Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

What numbers do you guys have for Ten and Krillin in both the Cell and Buu arcs?

[ZombieVito]

Did Goku and co get any stronger between the defeat of the RRA and confronting Baba?

No statement was made so my guess is they are the same.

when did the humans also get several times stronger to get to their 22nd Budokai levels?

The time when the plot started to kick in.

What numbers do you guys have for Ten and Krillin in both the Cell and Buu arcs?

Currently going with:

Krillin
-- Cell arc: 2,800,000
-- Buu arc: 3,000,000

Tenshinhan
-- Cell arc: 2,000,000
-- Buu arc: 2,400,000

[RandomGuy96]

Did Goku and co get any stronger between the defeat of the RRA and confronting Baba?

No statement was made so my guess is they are the same.

when did the humans also get several times stronger to get to their 22nd Budokai levels?

The time when the plot started to kick in.

So the Goku that fought Gohan, Mummy, and Devilman would be the same one that crushed Tao Paipai? And the versions of Yamcha, Krillin, and Roshi there would be as powerful as they were at the 21st? I'm trying to work out levels for everything in between Pilaf's defeat and the start of the 22nd Budokai, but it's rather difficult. Partly because, back then, Toriyama didn't care so much about remaining consistent. As you can see in the above posts.

At the minimum, no one before Tao should be anywhere close to 100, as RRA arc Goku could still be hurt by pistol bullets, and his equal if not slight superior at the time, Roshi, admits he couldn't have defeated the RRA base garrison alone. It makes me wonder if someone like Blue could survive getting shot by a rifle... whatever the case may be, most likely post-training Goku shouldn't be 100 either, as a single missile was implied to be a big threat to him.

[ZombieVito]

To be fair Roshi said it was a matter of stamina not power.

Where are you getting that a BP 100 = dead by a missile?

And I agree Tao (or anyone below him) should not be close, equal or higher to 100. That honor should be for post Karin Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

To be fair Roshi said it was a matter of stamina not power.

Where are you getting that a BP 100 = dead by a missile?

And I agree Tao (or anyone below him) should not be close, equal or higher to 100. That honor should be for post Karin Goku.

True, but Roshi at this point should be tremendously weaker than Goku, who can still be fazed by conventional weaponry (Pilaf's missile, the battleship's main gun comment from the guidebook, Pilaf's flamethrower, a RRA soldier's WW2-looking rocket launcher, another RRA soldier's sniper rifle). He should be around the level of the same Goku that was hurt by pistol bullets. Roshi himself could pluck bullets out of the air effortlessly, but as you said, he apparently lacked stamina, so he wouldn't have been able to keep doing that, nor would he have been able to do it to multiple people at once. Then again it does make you wonder why Goku couldn't do that when shot at by White...

When Pilaf and co shoot a missile at Goku, one about the size of Goku himself, they're confident it'll kill him. He chooses to deflect it rather than tank it, which implies to me he's still below 100. A battle power of 100 is supposed to give you destructive power equal to a battleship's main cannon, and presumably the durability to survive one of your own attacks.

EDIT: Goku also considers kicking away one of the missiles the RRA shoots at him when storming their base to be a rather close call, but that missile somehow proceeded to blow up half a mountain...

Also, more random comments on your list:

-Now that I've posted the Daizenshuu quote about Cymbal's battle power being several times less than Tambourine's (e.g. if Tambourine is 140, Cymbal is 35), are you going to change it to reflect that? Or just ignore the Daizenshuu and Piccolo here and go off his fight with Yajirobe?
-Post-energy Gero at 160 million seems a little high compared to Piccolo at 190 million, as Piccolo completely demolished Gero, and cut off his arm.
-Really, what reason is there to have Gotenks weaker than fatso after he's formed and then make a humongous gain in the ROSAT? How does the story make sense if Goku and Piccolo were screwing the Earth?
-Gap between 17 and 16 seems a bit small.

[Saiga]

Why would the amount he's suppressed to be proportionally less than the amount Goku is suppressed to? Basically, if Yamcha is suppressed to ten thousand or so (enough to be mistaken for a Goku moderately stronger than the one in the Saiyan arc), and his true power is sixty thousand, then why is Goku ALSO suppressed to around ten thousand (which was my point on Gero's reaction), when his true power is four million?

I don't know what Goku was trying to do when fighting the Ginyus. Maybe hide his presence from Freeza or Ginyu, in case they had scouters? Because otherwise I see no reason for him to not just to suppressing himself. Or maybe he was just screwing with them.

What scene proves that?

I think the point they suppress themselves is influenced a lot by individual choice, since they can essentially freely pick any level below their base to do so. If it's for energy conservation purposes, then there might be an ideal level where you start using more energy going beyond that. If so everyone would probably just be right below that level. That requires assumptions, but I'd guess it'd be just as much as an assumption to think everyone is suppressed in identical proportions.

That's why I got with Vegeta's comments about energy conservation. Because I don't see any other reason for Goku to be doing that.

And I was actually mistaken for the Boo arc thing, since looking at the quote Kaioshin was clearly talking about Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Still, there's Piccolo's quote:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

Because of this, most people agree Piccolo was massively suppressed. But Piccolo's not just talking about himself, he's talking about the entire group here.

[RandomGuy96]

I think the point they suppress themselves is influenced a lot by individual choice, since they can essentially freely pick any level below their base to do so. If it's for energy conservation purposes, then there might be an ideal level where you start using more energy going beyond that. If so everyone would probably just be right below that level. That requires assumptions, but I'd guess it'd be just as much as an assumption to think everyone is suppressed in identical proportions.

That's why I got with Vegeta's comments about energy conservation. Because I don't see any other reason for Goku to be doing that.

But, by that logic, the default of every fighter in the universe is to waste energy. I don't think merely being at full power should waste any energy, and I can't see how one would tire themselves out by throwing literally two punches.

And I was actually mistaken for the Boo arc thing, since looking at the quote Kaioshin was clearly talking about Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Still, there's Piccolo's quote:
Because of this, most people agree Piccolo was massively suppressed. But Piccolo's not just talking about himself, he's talking about the entire group here.

That quote never made any sense to me. He said he and the others "amplify" their energy... which sounds like kaio-ken, not just suppressing your power and then deciding not to suppress it, which is what people usually assume Piccolo was doing here.

Also, do you have any input on this Pilaf to Tenshinhan talk, or the Cymbal issue? Or do you just not bother at all with that portion of the series?

[ZombieVito]

To be fair Roshi said it was a matter of stamina not power.

Where are you getting that a BP 100 = dead by a missile?

And I agree Tao (or anyone below him) should not be close, equal or higher to 100. That honor should be for post Karin Goku.

True, but Roshi at this point should be tremendously weaker than Goku, who can still be fazed by conventional weaponry (Pilaf's missile, the battleship's main gun comment from the guidebook, Pilaf's flamethrower, a RRA soldier's WW2-looking rocket launcher, another RRA soldier's sniper rifle). He should be around the level of the same Goku that was hurt by pistol bullets. Roshi himself could pluck bullets out of the air effortlessly, but as you said, he apparently lacked stamina, so he wouldn't have been able to keep doing that, nor would he have been able to do it to multiple people at once. Then again it does make you wonder why Goku couldn't do that when shot at by White...

When Pilaf and co shoot a missile at Goku, one about the size of Goku himself, they're confident it'll kill him. He chooses to deflect it rather than tank it, which implies to me he's still below 100. A battle power of 100 is supposed to give you destructive power equal to a battleship's main cannon, and presumably the durability to survive one of your own attacks.

EDIT: Goku also considers kicking away one of the missiles the RRA shoots at him when storming their base to be a rather close call, but that missile somehow proceeded to blow up half a mountain...

Also, more random comments on your list:

-Now that I've posted the Daizenshuu quote about Cymbal's battle power being several times less than Tambourine's (e.g. if Tambourine is 140, Cymbal is 35), are you going to change it to reflect that? Or just ignore the Daizenshuu and Piccolo here and go off his fight with Yajirobe?
-Post-energy Gero at 160 million seems a little high compared to Piccolo at 190 million, as Piccolo completely demolished Gero, and cut off his arm.
-Really, what reason is there to have Gotenks weaker than fatso after he's formed and then make a humongous gain in the ROSAT? How does the story make sense if Goku and Piccolo were screwing the Earth?
-Gap between 17 and 16 seems a bit small.

You really make good points. 100 should be the limit for RRA Goku. Time to change my BP.

[RandomGuy96]

Keep in mind that there wasn't a lot of consistency in power at this time, and a lot of gag-based injuries and gag-based weapons... but some points should still stand. Some things that stick out to me on the topic of ki vs regular weaponry:

-BODB Goku is hurt a lot (but not really "damaged") by a shot to the head from Bulma's pistol (which looks like a Walter PPK).
-BODB Krillin is afraid of policemen with guns.
-BODB Goku has an axe swung by a full grown man break on his head with just a small bruise to show for it.
-RRA Goku is hurt by several shots from White's revolver, but not damaged.
-RRA Goku is paralyzed by Blue. Blue prepares to finish him off with a shotgun blast. Though since he was paralyzed, he probably couldn't use his ki to defend himself, like what happened when Guldo paralyzed Gohan and Krillin.
-RRA Roshi states he couldn't have taken the RRA base by himself, and is awed when Goku did.
-RRA Roshi knocked out several RRA soldiers quickly before they could react. One of them does react, by firing at him with a Sten, but Roshi catches all of the bullets before they can hit him (implying he's still faster/stronger than Goku?).
-RRA Roshi, Goku, and Krillin were apparently going to get killed when Blue tied them up and planted a bomb next to them.
-Bora was completely unphased (aside from gritting his teeth) at being shot dozens of times with pistols, submachine guns, and shotguns by RRA soldiers.
-Post-Karin Goku has to kick back a grenade that Tao threw at him while he was off guard, which seriously injures a weakened Tao (though it could be some pseudo-sci-fi grenade).
-Post-Karin Goku bothers to dodge autocannon and machine gun fire.
-Post-Karin Goku gets shot in the face with a sniper rifle, and while it doesn't damage him, it still moves his head, and causes him to rub the spot that was hit and say "ow".
-Post-Karin Goku gets shot with a WW2-esque rocket launcher. He takes it with minor damage; he gets some scuffs and bruises, torn clothes, and it apparently hurt a lot because he's really pissed off afterward, but nothing else.
-Post-Karin Goku bothered to deflect Pilaf's missile rather than tanking it.
-A battle power of 100 is equivalent to the power of a battleship's main gun.
-A battle power of 260 is equivalent to a small nuclear bomb.

Post-Karin Goku being below 100 would also leave more room to fit in Chapa, who is apparently superior to post-Karin Goku, but way weaker than Tambourine, who himself is way weaker than 22nd Budokai Goku.

[Saiga]

Only the ones above a certain level, anyway (Goku's not wasting any energy at 5,000 which is still pretty high). And we know Freeza wastes energy at 100%, right? Vegeta also mentions races using transformations to conserve energy. So, it might seem a bit silly, but that appears to be the case. It also might just be something more along the lines of Goku doing those two punches takes less energy than if Ginyu did it. Only something that would matter in the long run, but when you've mastered ki control to the level Goku has, why not? It's just more efficient.

Funnily enough, I also just paused at the "amplify" thing. In Herms' translations, amplify is only used in regards to the Kaio-ken and in Piccolo's quote. Maybe this can be explained by the theory that Goku's 924 was his true power against Raditz, but could only draw out that power while performing the Kamehameha. Then as they get more skilled, they do this in every aspect rather than just ki attacks.

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but on the proportion of suppression - Saiyan and Namek arc Goku both suppressed themselves to the same level: 5,000. That's part of what influences me in thinking that this becomes Goku's default level. Vegeta also doesn't seem to have a reason to be suppressed below 18,000 when confronting Cui (although doing it to mess with him would be in character) so I also think after learning to control his ki his default / resting level became somewhere below that.

On the current discussion, I'm reading it, but don't really have anything to add. I tend not to bother with pre-Z power levels any more, but I'm paying attention in case somebody comes up with something that makes me more interested. And hell, back when I worked with them I didn't even take into consideration things like Chappa so with that in mind it'd probably be even harder to work out.

[ZombieVito]

Keep in mind that there wasn't a lot of consistency in power at this time, and a lot of gag-based injuries and gag-based weapons... but some points should still stand. Some things that stick out to me on the topic of ki vs regular weaponry:

-BODB Goku is hurt a lot (but not really "damaged") by a shot to the head from Bulma's pistol (which looks like a Walter PPK).
-BODB Krillin is afraid of policemen with guns.
-BODB Goku has an axe swung by a full grown man break on his head with just a small bruise to show for it.
-RRA Goku is hurt by several shots from White's revolver, but not damaged.
-RRA Goku is paralyzed by Blue. Blue prepares to finish him off with a shotgun blast. Though since he was paralyzed, he probably couldn't use his ki to defend himself, like what happened when Guldo paralyzed Gohan and Krillin.
-RRA Roshi states he couldn't have taken the RRA base by himself, and is awed when Goku did.
-RRA Roshi knocked out several RRA soldiers quickly before they could react. One of them does react, by firing at him with a Sten, but Roshi catches all of the bullets before they can hit him (implying he's still faster/stronger than Goku?).
-RRA Roshi, Goku, and Krillin were apparently going to get killed when Blue tied them up and planted a bomb next to them.
-Post-Karin Goku has to kick back a grenade that Tao threw at him while he was off guard, which seriously injures a weakened Tao (though it could be some pseudo-sci-fi grenade).
-Post-Karin Goku bothers to dodge autocannon and machine gun fire.
-Post-Karin Goku gets shot in the face with a sniper rifle, and while it doesn't damage him, it still moves his head, and causes him to rub the spot that was hit and say "ow".
-Post-Karin Goku gets shot with a WW2-esque rocket launcher. He takes it with minor damage; he gets some scuffs and bruises, torn clothes, and it apparently hurt a lot because he's really pissed off afterward, but nothing else.
-Post-Karin Goku bothered to deflect Pilaf's missile rather than tanking it.
-A battle power of 100 is equivalent to the power of a battleship's main gun.
-A battle power of 260 is equivalent to a small nuclear bomb.

Post-Karin Goku being below 100 would also leave more room to fit in Chapa, who is apparently superior to post-Karin Goku, but way weaker than Tambourine, who himself is way weaker than 22nd Budokai Goku.

Did 22nd Budokai Krillin and Yamcha surpassed RRA Goku? What do you think?

[RandomGuy96]

Did 22nd Budokai Krillin and Yamcha surpassed RRA Goku? What do you think?

Most likely they did. Roshi went from whatever number he was at in the RRA arc to 139 at the 22nd Budokai. I imagine Yamcha and Krillin made similar leaps. And, well, the story does treat them as somewhat relevant; Roshi is shocked that someone could be so strong that they could easily defeat Yamcha, and almost immediately after is shocked that someone is strong enough to kill Krillin, and considers Goku an idiot for going after that person at less than full power. Maybe they didn't surpass him by much, though, which leads me to my next point:

Do you think Chapa should be stronger than them? They both seemed to think Goku was in for the fight of his life with that guy, and I don't recall anything being stated about how they stacked up to him. Were they confident they could match or beat Goku? Because otherwise, their statements that Chapa could match or almost match Goku would basically be stating Chapa > them. Perhaps that doesn't mean much, and they were indeed confident they'd surpassed Goku by now (though I find it unlikely). Roshi was one of the guys that stated Chapa should be a challenge, and he must have been stronger than him. But Krillin and Yamcha... I'm not sure.

Another perk of keeping everyone really low until Tao: Cymbal could be both many times weaker than Tambourine and stronger than the majority of the Earth's best martial artists (such as Nam, Giran, Bacterian, and Blue), thus justifying Piccolo's surprise that an Earthling could beat him. Then again, at a level that low, the military could also kill him, though Piccolo was probably just counting on him avoiding any significant forces (also, DB Earth's military appears to be tiny and mostly confided to one city, and the majority of settlements we see only have police). Furthermore, that still wouldn't explain his fight with Yajirobe, so meh.

Only the ones above a certain level, anyway (Goku's not wasting any energy at 5,000 which is still pretty high). And we know Freeza wastes energy at 100%, right? Vegeta also mentions races using transformations to conserve energy. So, it might seem a bit silly, but that appears to be the case. It also might just be something more along the lines of Goku doing those two punches takes less energy than if Ginyu did it. Only something that would matter in the long run, but when you've mastered ki control to the level Goku has, why not? It's just more efficient.

Funnily enough, I also just paused at the "amplify" thing. In Herms' translations, amplify is only used in regards to the Kaio-ken and in Piccolo's quote. Maybe this can be explained by the theory that Goku's 924 was his true power against Raditz, but could only draw out that power while performing the Kamehameha. Then as they get more skilled, they do this in every aspect rather than just ki attacks.

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but on the proportion of suppression - Saiyan and Namek arc Goku both suppressed themselves to the same level: 5,000. That's part of what influences me in thinking that this becomes Goku's default level. Vegeta also doesn't seem to have a reason to be suppressed below 18,000 when confronting Cui (although doing it to mess with him would be in character) so I also think after learning to control his ki his default / resting level became somewhere below that.

On the current discussion, I'm reading it, but don't really have anything to add. I tend not to bother with pre-Z power levels any more, but I'm paying attention in case somebody comes up with something that makes me more interested. And hell, back when I worked with them I didn't even take into consideration things like Chappa so with that in mind it'd probably be even harder to work out.

I always thought that was because Freeza's "100%" was another transformation, similar to Super Saiyan Grade 2, that boosts his power but uses up energy. And yes, Vegeta did say that, but it never made sense to me then either.

I don't follow. Goku's real battle power would be 924?

I would agree, but we later see Trunks come to Earth and he's suppressed to 5. So I don't think there's any significance to the 5,000 number, Toriyama just decided to use it twice for very similar situations.

Vegeta suppressed himself below 18,000 when confronting Cui, and that was indeed just to screw with him. I doubt that became his new "default level", since if 5,000 was the magic number, Kui probably wouldn't believe his scouter. He thought Vegeta slacked off, but nothing would really explain him losing more than two thirds of his power.

Yeah, I can see that. The numbers given at the beginning of the series clearly were not at all concerned with fitting remotely with the previous chapters, despite the guidebooks' attempts to give pre-Raditz characters battle power numbers. More generally, up until the 22nd Budokai, Toriyama didn't care about keeping the strength relations consistent with each other, and the tone was often hard to discern, so it's somewhat difficult to determine which feats were gags and which feats aren't. If there even is a distinction.

Some of this just seems weird though, like the guidebooks stating that Cymbal's battle power is several times less than Tambourine's. I know that's what Piccolo himself said, but he didn't specifically mention battle power, and it's not like they bothered with anything else Piccolo said (like Junior saying he was several times stronger than Senior, or Senior saying he only used half his power against Goku). Or at least they didn't assume that he meant "battle power".

[ZombieVito]

Did 22nd Budokai Krillin and Yamcha surpassed RRA Goku? What do you think?

Most likely they did. Roshi went from whatever number he was at in the RRA arc to 139 at the 22nd Budokai. I imagine Yamcha and Krillin made similar leaps. And, well, the story does treat them as somewhat relevant; Roshi is shocked that someone could be so strong that they could easily defeat Yamcha, and almost immediately after is shocked that someone is strong enough to kill Krillin, and considers Goku an idiot for going after that person at less than full power. Maybe they didn't surpass him by much, though, which leads me to my next point:

Do you think Chapa should be stronger than them? They both seemed to think Goku was in for the fight of his life with that guy, and I don't recall anything being stated about how they stacked up to him. Were they confident they could match or beat Goku? Because otherwise, their statements that Chapa could match or almost match Goku would basically be stating Chapa > them. Perhaps that doesn't mean much, and they were indeed confident they'd surpassed Goku by now (though I find it unlikely). Roshi was one of the guys that stated Chapa should be a challenge, and he must have been stronger than him. But Krillin and Yamcha... I'm not sure.

I honestly don't know. I guess making him a rival to them is fine. I guess I will settle with these BP:

21st TB Goku: 40
Tao: 60
RRA Goku: 90
22nd TB Yamcha: 100
22nd TB Krillin: 105

Chapa being at 90-95 should be good.

[RandomGuy96]

Minor nitpick: RRA Goku (post-Karin) should be more like 75-80, as he was hurt by Tao's attacks.

Chapter: Chapter 92, P.7.1-6
Context: Tao Pai Pai hits Goku with his ultimate combo, but...
Tao Pai Pai: “Ha ha ha!! He’s finally dead!! When he finally realized the true fearsomeness of a professional killer, it was already too late!! Whaa?!”
*Goku's not dead*
Goku: “You’re as good as I thought. That really hurt.”

I'm still working on a battle power list, but at the moment I'd have something around this for these characters:

Goku
-Hunt for DBs: 10
-21st Budokai: 32
-Post-Karin training: 80
-22nd Budokai: 180

Roshi
-21st Budokai: 35
-22nd Budokai: 139

Krillin
-21st Budokai: 20
-22nd Budokai: 110

Yamcha
-Hunt for DBs: 9
-21st Budokai: 21
-22nd Budokai: 105

RRA
-Android 8: 88
-Tao: 60
-Blue: 25

Tournament Competitors
-Tenshinhan: 180
-Chi Chi: 130
-Chapa: 95
-Chiaotzu: 90
-Nam: 28
-Giran: 24
-Bacterian: 15
-Panput: 11
-Man-Wolf: 7

Baba's Warriors
-Devil: 66
-Mummy: 40
-Invisible Man: 16
-Vampire: 15

Demons
-Piano: 7
-Cymbal: 35
-Tambourine: 140
-Drum: 210

Random Assholes
-Big Castle Guard: 85
-Gohan: 70
-Ox-King: 45
-Bora: 40

Relevant quote: Krillin IS confident he can win against Goku after Goku crushes Chapa... though maybe he's just psyching himself up, and he's definitely going to rely on tricks rather than brute strength. Still, he's proud of his strength, and it's enough for me to give Krillin and Yamcha an advantage.

Chapter: 125, P3.3
Context: said before he fights Goku
Kuririn: “I’ve trained really hard since then too…I can definitely win! I’m gonna do this!”

[ZombieVito]

Minor nitpick: RRA Goku (post-Karin) should be more like 75-80, as he was hurt by Tao's attacks.

Chapter: Chapter 92, P.7.1-6
Context: Tao Pai Pai hits Goku with his ultimate combo, but...
Tao Pai Pai: “Ha ha ha!! He’s finally dead!! When he finally realized the true fearsomeness of a professional killer, it was already too late!! Whaa?!”
*Goku's not dead*
Goku: “You’re as good as I thought. That really hurt.”

Or make Tao stronger.

[RandomGuy96]

Yep. Though I prefer for him to be as weak as possible, so he'd be more confident in his cyborg upgrade.

[ZombieVito]

- Krillin weaker than Yamcha in 21st TB?
- No.8 That stronger?
- We almost have the same Bp for Uranai's fighters, neat.
- Roshi (21st BT) weaker than Ox-king?

[RandomGuy96]

- Krillin weaker than Yamcha in 21st TB?
- No.8 That stronger?
- We almost have the same Bp for Uranai's fighters, neat.
- Roshi (21st BT) weaker than Ox-king?

I decided to throw Yamcha a tiny bone of one battle power point before he quickly falls into the wayside

He didn't do anything after punching White, and his level is mostly a joke anyway.

Neato.

I thought about this one. Roshi is supposed to be the most powerful guy in the world... but we later learn that to be bull, as even discounting the gods we have guys like Tao and Bora. Ox-King is relatively young, so he wouldn't lose power even if he didn't train (and he likely still does keep himself in shape). Roshi easily regains all of his lost power after he trains, but the Roshi that trained Ox-King and Gohan is different from the one we have now. Plus, I think this would be the minimum level (as demonstrated by Bora) for most small arms to not effect you, and I can't see Ox-King getting done in by guys with guns. I think he'd tank most small arms fire to the torso like nothing, like Bora did, but not if he was shot in the face with a powerful rifle, like when Goku got sniped. Even then, he might survive it. He could still be killed by, say, anti-tank weaponry or artillery, though.

[Kid Buu]

Did you forget Ran Fan and Chichi or havent come to a conclusion for them yet?

[Saiga]

I always thought that was because Freeza's "100%" was another transformation, similar to Super Saiyan Grade 2, that boosts his power but uses up energy. And yes, Vegeta did say that, but it never made sense to me then either.

I don't see it that way, but it could be similar to the amplification that Piccolo is talking about.

I don't follow. Goku's real battle power would be 924?

Aren't you familiar with the theory that Goku, when fighting Raditz, had a battle power of 924 (or more accurately, 924+) rather than the 416 he was read at? That's what I was referring to. I know some have put forth the idea that 924 was Goku's full power, but could only be used when using the Kamehameha. So going off that, it's possible later on that they learned to amplify themselves the same way with regular attacks and defence.

I would agree, but we later see Trunks come to Earth and he's suppressed to 5. So I don't think there's any significance to the 5,000 number, Toriyama just decided to use it twice for very similar situations.

Oh, I only meant that 5,000 is the level for Goku, and it's not necessarily the same for everyone else. That's just the level Goku is comfortable at, but there'd be some leeway. Trunks I think must have been suppressed that far so nobody would sense him coming - he was planning on staying out of everything.

Vegeta suppressed himself below 18,000 when confronting Cui, and that was indeed just to screw with him. I doubt that became his new "default level", since if 5,000 was the magic number, Kui probably wouldn't believe his scouter. He thought Vegeta slacked off, but nothing would really explain him losing more than two thirds of his power.

Nah, I didn't mean to say 5,000 was the magic number for everyone, and I definitely think Vegeta would have been above 10,000 for Cui to believe it.

Yeah, I can see that. The numbers given at the beginning of the series clearly were not at all concerned with fitting remotely with the previous chapters, despite the guidebooks' attempts to give pre-Raditz characters battle power numbers. More generally, up until the 22nd Budokai, Toriyama didn't care about keeping the strength relations consistent with each other, and the tone was often hard to discern, so it's somewhat difficult to determine which feats were gags and which feats aren't. If there even is a distinction.

Some of this just seems weird though, like the guidebooks stating that Cymbal's battle power is several times less than Tambourine's. I know that's what Piccolo himself said, but he didn't specifically mention battle power, and it's not like they bothered with anything else Piccolo said (like Junior saying he was several times stronger than Senior, or Senior saying he only used half his power against Goku). Or at least they didn't assume that he meant "battle power".

Yeah, the weird thing is that the initial Saiyan arc battle powers given set the bar really low and things escalated from there, making it look like that's when things start escalating. But then there's a lot of dialogue and such in early DB that makes it sound like the inflation was nearly as extreme there, which is completely at odds with the low battle powers given.