This Roshi being immortal buisness

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:21 pm

GI_Judd2287 wrote:I'm pretty sure he has eternal life (as in he lives forever) but he can be killed. In the manga he's upset that the turtle disapproves of him seeing Bulma's breasts and he says "Is it so terrible to grant a dying old man his last wish?" and the Turtle replies "You mean the old man who drank from the immortality elixir?"

Expect that it was pointed out earlier that Roshi lied about ever having taken the immortality elixir. There's nothing to this idea of Roshi being immortal. He's just helluva old.

KinoFourpaws · Post by **KinoFourpaws** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:48 am

MartianOddity wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:The thing I want to know about Roshi being immortal is that if he really is how come Pan is the only survivor of the group at the end of GT?
I'm pretty sure he still was alive by then if he didn't get killed earlier. He just didn't have reason to show up anymore since Pan didn't have much contact with him and he didn't know Goku Jr at all.
The other saiyans died of age (not Goku, appareantly) as did the humans. I believe Piccolo, Dende and Popo still were alive since namekians live for something about 300 years or more.
As far as I know, Kame-Sennin grew away as a part of the group at the beginning of GT. We just don't see him in the adventures anymore, which means he's out of the adventure gang, which I think is what they mean by Pan being the last one left of the old group.

Actually, Piccolo doesn't count. If you recall, he died when Earth exploded to prevent the black-star dragonballs from being used again. And, well, Mr. Popo's not Nameckian, so I don't know about him... o_o

I agree with the people who say Kame Sen'nin can't die just because of old age. I mean, you can have eternal life and still get killed by an outside force; I've seen the idea used in more series than just Dragonball.

MartianOddity · Post by **MartianOddity** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:11 am

Domon wrote:
GI_Judd2287 wrote: Expect that it was pointed out earlier that Roshi lied about ever having taken the immortality elixir. There's nothing to this idea of Roshi being immortal. He's just helluva old.

Even if it's a gag, it's a part of the storyline, the fact that Kame-Sennin got his immortality from that bird. Kame-Sennin didn't want Tenshinhan to interfere and told him that he had been drinking from an elixir. Probably Tenshinhan didn't know which kind of immortality Kame-Sennin had and how he got hold of it and therefore he got fooled.

As said earlier, it's not a family trait (not saying that Domon said it is).
Tsufuru-Sennin and Uranai Baba are old too. Kame-Sennin is not related to Tsufuru-Sennin which blows the theory that he's old because of genetics.
I believe that these three people are old because of the bird of immortality that Kame-Sennin got hold of.

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:16 pm

Even if it's a gag, it's a part of the storyline, the fact that Kame-Sennin got his immortality from that bird.

The same bird that died?

But where's the part saying the bird granted him immortality? Unless the bird was brought up later on, there's nothing in that first meeting to say that Roshi got immortality from it.

MartianOddity · Post by **MartianOddity** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:28 am

Domon wrote: The same bird that died? But where's the part saying the bird granted him immortality? Unless the bird was brought up later on, there's nothing in that first meeting to say that Roshi got immortality from it.

It was food poisoning, which I am sure Kame-Sennin can die of too (which explains why he got sick of the fish Ranchi cooked them). His immortality covers only the death of age.
In the manga he says something like this: "Well, since you were so kind, I will grant you immortality." and then he calls out it name to summon it. Umigame informs him that the bird died long time ago, and doesn't deny it's existance and ability. Umigame is not the one to lie, and he corrects Kame-Sennin everytime he lies.

Gokuden553 · Post by **Gokuden553** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:57 am

Roshi isn't as emortal as you thought, he still got killed by King Piccolo and when Majin Buu turned him into chocolate

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:09 am

Gokuden553 wrote:Roshi isn't as emortal as you thought, he still got killed by King Piccolo and when Majin Buu turned him into chocolate

Please read the other posts in the thread and you will found out that we all agree on that.
He is immortal indeed, but only by means of natural death. If someone stabs him he will die, but not by age. It takes reading all the information regarding the immortality business of Master Roshi to find that out.

Gokuden553 · Post by **Gokuden553** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:33 am

Godo wrote:
Gokuden553 wrote:Roshi isn't as emortal as you thought, he still got killed by King Piccolo and when Majin Buu turned him into chocolate
Please read the other posts in the thread and you will found out that we all agree on that.
He is immortal indeed, but only by means of natural death. If someone stabs him he will die, but not by age. It takes reading all the information regarding the immortality business of Master Roshi to find that out.

Ah sorry about that I'll read the other posts now ^^;

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:02 pm

MartianOddity wrote:
Domon wrote: The same bird that died? But where's the part saying the bird granted him immortality? Unless the bird was brought up later on, there's nothing in that first meeting to say that Roshi got immortality from it.
It was food poisoning, which I am sure Kame-Sennin can die of too (which explains why he got sick of the fish Ranchi cooked them). His immortality covers only the death of age.
In the manga he says something like this: "Well, since you were so kind, I will grant you immortality." and then he calls out it name to summon it. Umigame informs him that the bird died long time ago, and doesn't deny it's existance and ability. Umigame is not the one to lie, and he corrects Kame-Sennin everytime he lies.

You didn't even answer my question. I asked where it was stated that the bird gave Roshi immortality. The passage you've quoted doesn't say anything about whenever or not this unseen bird did anything to Roshi. It onlys states that Roshi knew the bird, knew of its power, and killed it by accident. Now I ask again if this bird was ever brought up again and where the passage is that states that it gave him immortaliy. Dragonball is a looooong series in any forms, so it's pretty easy to forget a few details, but the one in question is nowhere to be found in the passage we're looking at.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:35 pm

He never said the bird gave him immortality, what he (or was it Umigame?) said was that he drank the Elixir or Immortality.

The bird is completely unrelated...also, why would Muten-Roshi make that up at the time? He'd have to reason to over 3 years before he used it as an "excuse" for Tenshinhan.

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:24 am

He never said the bird gave him immortality, what he (or was it Umigame?) said was that he drank the Elixir or Immortality.

Thing is; people keep saying the bird gave him immortality--not just here, but I recall seeing it elsewhere-- so for awhile I assumed this was true, but then I reread the passage where this silly bird is mentioned and saw none of this "fact". So I'm wondering just where the heck this "information" is coming from. Unless this is brought up later/an anime-only line, we're looking at helluva misinformation here.

So, the bird never gave Roshi immortaliy(unless someone can prove it), and Roshi himself states he never drank the immortality elixir(proven in manga volume 12). Thus, Roshi is NOT immortal, and is just reeeeeeeally helluva old.

Oh, and Duo, Umigame said that line. Given that Roshi later said he didn't drink it, that would suggest that Umigame was misinformed (most likely by Roshi himself) about it.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:02 am

The lines...

"Need I remind you that this 'dying old man' drank the immortality Elixir?!"

"Don't bother me with details!!" (angrily)

Why on Earth would Toriyama-sensei plant this "detail" in Volume 2 only to reject it in Volume 12? I makes no sense! Clearly, he drank something that made it so he would never age to death, but could die of other causes. Why is it so hard to come to this conclusion?

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:12 am

Why on Earth would Toriyama-sensei plant this "detail" in Volume 2 only to reject it in Volume 12?

So that he could kill off Roshi. This detail made it impossible(at least in his view) to kill off Roshi, so he had to "undo" it. Of course, I can't state what he actually thought, but this seems like a reasonble guesswork.

The lines in quesion(in volume 13 actually. woops, whatever):

Roshi(pg. 17): Don't worry. I won't die. For I've drunk the Elixir of Immortality.

Roshi(pg. 18 ): I'm afraid I lied about the Elixir of Immortality.

The only thing he ever said about the elixir is that he drank it. Thus, the only lie he possibily could make was that he drank it. Therefore, he never drank it. Yes, I know the counterpoint to that is "he was talking about the not dying part", but that seems a little odd. Roshi makes a very specific reference to the elixir. Why say that if wasn't lying about drinking it? Why not just say "I'm afraid I lied" or "I've mislead you" or "I can still be killed"? That he very specifically refers to it that sentence would strongly suggests that he is referring to the one other sentence where he brings it up.

KinoFourpaws · Post by **KinoFourpaws** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:18 am

Duo wrote:The lines...

"Need I remind you that this 'dying old man' drank the immortality Elixir?!"

"Don't bother me with details!!" (angrily)

Why on Earth would Toriyama-sensei plant this "detail" in Volume 2 only to reject it in Volume 12? I makes no sense! Clearly, he drank something that made it so he would never age to death, but could die of other causes. Why is it so hard to come to this conclusion?

I realize this is sort of off-topic, but aren't these lines quoted from Volume 1? o_O;

And really, I'm not sure Toriyama thought that far ahead when he mentioned this detail. I've read in some part of the manga (I'm not sure where, except in maybe one of the letters after the end of the volume) that Toriyama first thought to end the series at Volume 13. (It was either that or he intended to end it with Volume 10; it's been a good while since I read that part of the manga, so I'm not entirely sure of the details anymore. Could someone who has access to the manga look that up for me, please, just to make sure?) So, if he had anticipated for the story to stop before Piccolo Daimao came along (again, I'm not sure where this is exactly; this is probably in Volume 13, which contradicts what I said before. Actually, I think Toriyama expected it would end after the defeat of the Red Ribbon Army, and I'm not even sure what volume THAT'S in, which proves my faulty memory @_@), then chances are this Muten-Roshi being immortal business was just a stray detail. It's most likely a plot hole derived from Toriyama not forseeing his work to be such a success.

Again, my solid support coming from knowledge of the manga is extremely lacking, and I apologize. I can't currently look this up to prove what I'm saying; though I would greatly appreciate it if someone else who can would do so to see if they can verify this. I don't want to go around providing faulty information...

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:06 am

Domon wrote: The only thing he ever said about the elixir is that he drank it. Thus, the only lie he possibily could make was that he drank it. Therefore, he never drank it. Yes, I know the counterpoint to that is "he was talking about the not dying part", but that seems a little odd. Roshi makes a very specific reference to the elixir. Why say that if wasn't lying about drinking it? Why not just say "I'm afraid I lied" or "I've mislead you" or "I can still be killed"? That he very specifically refers to it that sentence would strongly suggests that he is referring to the one other sentence where he brings it up.

Well then, we could get into the integrity of the sentence translation (since there are many ways to translate a Japanese sentence) as well as interpretation issues, so how about we agree to just give it up for the time being? You and I see it differently, and neither will back down.

KinoFourpaws wrote:
I realize this is sort of off-topic, but aren't these lines quoted from Volume 1? o_O;

No. They are from volume 2, when Goku and Chichi ask Kame-sen'nin for the fan.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:53 am

Domon wrote:
Why on Earth would Toriyama-sensei plant this "detail" in Volume 2 only to reject it in Volume 12?
So that he could kill off Roshi. This detail made it impossible(at least in his view) to kill off Roshi, so he had to "undo" it. Of course, I can't state what he actually thought, but this seems like a reasonble guesswork.

The lines in quesion(in volume 13 actually. woops, whatever):

Roshi(pg. 17): Don't worry. I won't die. For I've drunk the Elixir of Immortality.

Roshi(pg. 18 ): I'm afraid I lied about the Elixir of Immortality.

The only thing he ever said about the elixir is that he drank it. Thus, the only lie he possibily could make was that he drank it. Therefore, he never drank it. Yes, I know the counterpoint to that is "he was talking about the not dying part", but that seems a little odd. Roshi makes a very specific reference to the elixir. Why say that if wasn't lying about drinking it? Why not just say "I'm afraid I lied" or "I've mislead you" or "I can still be killed"? That he very specifically refers to it that sentence would strongly suggests that he is referring to the one other sentence where he brings it up.

Perhaps a lie by misinformation. Roshi says he can't die from King Piccolo because of the elixir. So, his lie about the elixir is that it would prevent King Piccolo from killing him, or that it would prevent the Evil Containment Wave from killing him.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:48 pm

That's how I've always seen it. He lied to Tenshinhan that he couldn't die, period, when he just couldn't die from old age.