Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Did you forget Ran Fan and Chichi or havent come to a conclusion for them yet?

Neither. I didn't list Chi Chi because that list didn't include the 23rd Budokai (and I don't think she's worth listing in the HFDB arc), and didn't list Ranfan because I don't care about her.

I'll add her. I also tweaked a few other things, like lowering Mummy based on this quote:

Context: Kuririn asks Kame-sennin if Goku has a chance against the mummy fighter.
Kame-sennin: “As he was up until now, Goku probably wouldn’t have been able to win…However, it looks like he’s definitely gotten better through this later training…I wonder what will happen…”

I don't see it that way, but it could be similar to the amplification that Piccolo is talking about.

It pretty much is a transformation, seeing as how it changes Freeza's body. I just find it simpler to assume that it's not a natural state, but rather something he figured out how to do. It's not like this would be unprecedented. See Roshi's buff form, SSG2, and the Makyan aliens from movie 1.

Aren't you familiar with the theory that Goku, when fighting Raditz, had a battle power of 924 (or more accurately, 924+) rather than the 416 he was read at? That's what I was referring to. I know some have put forth the idea that 924 was Goku's full power, but could only be used when using the Kamehameha. So going off that, it's possible later on that they learned to amplify themselves the same way with regular attacks and defence.

Yeah, but my theory would just be that 416 is a resting level and 924+ would be his true power. I don't think he would need a Kamehameha to bring it out.

Oh, I only meant that 5,000 is the level for Goku, and it's not necessarily the same for everyone else. That's just the level Goku is comfortable at, but there'd be some leeway. Trunks I think must have been suppressed that far so nobody would sense him coming - he was planning on staying out of everything.

Why would Goku love that specific number so much? Not that it doesn't work, I'm just saying that I think it's more likely that Toriyama just decided reuse the number, maybe even as a callback to the very similar situation with Nappa.

Yeah, the weird thing is that the initial Saiyan arc battle powers given set the bar really low and things escalated from there, making it look like that's when things start escalating. But then there's a lot of dialogue and such in early DB that makes it sound like the inflation was nearly as extreme there, which is completely at odds with the low battle powers given.

I wouldn't say that (even if taking every statement there literally, I'd say the Saiyan arc's bloat alone is larger than most if not all of the pre-Raditz story's... and let's not even talk about Freeza), but yeah, it does seem way more bloated than the actual numbers would have you think. It wouldn't be so much of a problem in most cases, but when you've got Piccolo very specifically saying he's not putting out a certain amount of power, and the guidebooks confirming that Piccolo is referring to battle power when he makes statements like this, it kinda creates hole, even before considering the basic inconsistency Toriyama displayed (i.e. Cymbal is several times weaker than Tambourine, even though the former does way better against a Goku-level fighter than the latter does).

The one place where the inflation is really bad is the 23rd Budokai. Piccolo Daimao can be curb-stomped by this new genie. This new genie is much weaker than this old god, who can literally defeat Daimao with the flick of a finger. Daimao is surpassed by Tenshinhan doing a few years of mountain training. The new Piccolo brags that he's many times stronger than the old one. He fights Kami near-evenly... but then after, reveals he was just holding back. He fights Goku alone, with no one even being able to track his movements, not even Kami. Finally, near the end of Goku's battle, after all hope looks lost, Kami, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Chi Chi, and Chiaotzu briefly contemplate attacking the exhausted, injured, half-dead Piccolo together, only for him to point out that he'll easily kill them even in this state. Kami says he's right, and that absolutely none of them could even see him move if they were to try to gang up on him.

[Saiga]

It pretty much is a transformation, seeing as how it changes Freeza's body. I just find it simpler to assume that it's not a natural state, but rather something he figured out how to do. It's not like this would be unprecedented. See Roshi's buff form, SSG2, and the Makyan aliens from movie 1.

Well yeah, in a literal sense it is because it changes the shape of his body. But I don't see it being all that different from any of his other percentage changes, except for the appearance and drawback. I think it's exactly what he says it is, and something he's always had. I don't even know what to think of Roshi's buff form since it disappears completely when the series becomes more serious (and Roshi stops being so damn skinny).

Yeah, but my theory would just be that 416 is a resting level and 924+ would be his true power. I don't think he would need a Kamehameha to bring it out.

I'm not sure I like that idea so much because then it feels largely like coincidence he used his full power when using the Kamehameha.

Why would Goku love that specific number so much? Not that it doesn't work, I'm just saying that I think it's more likely that Toriyama just decided reuse the number, maybe even as a callback to the very similar situation with Nappa.

As a resting level, I don't think it's be entirely deliberate on Goku's part. It'd just be the point where Goku feels most comfortable, and even as he gets stronger he keeps returning to that point. I can't blame you for thinking it's a callback to Nappa though, given the extreme similarities in the two fights.

I wouldn't say that (even if taking every statement there literally, I'd say the Saiyan arc's bloat alone is larger than most if not all of the pre-Raditz story's... and let's not even talk about Freeza), but yeah, it does seem way more bloated than the actual numbers would have you think. It wouldn't be so much of a problem in most cases, but when you've got Piccolo very specifically saying he's not putting out a certain amount of power, and the guidebooks confirming that Piccolo is referring to battle power when he makes statements like this, it kinda creates hole, even before considering the basic inconsistency Toriyama displayed (i.e. Cymbal is several times weaker than Tambourine, even though the former does way better against a Goku-level fighter than the latter does).

Yeah, I guess it wouldn't be as extreme as Saiyan and Freeza, but maybe in-line with Android arc and Boo arc increases.

Finally, near the end of Goku's battle, after all hope looks lost, Kami, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, and Chiaotzu briefly contemplate attacking the exhausted, injured, half-dead Piccolo together, only for him to point out that he'll easily kill them even in this state. Kami says he's right, and that absolutely none of them could even see him move if they were to try to gang up on him.

Hehe... yeah. I remember when I read through the 23rd Budokai, being extremely confused at this part. I honestly didn't get the sense that the gaps were so massive that everyone dogpiling Piccolo while the latter is on the verge of collapse would be completely ineffective. Then they say that, and it's just... weird.

[Kid Buu]

Finally, near the end of Goku's battle, after all hope looks lost, Kami, Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, and Chiaotzu briefly contemplate attacking the exhausted, injured, half-dead Piccolo together, only for him to point out that he'll easily kill them even in this state. Kami says he's right, and that absolutely none of them could even see him move if they were to try to gang up on him.

Killing Kami would effectively kill himself, making Goku win the fight through default.

[RandomGuy96]

Well yeah, in a literal sense it is because it changes the shape of his body. But I don't see it being all that different from any of his other percentage changes, except for the appearance and drawback. I think it's exactly what he says it is, and something he's always had. I don't even know what to think of Roshi's buff form since it disappears completely when the series becomes more serious (and Roshi stops being so damn skinny).

I think there's a pretty clear difference between this and the percent changes. He has to take several seconds to power up, his body changes, and his power starts rapidly falling off. With all of his other percent changes, he could switch powers instantly, suffer no drawbacks, and he looks the same. This does not look or act like a natural state. His design gives off the impression it's an artificial form putting stress on his body.

EDIT: Also, if Freeza's natural state wastes energy, then his response to Vegeta when the latter suggested he transformed to conserve energy doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'm not sure I like that idea so much because then it feels largely like coincidence he used his full power when using the Kamehameha.

It'd be more like he was always using that power, but Raditz would only notice in that one instance. Or he just stopped suppressing himself when using the Kamehameha, and stayed at that level for the rest of the fight.

Hehe... yeah. I remember when I read through the 23rd Budokai, being extremely confused at this part. I honestly didn't get the sense that the gaps were so massive that everyone dogpiling Piccolo while the latter is on the verge of collapse would be completely ineffective. Then they say that, and it's just... weird.

Ditto. I thought it was pretty funny, though, if for no other reason than it underlined how useless the supporting cast really was at this point in the story.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Chapa. I thought the quotes would make that clear. Roshi, Yamcha, and Krillin all think Goku is going to have a very difficult time despite this being the same Goku that smoked Tao Paipai and long surpassed Roshi.

The only reason they expect Chappa to give a tough fight is because he was said to be a very powerful & very skillful man who won the Tenkaichi Budokai without getting touched by his opponents. Who wouldn't expect a difficult fight against a guy like that? But it turns out that Goku, along with everyone else, were far stronger than him.

And I just noticed that I forgot to include him in my list... He is there now.

Karin stated the training made Goku many times stronger.

I don't think this is supposed to be taken literally, especially since no one at that point has battle powers in their heads. I think it is meant to be taken as "you've gotten much stronger", like with Piccolo's comment.

[RandomGuy96]

Chapa. I thought the quotes would make that clear. Roshi, Yamcha, and Krillin all think Goku is going to have a very difficult time despite this being the same Goku that smoked Tao Paipai and long surpassed Roshi.

The only reason they expect Chappa to give a tough fight is because he was said to be a very powerful & very skillful man who won the Tenkaichi Budokai without getting touched by his opponents. Who wouldn't expect a difficult fight against a guy like that? But it turns out that Goku, along with everyone else, were far stronger than him.

Karin stated the training made Goku many times stronger.

I don't think this is supposed to be taken literally, especially since no one at that point has battle powers in their heads. I think it is meant to be taken as "you've gotten much stronger", like with Piccolo's comment.

Roshi can sense power at this point (as can Tenshinhan), and he, along with Yamcha, is the the one obsessing over Chapa and going on about how great of an opponent he'll be while Krillin is wondering what the big deal is. I'd like proof that Chapa was actually weak and Yamcha was wrong and Roshi was lying, as that's never stated anywhere, and Roshi's behavior in the following battle supports the exact opposite. He's SCARED by Goku easily beating Chapa:

Roshi on Gohan:
Kame-sennin: “That’s not what I was thinking about… The masked champion’s voice sounds vaguely familiar… I have the feeling that I’ve met him before…but I can’t remember the details… I can sense that he has an aura of great power, however…”
Yamcha: “What?! Power?! Him?!”

Yamcha and Krillin on Chapa:
Yamcha: “So that’s King Chapa, huh…? Poor Goku… To have to face such a tremendous opponent right away…”
Kuririn: “Who’s this King Chapa?”
Yamcha: “He’s said to be an incredible master…It seems that when he last participated, he won the entire tournament without once being struck by an opponent…!”
Kuririn: “Whoa…”
Yamcha: “Th-this could be bad… Of course, it is Goku… If he’s really on, he may squeak by…”

Roshi on Chapa:
Jackie Chun: “Mmm… King Chapa, eh…?”
Yamcha: “Mr. Chun…?”
Jackie Chun: “Son Goku has certainly found himself in a sticky match right from the very start…”
Yamcha: “Indeed…”

[Goku beats Chapa easily]
Goku: “I did it! I did it!”
Kuririn: “Be careful, Goku! If you put everything you’ve got into it from the start, you’ll wear yourself out!”
Goku: “But I didn’t put anywhere near everything I’ve got into it. If I did, he’d be dead. I wish they’d hurry up so I could fight with real strong guys like you all!”
Yamcha: “R-right… Hahaha…”
Jackie Chun (thinking): “Th-this could be bad…for me…”

Not to mention that Krillin, Yamcha, and Roshi, while watching the fight, are ridiculously impressed by Goku. If Chapa was weak as you claim, they would have been able to tell from his movements.

Proof? Because the Daizenshuu confirmed that in a near-identical statement from another person who didn't use battle power numbers, "many times stronger" literally referred to "many times the battle power".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Roshi can sense power at this point (as can Tenshinhan), and he, along with Yamcha, is the the one obsessing over Chapa and going on about how great of an opponent he'll be while Krillin is wondering what the big deal is. I'd like proof that Chapa was actually weak and Yamcha was wrong and Roshi was lying, as that's never stated anywhere, and Roshi's behavior in the following battle supports the exact opposite. He's SCARED by Goku easily beating Chapa:

That would mean that he wasn't using ki-sensing on Chappa. It doesn't make sense for him to be that strong when Goku was holding back so much so that he wouldn't kill him, while Yamcha, Kuririn, and Kame-sennin gave Goku & Tenshinhan a challenge, even if they were both holding back against them.

Proof? Because the Daizenshuu confirmed that in a near-identical statement from another person who didn't use battle power numbers, "many times stronger" literally referred to "many times the battle power".

What proof? It's my opinion, just like it's also your opinion.

[RandomGuy96]

Roshi can sense power at this point (as can Tenshinhan), and he, along with Yamcha, is the the one obsessing over Chapa and going on about how great of an opponent he'll be while Krillin is wondering what the big deal is. I'd like proof that Chapa was actually weak and Yamcha was wrong and Roshi was lying, as that's never stated anywhere, and Roshi's behavior in the following battle supports the exact opposite. He's SCARED by Goku easily beating Chapa:

That would mean that he wasn't using ki-sensing on Chappa. It doesn't make sense for him to be that strong when Goku was holding back so much so that he wouldn't kill him, while Yamcha, Kuririn, and Kame-sennin gave Goku & Tenshinhan a challenge, even if they were both holding back against them.

Proof? Because the Daizenshuu confirmed that in a near-identical statement from another person who didn't use battle power numbers, "many times stronger" literally referred to "many times the battle power".

What proof? It's my opinion, just like it's also your opinion.

Or, it means that he did, as he has literally no reason not to. Him not sensing ki while assessing Goku, himself, and Chapa, "just because", and then getting super intimidated over nothing because he keeps refusing to use this ability he had no problem using before, is an incredibly weak argument.

Yamcha and Krillin gave no challenge to Goku/Tenshinhan; it was only by holding back an enormous amount of power that they didn't instantly kill their opponents. Also, being far stronger than post-Karin Goku doesn't necessarily make him stronger than Krillin.

Proof that it was referring to some other form of measurement. Because the official stance doesn't support that. By putting RRA Goku so high, you are also basically going against the guidebook statement that a battle power of 100 is equivalent, in terms of power, to a battleship's main gun, considering Goku's performance against normal, man-portable weaponry as late as his rampage on the RRA base. A WW2-esque man portable rocket launcher causes minor damage to him. A missile is implied to be lethal. A battle jacket used by Black can smack him around. A single grenade to the face inflicted significant injuries on someone stronger than his pre-training self and not THAT much weaker than his post-training self, albeit after being weakened. Pre-training Goku can still be hurt by pistol bullets. Post-training Goku can still be hurt by high powered rifle bullets. Someone as strong or stronger than pre-training Goku says he couldn't take the RRA force post-training Goku did by himself, and doubts Goku could either until he learns that Goku climbed the tower. None of this goes with Goku being either around or far above the level that is require to dish out and survive attacks on par with a battleship's main gun.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Or, it means that he did, as he has literally no reason not to. Yamcha and Krillin gave no challenge to Goku/Tenshinhan; it was only by holding back an enormous amount of power that they didn't instantly kill their opponents. Also, being far stronger than post-Karin Goku doesn't necessarily make him stronger than Krillin.

Yamcha, Kuririn, and Kame-sennin actually fought with Goku & Tenshinhan. Chappa didn't have a real fight against Goku. That's enough for me to believe that Kame-sennin didn't sense his ki (He didn't want to spoil to himself who would win? Or he wasn't skilled enough to sense ki accurately?), and that Chappa is weak in front of everyone.

Proof that it was referring to some other form of measurement. Because the official stance doesn't support that.

What for of measurement? He is just saying that Goku got much stronger, just like Piccolo said that he was many times stronger, while he wasn't literally many times stronger.

[RandomGuy96]

Yamcha, Kuririn, and Kame-sennin actually fought with Goku & Tenshinhan. Chappa didn't have a real fight against Goku. That's enough for me to believe that Kame-sennin didn't sense his ki (He didn't want to spoil to himself who would win? Or he wasn't skilled enough to sense ki accurately?), and that Chappa is weak in front of everyone.

They only had "fights" because Goku/Tenshinhan decided to be dicks and toy with them, making them think they had a chance when they never did. Heck, Tenshinhan didn't use anywhere near his full power to beat the shit out of Yamcha:

Tsuru-sennin: “I wish I could have seen Kame-sennin’s face turn pale. But Tenshinhan’s greatness is much, much more than this.”

With Chapa, Goku just smacked him down. There's still nothing supporting that Roshi just decided not to sense ki like he has been shown to be able to do. When Roshi specifically says that Chapa is a very powerful foe that Goku should have a lot of trouble with, and gets the shit scared out of him when Goku easily beats him, there's no reason not to believe him, as he has both knowledge and ki sensing to back him up.

What for of measurement? He is just saying that Goku got much stronger, just like Piccolo said that he was many times stronger, while he wasn't literally many times stronger.

And why wouldn't it literally mean several times stronger? The guidebooks support it being literal, as they stated that Piccolo was referring to battle power when he made another "several times stronger" statement.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku & Tenshinhan were holding back against everyone they fought. Kuririn, Yamcha, and Kame-sennin gave them a fight, while Chappa didn't. It's that simple.

As for Kame-sennin's ki sensing, we don't know how skilled he is in it, and how accurate his senses are. He could only sense a powerful aura in Gohan, not his actual power.

And why wouldn't it literally mean several times stronger? The guidebooks support it being literal, as they stated that Piccolo was referring to battle power when he made another "several times stronger" statement.

Where do the guides support that Karin & Piccolo speak literally?

[RandomGuy96]

Goku & Tenshinhan were holding back against everyone they fought. Kuririn, Yamcha, and Kame-sennin gave them a fight, while Chappa didn't. It's that simple.

As for Kame-sennin's ki sensing, we don't know how skilled he is in it, and how accurate his senses are. He could only sense a powerful aura in Gohan, not his actual power.

Not really. It doesn't mean anything since they were holding back enormous amounts of power and taking it easy. Chapa meant nothing to Goku, so he got insta-stomped, while Goku went out of his way to have fun with Krillin, and treat him like a child. And again, Krillin being stronger than Chapa doesn't mean that Chapa isn't stronger than RRA arc Goku.

Plus that whole point I made about conventional weaponry. If a battle power of 100 is equivalent to the power of a battleship's main gun, there's no reason that a power around that (pre-training Goku) would still be threatened by pistol bullets and grenades, and no reason that a power far above that (post-training Goku) would be threatened by missiles and take damage from WW2-esque man-portable rocket launchers.

He could sense power from Gohan, which is how he was able to tell that Gohan would be a good fight, while everyone else was doubting he was anything special compared to the last fighters Goku curb-stomped. Yet suddenly he can't sense ki when making a statement about a fighter right in front of him who he compares with himself? Beating Chapa is viewed as a huge feat by Roshi, there's nothing supporting that he was actually wrong/lying and Chapa is super weak. That doesn't even match the point of the scene, which is that Goku is just that much stronger than he was when he fought Tao, so strong that someone stronger than him from that time is a joke now.

Where do the guides support that Karin & Piccolo speak literally?

In the manga, Piccolo says this:

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Context: Piccolo talking to Tambourine
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard.”

Which is pretty much identical to Karin's quote:

Chapter: 89, P14.1
Context: Goku accuses Karin of lying about the increase in power he should have received from the Super Holy Water.
Karin: “Nyahhahha! I didn’t trick you!! Your power has already become many times greater!”

Goku also says the exact same thing when referring to kaio-ken:

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

Daizenshuu 7 says this in Tambourine's biography: "As a Demon Clansman made to battle, his battle power is many times greater than Cymbal's"

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Plus that whole point I made about conventional weaponry. If a battle power of 100 is equivalent to the power of a battleship's main gun, there's no reason that a power around that (pre-training Goku) would still be threatened by pistol bullets and grenades, and no reason that a power far above that (post-training Goku) would be threatened by missiles and take damage from WW2-esque man-portable rocket launchers.

You are overanalyzing it there.

He could sense power from Gohan

No, he could sense "a powerful aura". That doesn't mean that he can sense his power accurately.

In the manga, Piccolo says this:

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Context: Piccolo talking to Tambourine
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard.”

Which is pretty much identical to Karin's quote:

Chapter: 89, P14.1
Context: Goku accuses Karin of lying about the increase in power he should have received from the Super Holy Water.
Karin: “Nyahhahha! I didn’t trick you!! Your power has already become many times greater!”

Goku also says the exact same thing when referring to kaio-ken:

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

And then Piccolo says this:

Chapter: 189, P5.2, P6.1
Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”
Goku: “Well then, I’ve gotten just a little bit stronger than even that.”

Which either means that the D7 battle powers are wrong, or Piccolo isn't talking literally.

I wasn't aware of the D7 statement about Cymbal though. I changed him to 40.

[xmysticgohanx]

where is the pl 100 = battleship main gun from?

[RandomGuy96]

You are overanalyzing it there.

No, I'm not. That statement in the Daizenshuu is one of the only ones that ever compares a battle power to a real world weapon. It gives us an idea of how powerful someone with that number really is, and it doesn't at all match RRA arc Goku, before or after his training with Karin. This is fairly important as the RRA arc is really the only time when the antagonists use conventional weaponry in any significant numbers. -

No, he could sense "a powerful aura". That doesn't mean that he can sense his power accurately.

No, he could sense "an aura of great power". This indicates that he can at least tell when someone is strong, and when someone is weak. It's similar to when Tenshinhan is awed by Daimao's ki after he reveals his true power.

And then Piccolo says this:

Chapter: 189, P5.2, P6.1
Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”
Goku: “Well then, I’ve gotten just a little bit stronger than even that.”

Unlike Karin and his father, junior here has no way of knowing that, as he wasn't around to sense his father's power, so he could plausibly be dismissed as speaking in hyperbole. Every other statement we have has no reason not to be referring to battle power, given what the Daizenshuu says, and what is later stated in the series after battle powers are introduced. This is every time someone uses the phrase "many times greater/stronger":

Karin: “Nyahhahha! I didn’t trick you!! Your power has already become many times greater!”

Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”

Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard.”

Tao Pai Pai: “To revive myself as a cyborg, I used up all the money I had saved up. But thanks to that, I’ve managed to obtain many times the power I had before.”

Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many [2-4] times greater…”

Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”

Of these, three (Nail's, Goku's, and Daimao's) are explicitly confirmed to be referring to battle power, and two are heavily implied to be referring to battle power, both because of these later statements and what D7's battleship comment implied about the progression of character strength: Tao can be damaged by bullets and grenades and his superior is still harmed by man portable rocket launchers, while Cyborg Tao is above "battleship's main gun" level. I don't think Tao could take shots from a high powered sniper rifle (just so it makes sense, I'm going to assume that the RRA soldier had a rifle that fired a really powerful round compared to most others, even though it didn't look like a rifle that would) or a rocket launcher without any damage, considering those things could hurt post-training Goku. Quite the contrary, I think those things can still seriously injure him, so him being far beyond a level that can dish out and survive attacks on par with 406mm naval artillery wouldn't make sense. Piccolo's is the only statement that's questionable, and conveniently the only one that's not made by someone with the required knowledge.

where is the pl 100 = battleship main gun from?

Daizenshuu 7's "Evolution of Goku's Power Level" section:

Oozaru: 100
His battle power becoming ten times its usual, he can even pulverize a 30 cm thick steel wall. His has the destructive power of a battleship’s main gun.

EDIT: I think, in my next battle power list, I'm also going to have heights listed. No particular reason, other than that I obsess over this kind of thing, already made a height list, and, well, they're both sets of somewhat arbitrary numbers gathered from studying tiny details and looking at supplemental materials. Also, I'm planning on formatting my list rather similarly to Zombie's.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, I'm not. That statement in the Daizenshuu is one of the only ones that ever compares a battle power to a real world weapon. It gives us an idea of how powerful someone with that number really is, and it doesn't at all match RRA arc Goku, before or after his training with Karin. This is fairly important as the RRA arc is really the only time when the antagonists use conventional weaponry in any significant numbers. -

You are only looking at the numbers though. D7 doesn't just talk about someone at 100, it talks about a freaking giant alien monkey. And it talks about its destructive power, not it's defense.

No, he could sense "an aura of great power". This indicates that he can at least tell when someone is strong, and when someone is weak. It's similar to when Tenshinhan is awed by Daimao's ki after he reveals his true power.

That's my point. He can tell when someone is strong or weak, but we don't know if he can measure their battle power accurately. Chappa proves that he can't, except if he didn't bother to sense his power.

Unlike Karin and his father, junior here has no way of knowing that, as he wasn't around to sense his father's power, so he could plausibly be dismissed as speaking in hyperbole.

No, Piccolo was born with all of Daimao's power & memories. He should know perfectly at which level he was when he was still Piccolo Daimao.

[RandomGuy96]

No, Piccolo was born with all of Daimao's power & memories. He should know perfectly at which level he was when he was still Piccolo Daimao.

If he's never felt that power, how exactly is he supposed to jot it down? He may have Daimao's memories, but not feeling the power means he should have no way of knowing the size of it, as Daimao doesn't use a scouter, so there's nothing for him to remember. And even if he DID know, Piccolo, unlike all of the other people who made statements like this, is insane and arrogant. Tao had no reason to not know how much power he was given by the cybernetics he paid for. Karin the expert ki reader has no reason to lie about how much his training benefited Goku.

That's my point. He can tell when someone is strong or weak, but we don't know if he can measure their battle power accurately. Chappa proves that he can't, except if he didn't bother to sense his power.

What you're saying is that he said Chapa was super strong (strong enough that Goku easily beating him really scares Roshi), when he was actually so weak that everyone of note was far stronger than him, even apparently Goku from the RRA arc after he beat Tao.

You are only looking at the numbers though. D7 doesn't just talk about someone at 100, it talks about a freaking giant alien monkey. And it talks about its destructive power, not it's defense.

It specifically points out that his destructive power is equivalent to a battleship's main gun right after giving his power level as 100. It does not mention anything about physical strength, unlike when it brings up Goku's bullet tanking feat. It is clearly referring to battle power, and it fits just fine with all of the other feats and statements we're given in the manga. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that the guidebook writers were going out of their way to confuse us.

As we've seen, destructive power and defensive power go hand in hand. By stating that a battle power of 100 is equivalent to the destructive power of a battleship's main gun, it is also saying that someone with that power can survive that amount of force. Unless you think that, say, Piccolo should have instantly been killed when punched by Goku at the Budokai.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If he's never felt that power, how exactly is he supposed to jot it down? He may have Daimao's memories, but not feeling the power means he should have no way of knowing the size of it, as Daimao doesn't use a scouter.

He was born with Piccolo Daimao's power. He doesn't need Daimao's memories, he can experience it by himself, because he has it.

What you're saying is that he said Chapa was super strong (strong enough that Goku easily beating him really scares Roshi), when he was actually so weak that everyone of note was far stronger than him, even apparently Goku from the RRA arc after he beat Tao.

No, what I'm saying is that he may be close to Kame-sennin, etc, but they are all still stronger than him.

But I think he may be stronger than I thought.

It specifically points out that his destructive power is equivalent to a battleship's main gun right after giving his power level as 100. It does not mention anything about physical strength, unlike when it brings up Goku's bullet tanking feat. It is clearly referring to battle power, and it fits just fine with all of the other feats and statements we're given in the manga.

It's talking about Oozaru, not the number 100.

As we've seen, destructive power and defensive power go hand in hand. By stating that a battle power of 100 is equivalent to the destructive power of a battleship's main gun, it is also saying that someone with that power can survive that amount of force. Unless you think that, say, Piccolo should have instantly been killed when punched by Goku at the Budokai.

Surviving doesn't mean tanking though. Goku survived all of the weapons that hit him in the RRA arc, and nothing says that he would have been killed by a battleship.

[Doctor.]

My Saiyan arc powerlevels. Just finished them after tweaking my Dragon Ball ones.

Spoiler:

Son Goku, weighted clothing - 334
Son Goku - 416
Son Goku, Kamehameha - 910

Piccolo - 322
Piccolo, weighted clothing - 408
Piccolo, Makankosappo - 1,330
Piccolo, Second Makankosappo - 1,280

Son Gohan - 1
Son Gohan, angry - 701
Son Gohan, furious - 1,307

Kuririn - 206
Tenshinhan - 250
Chaozu - 132
Yamucha - 177
Kame-sennin - 139

Popo - 265
God - 315

Raditz - 1,500
Raditz, after headbutt - 520

Enma Daioh - 2,300
Kaio-sama - 3,500

---------------------------------------

Son Gohan - 981
Son Gohan, furious - 1,700
Son Gohan, Masenko - 2,800
Son Gohan, injured - 560
Son Gohan, Oozaru - 5,600


Piccolo, suppressed - 1,220
Piccolo - 3,500

Kuririn, suppressed - 1,083
Kuririn - 1,770
Kuririn, Kakusan Kikou ha - 2,200
Kuririn, Genkidama - 10,000
Kuririn, injured - 1,250

Tenshinhan - 1,830
Tenshinhan, one arm - 1,620
Tenshinhan, Kikoho - 3,930

Chaozu - 610
Chaozu, Jibaku - 2,500

Yamucha - 1,480

Yajirobe - 970

Saibamen - 1,200

Nappa - 5,000
Nappa, powered up - 7,500

Vegeta - 16,500
Vegeta, powered up - 18,000
Vegeta, Gallick Gun - 24,500
Vegeta, post Kamehameha - 14,000
Vegeta, post Power Ball - 7,000
Vegeta, Oozaru - 70,000
Vegeta, post Genkidama - 2,000
Vegeta, end of the fight - 700

Son Goku, suppressed - 5,000
Son Goku - 8,000
Son Goku, Kaioken x2 - 16,000
Son Goku, Kaioken x3 - 24,000
Son Goku, Kaioken x4 - 32,000
Son Goku, post Kamehameha - 5,000
Son Goku, injured - 500

So, those are my views on the characters power in the Saiyan arc. Even though most lists end up very similar, any thoughts?

[RandomGuy96]

He was born with Piccolo Daimao's power. He doesn't need Daimao's memories, he can experience it by himself, because he has it.

When is it stated that newborn Piccolo Junior >= young Piccolo Daimao?

No, what I'm saying is that he may be close to Kame-sennin, etc, but they are all still stronger than him.

But I think he may be stronger than I thought.

I think that as well. HOWEVER, I also think that he should be a good bit stronger than RRA Goku for Roshi and Yamcha to be so fearful of him. I think he should rival Krillin and Yamcha, and be weaker than Roshi, but still strong enough that defeating him while still holding back is ridiculously impressive.

It's talking about Oozaru, not the number 100.

Proof? It says, right after a sentence where the main subject was his battle power of 100, "his has the destructive power of a battleship's main gun". Basic sentence structure says the entry is referring to the battle power, not physical strength. Physical strength is not mentioned here at all, unlike in the blurb for the very first battle power given... which is also the battle power right above this one.

Surviving doesn't mean tanking though. Goku survived all of the weapons that hit him in the RRA arc, and nothing says that he would have been killed by a battleship.

Indeed. That's what I mean; I think a shot from a battleship's main gun would inflict decent damage on someone around 100, the equivalent of a Kamehameha of that battle power fired at someone, and they wouldn't tank it. However, merely being able to survive it would be waaaaay out of RRA Goku's league.

He survived those weapons, but as you noted, he didn't tank them. If what looks like a Panzerschreck can inflict minor damage and pain on Goku with one hit, a high powered sniper rifle can hurt him and move his head (I'd say it was about to equivalent to a clean one of Tao's punches to the face), someone in Goku's general league can be critically injured by a concussion grenade to the face (it kinda looks like a MK3A2 hand grenade), and Goku is still cautious of missiles and machine guns, then there's absolutely no way Goku should be able to survive a 406mm naval artillery shell. At all. The difference between these two weapons is HUGE. Receiving any harm from the former should mark as you fodder for the latter, just as Vegeta getting hurt by a punch from Semi-Cell demonstrates that he couldn't survive, say, a SBC from that same Cell. Because he can't be that high if an attack like that could phase him.

Finally, Blue was going to kill RRA arc Goku and Roshi with a time bomb about the size of a man's head. They were only saved by Lunch's intervention.

EDIT: So, apparently, a single shotgun blast to the face at pointblank range would be life threatening to Goku regardless of whether or not he was paralyzed... take that as you will, but this does not sound like someone who can take out and dish out attacks on par with a battleship's main cannon, which you're saying is the case due to how high you place 21st Budokai-RRA characters relative to everyone else. Heck, Tao "I got heavily injured by a concussion grenade" Paipai on your list is far beyond the level that throws around and survives battleship-level firepower.

Chapter: Chapter 78, P.5.5
Context: Blue prepares to fire a shotgun at Goku's face at pointblank range
Bulma: “Even Goku’ll die from a shot at such a short range!!”