their own. But it's impossible and nonsensical to assert that a mystical Fusion method performed with godly tools that have existed for eons is dependent on the arbitrary numeric scale used by devices invented by mortals.

The text used the term "戦闘力". It's that simple.

Try not to think of the amount of someone's ki in terms of any numerical measurement at all. Instead, envision it as just one solid, amorphous "blob" of ki. Addition is easy enough; If you put two equally-sized blobs together, you'll end up with a blob twice as big. But multiplication is trickier. You could multiply one blob by a certain number and end up with multiple blobs, or a single blob a certain number of times bigger. But there's no way to multiply two blobs together. "Blob x 2" makes sense. "Blob x Blob" does not and can not.

The understanding of "qi" is quite abstract, but it's really the fundamental of "natural lifeforce" or more literally translated, "energy", and all changes to anything in the universe is a direct result of it. There's no numerical measurement of it because it can't be measured, it's formless and shapeless.

The problem is: If we try and bring our real-life understanding of "qi", it would render the numerical concept of "battle powers", official or otherwise, a laughable joke, which I know was the intention of Toriyama as stated in an interview. Saying I have "over 9000! chi" is kind of like saying I have "45 internet access points", or "30 paths to get from point a to point b". There's really no difference if you change the number.

In essence, "Blob x 2", "Blob x Blob", or "Blob x *blank*" is no different from just Blob.

Kaboom, your analysis is good, but given the context of Vegetto in this guide, I have to say it's an over-analysis.

Which is why the Super Exciting Guide entry, as it was faithfully translated, is somewhat vague. "As tremendous as multiplication" does not necessarily strictly mean, "A's Battle Power in scouter units multiplied by B's Battle Power in scouter units."

「掛け算」になるほどの凄まじさ！

That's a pretty direct statement at "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" to me.

I don't really see where people are getting so adamant at rejecting this. There's a big difference between disagreeing with it and "taking words out of its mouth and putting different ones in. I guess people don't want Vegetto to be magnitudes more powerful for w/e reason, or there's a language barrier (there always will be regardless of the quality of the translation). And the translation provided by this site trades in literal accuracy for grammar, which is commonplace for most translations. I doubt any of the original translators here would see or care that we would actually argue over this trivial matter.

[jjgp1112]

The way I see it, you can't look at the fusions in an oversimplified "power level x power level" equation. Especially not the Potara fusion. Let's not forget, Kibito Kai, while stronger than Supreme Kai, still wasn't anything compared to Buu and the others. On top of that, Goku was extremely opposed to fusing with Dende and Mr. Satan. If it was strictly multiplying powerlevels, fusing with them would produce tremendous gains.

Rather fusion is exactly what it is - a merging of two beings, their entire body composition and "ki." Power level numbers are simply part of the equation. Certain elements mix with each other in specific ways, and the compatibility affects every aspect of the final mixture. Think of it as a chemical equation - you mix a good chemical with a bad chemical, it will create something that may be better than the bad chemical, but still be a lot worse than the good chemical, rendering the whole thing as fruitless.

On the other hand, Vegetto is the product of two of the most powerful warriors in the universe, who also happen to be of similar height and weight, AND are part of the same warrior race, one whose blood is essentially a fighting hax. So of course the final result would have a power level equal to the two of them multiplied together.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

The way I see it, you can't look at the fusions in an oversimplified "power level x power level" equation. Especially not the Potara fusion. Let's not forget, Kibito Kai, while stronger than Supreme Kai, still wasn't anything compared to Buu and the others. On top of that, Goku was extremely opposed to fusing with Dende and Mr. Satan. If it was strictly multiplying powerlevels, fusing with them would produce tremendous gains.

Rather fusion is exactly what it is - a merging of two beings, their entire body composition and "ki." Power level numbers are simply part of the equation. Certain elements mix with each other in specific ways, and the compatibility affects every aspect of the final mixture. Think of it as a chemical equation - you mix a good chemical with a bad chemical, it will create something that's may be better than the bad chemical, but still be a lot worse than the good chemical, rendering the whole thing as fruitless.

On the other hand, Vegetto is the product of two of the most powerful warriors in the universe, who also happen to be of similar height and weight, AND are part of the same warrior race, one whose blood is essentially a fighting hax. So of course the final result would have a power level equal to the two of them multiplied together.

Which is why I think the formula for fusions is different depending on the fusees, and we only know of Vegetto's officially.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't really see where people are getting so adamant at rejecting this.

• It makes zero sense from an in-universe point of view. It only applies to the battle power units, which were invented by the Tsufruians for their scouters, while the Potara earings were invented by the Kaioshin. How the hell are the Tsufruians related with the Kaioshin?
• It makes zero sense mathematically. For example, 10 BP x 2 BP doesn't make 20 BP, it makes 20 BP^2. And there isn't such a thing as BP^2.
• It is ridiculous. It makes base Vegetto ridiculously & needlessly powerful, which makes everyone that is as strong or stronger than Vegetto (SS4 Goku, SSGod Goku, Beerus, Baby, etc) even more ridiculously powerful.
• Nothing suggests that this is a formula. The equitation says absolutely nothing about battle powers. Sure, the same page suggests that the Potara doesn't work like A + B = C, but it has multiplication involved... which is the same for Kaio-ken, Fusion, Oozaru, and the Super Saiyan forms. But this doesn't mean that the equitation is a formula, just like the equitation for Gotenks in that other guide (Goten + Trunks = Gotenks) isn't a formula.

[Rocketman]

[*]It is ridiculous. It makes base Vegetto ridiculously & needlessly powerful, which makes everyone that is as strong or stronger than Vegetto (SS4 Goku, SSGod Goku, Beerus, Baby, etc) even more ridiculously powerful.

Well obviously the problem is that you claim there are people stronger than Vegetto, then.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well obviously the problem is that you claim there are people stronger than Vegetto, then.

It's not me that is claiming this though. It is Goku that said that merging with Vegeta would probably not be enough to beat Beerus, and then he was surprised by how powerful he was as a God, and then we learned that Beerus was even stronger, and Whis even stronger than Beerus, and that there are probably guys stronger than them in the other universes. And as for GT, SS4 Goku is stated to be perhaps weaker than SS Vegetto. And then we have SS4 Vegeta, Oozaru Baby, Super #17, and Si Xing Long on around the same level as him, and Super Yi Xing Long & SS4 Gogeta far stronger than him.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

[*]It makes zero sense from an in-universe point of view. It only applies to the battle power units, which were invented by the Tsufruians for their scouters, while the Potara earings were invented by the Kaioshin. How the hell are the Tsufruians related with the Kaioshin?

Again, the source said "battle powers".

[*]It makes zero sense mathematically. For example, 10 BP x 2 BP doesn't make 20 BP, it makes 20 BP^2. And there isn't such a thing as BP^2.

I've already lightly explained the concept of qi, putting mathematical concept doesn't in the first place, no matter the method. Multiplication doesn't make any more sense than exponents.

[*]It is ridiculous. It makes base Vegetto ridiculously & needlessly powerful, which makes everyone that is as strong or stronger than Vegetto (SS4 Goku, SSGod Goku, Beerus, Baby, etc) even more ridiculously powerful.

Forget GT.

At the time of Vegetto's conception, it was decades before Birusu was conceived. And this guide too was made before that.

If Vegetto actually fought with those characters, then it might be worth reconsidering. But it never happened.

[*]Nothing suggests that this is a formula. The equitation says absolutely nothing about battle powers. Sure, the same page suggests that the Potara doesn't work like A + B = C, but it has multiplication involved... which is the same for Kaio-ken, Fusion, Oozaru, and the Super Saiyan forms. But this doesn't mean that the equitation is a formula, just like the equitation for Gotenks in that other guide (Goten + Trunks = Gotenks) isn't a formula.

You're not paying attention, the magazine itself already refutes this. Plus I never said Vegetto's formula is the formula for all Potara or fusions. The guide never mention Potara beyond the fact that it's required to make Vegetto. It's way more likely that all fusion's battle power formula is different depending on fusees. This is like, the 3rd time I said this.

[Kaboom]

Okay, I think enough is enough at this point. It started with Ultimate_Nova_X asking for advice on "Fusion multipliers," and some of the points being made were interesting at first, but I think we're going in circles now and it's starting to get off-topic (the topic of the thread being "post and get feedback on made-up power level lists"). So time to put on the moderator hat and throw some authoritah around.

"Battle power" in and of itself is not numerical. Numbers are just used to apply measurement to it, through at least two observed different methods (scouters and kiri meter), each with their own different scales. When considering this, from an in-universe perspective, Vegetto's ki being Goku's ki multiplied by Vegeta's ki is impossible. It just doesn't work like that (which is the main reason why I, personally, don't use it).

BUT, from a "fans making fan-stuff" perspective, if you WANT to take the extreme route and interpret the bit from the Super Exciting Guide literally to mean "Vegetto's battle power in scouter units is Goku's battle power in scouter units multiplied by Vegeta's battle power in scouter units," and you're comfortable with the results, then fine. More power to you. But if you don't, and prefer a more relaxed and less literal interpretation that the boost is simply "as tremendous as multiplication" instead, then that's A-OK too.

There's no inherent right or wrong in this. This isn't one of those forums where you're not allowed to be in the cool kids' club if you don't agree with the majority on how to craft make-believe numbers. At the very least, the discussion we've has hopefully resulted in some opinions being shared, ideas being planted, and un-involved members having an interesting read.

Debate over. Let's post some lists or something.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

The debate stems from the majority here not actually knowing Japanese. And I've said before, there is a difference between disagreeing with it (like Kaboom does) and outright stating that the source is not saying something when it is.

Anyway, my list is done, aside from movies and ovas. Just need to review it and think up a witty title and some witty commentary for each saga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

(Last reply)

Again, the source said "battle powers".

It is not in the equitation though, that's my point. The equitation only talks about characters, not numbers.

You can interpret it as if it talks about battle powers, but that would be your personal interpretation (which I accept as valid, even though I disagree with it), not a fact.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

It is not in the equitation though, that's my point. The equitation only talks about characters, not numbers.

By that statement, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that it still said that in the original text. Not to mention, the equation, whether or not it stated battle powers still used the X sign, or rather, × sign, it's multiplication down to the font.

The equation does not state battle powers likely because it was redundant as it was stated in the text already. Since if it did state it, it would have to have stated it thrise, which would look silly really. And Japan has a much lower tolerance of what they see as "redundant" than the West does.

You can interpret it as if it talks about battle powers, but that would be your personal interpretation (which I accept as valid, even though I disagree with it), not a fact.

I see it as a fact myself.

Question, is the Episode of Baadoku canon? And by canon I don't mean if it fits to the timeline or not, but rather does Toriyama say it's canon like he said for BOG and the Golden Week movie next year?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

By that statement, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that it still said that in the original text. Not to mention, the equation, whether or not it stated battle powers still used the X sign, or rather, × sign, it's multiplication down to the font.

The statement only says that the Potara works as a multiplication (like Kaio-ken, Super Saiyan, Fusion, etc), not that it multiplies the BPs of Goku & Vegeta. That's what you assume from the equitation.

Anyway, moving on.

Question, is the Episode of Baadoku canon? And by canon I don't mean if it fits to the timeline or not, but rather does Toriyama say it's canon like he said for BOG and the Golden Week movie next year?

Nope, Toriyama hasn't said anything about EoB.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

not that it multiplies the BPs of Goku & Vegeta.

「掛け算」になるほどの凄まじさ！

From the original source, that's exactly what it says.

So for now, only Kami to Kami and the movie next year, as well as DBO is canon to the manga, right? And maybe the 2008 OVA as well.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

So for now, only Kami to Kami and the movie next year, as well as DBO is canon to the manga, right? And maybe the 2008 OVA as well.

DBO, taken directly as is, doesn't work with Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Make of that what you will.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

So for now, only Kami to Kami and the movie next year, as well as DBO is canon to the manga, right? And maybe the 2008 OVA as well.

DBO, taken directly as is, doesn't work with Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Make of that what you will.

Will read that soon then. I never played DBO and I certainly won't play it ever, so I don't know.

[Rocketman]

The manga stands alone as canon. Everything else is slapped on after the fact (and unsurprisingly, is varying levels of shit).

[ZombieVito]

Just made a new list but with pictures!

Feedback welcome.