Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U.S.?

[ImmaDeker]

Because TV Tropes is baby's first literary analysis posited as common conversation and discourse, and Abridged as a genre is baby's first parody in the sense of often being as overly simplistic and pandering as possible. So using a TV Tropes phrase in its presentation exclusive to that site (i.e. the needless capitalization) isn't out of place in a conversation discussing the writing quality of an Abridged product.

[ABED]

The argument I'm making is that his opinion (not about where our show fits on the spectrum of comedy, merely the who idea of Affectionate Parodies and the way he's put forth his opinion on them) is disputed by many, many people, plenty of which have more experience and knowledge in and of several creative fields than he does.

I know I said I'd bow out, but I do have something new to ask. Are saying that simply because someone is an expert or there are a lot of them, I am obligated to agree with them?

I'm willing to admit parodies can be done in good will, as long as they don't undercut the virtues of the series they are claiming to show affection to.

the flanderizations seem to harm the characters more than uplift them

This put into words my thoughts better than I could have.

[KaiserNeko]

Maybe, but from what I see: he might be the only one that is willing to admit he doesnt like it nor finds it funny but more distasteful among anyone else who's seen it that thinks higher than the series than what the Abridged version does to it when people percieve it. There isnt anything that really appeals about it, if it isnt consistent with what its making fun of - and the flanderizations seem to harm the characters more than uplift them - but that again is the fanbase's fault.

O... kay, doesn't really relate my point at all, I think. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

I know I said I'd bow out, but I do have something new to ask. Are saying that simply because someone is an expert or there are a lot of them, I am obligated to agree with them?

I'm willing to admit parodies can be done in good will, as long as they don't undercut the virtues of the series they are claiming to show affection to.

I think when you start stating your opinion as a fact, especially when it comes to such a subjective field such as art, you're already on shaky ground. Add to that, if said opinion has an overwhelming amount of evidence against it from successful people in their respective creative fields, as well as plenty of people who have effectively enjoyed work that you prostrate is factually faulty, then there's a certain amount of umbrage to be taken, I feel.

If, however, you believe affectionate parodies (happy, Deker? ;3) can exist successfully and are legitimate forms of parody, then I don't have much of an argument with you. If this is about whether or not DBZA fits into that category, I wholeheartedly believe it does and there's plenty of other people who do, but I'm personally not going to argue that one with you.

[Babbu]

Ah, this is one of those "everything wrong with internet message boards" type of threads

[KaiserNeko]

Because TV Tropes is baby's first literary analysis posited as common conversation and discourse, and Abridged as a genre is baby's first parody in the sense of often being as overly simplistic and pandering as possible. So using a TV Tropes phrase in its presentation exclusive to that site (i.e. the needless capitalization) isn't out of place in a conversation discussing the writing quality of an Abridged product.

Well, that's remarkably harsh, if not colored in shades of truth. As someone who actually browses TV Tropes form time to time, I do have a habit of pulling from their vernacular, but "affectionate parody" isn't one of them. I'd been using the phrase long before I even knew of TV Tropes; I'm pretty sure the phrase has been around for a long time.

[ABED]

If this is about whether or not DBZA fits into that category, I wholeheartedly believe it does and there's plenty of other people who do, but I'm personally not going to argue that one with you.

Fair enough.

if said opinion has an overwhelming amount of evidence against it from successful people in their respective creative fields, as well as plenty of people who have effectively enjoyed work that you prostrate is factually faulty, then there's a certain amount of umbrage to be taken, I feel.

That's where we disagree, even an expert's opinion isn't neccessarily evidence. I don't automatically dismiss it, but the fact that someone with credentials makes a claim, even if there are a lot of them, doesn't make it a fact. There are plenty of Keynesian economists out there with PhD's, but I don't agree with them. I don't put my head in the sand either. I've read their POV's but after reading others and based on my knowledge, I have to come to an independent conclusion. There are always going to be smart people who disagree, especially on something, as you said, as subjective as art, so which experts should I agree with?

[ImmaDeker]

If, however, you believe affectionate parodies (happy, Deker? ;3)

Never.

But appreciated, yes!

As a post-script, I don't quite share the criticism of your guys' acting others have made and think it's probably the strongest suit of your group (without much caring for the rest of what you do, though, actually, the editing tends to be pretty solid). But I'm going to go out on a limb and make one point worth considering: "professionals have noticed us" is, by no stretch of the imagination, an actual argument toward your quality. I could tell horror stories of people I've worked with in various media productions intended for actual pitching and mass consumption who very clearly did not belong there, not to mention the fact that the subjectivity inherent in choosing your resources for a project (whether acquiring writers, actors, camera crew, etc.) is often in the eye of the beholder. It's hard, for example, to truly praise where you've gotten in life when it became clear that the person you were working under, who you'd assume was giving you the break you thought you were finally getting, was incredibly out of touch with reality (and that's the royal you, because this was my experience!). How can both of us be acknowledged by professionals, but only one of us sees it as a reason to point out how talented we are?

Not to mention, statistics dictate that you probably have disliked something popular. Bayformers? Twilight? Power Rangers? Insert other thing? Regardless of what it is, you HAVE to have, at some point in your life, have encountered something professionally produced by professionals and the people they had noticed that you could probably pick apart as being the result of a lack of talent.

What makes them different from you?

Food for thought, is all. You seem like an alright guy, but I think your justification for why you're not as bad as some might say doesn't hold a lot of water and I bet if we caught you at different circumstance you'd be less inclined to agree that professional work means talent must be inherent...but if it happens to you, suddenly it is?

Noting your professional capacity as a defense, rather than, say, a place of wisdom and just another part of learning, strikes me as poor argument that's indicative of amateurish outlooks on creativity than a professional one. This isn't to bash you at all, but rather to say "You shoot yourself in the foot in this specific way, that way being misapplying the implications of your credentials."

And no, it the phrase doesn't come from TV Tropes. The capitalized version, turned into a proper noun meant to represent what TV Tropes thinks a trope or archetype is, however, is from TV Tropes. And thus is presented in the context of its origin, which is to say TV Tropes and its meaning vis a vis its analytical philosophies. Which, as noted, are lackluster at their very best.

[KaiserNeko]

If this is about whether or not DBZA fits into that category, I wholeheartedly believe it does and there's plenty of other people who do, but I'm personally not going to argue that one with you.

Fair enough.

if said opinion has an overwhelming amount of evidence against it from successful people in their respective creative fields, as well as plenty of people who have effectively enjoyed work that you prostrate is factually faulty, then there's a certain amount of umbrage to be taken, I feel.

That's where we disagree, even an expert's opinion isn't neccessarily evidence. I don't automatically dismiss it, but the fact that someone with credentials makes a claim, even if there are a lot of them, doesn't make it a fact. There are plenty of Keynesian economists out there with PhD's, but I don't agree with them. I don't put my head in the sand either. I've read their POV's but after reading others and based on my knowledge, I have to come to an independent conclusion. There are always going to be smart people who disagree, especially on something, as you said, as subjective as art, so which experts should I agree with?

Hey man, you told me I was wrong. Objectively. So I responded in kind.

If you had said, "I'm not a fan of affectionate parodies; I feel like they undercut the point of a parody and aren't funny to me." then I wouldn't of even said a thing. You're the one who told me, quite frankly, that I was wrong. Stating your own personal opinion as fact. You start marking opinions facts, and suddenly you have to stack the validity of your opinion up against everyone else's.

[ABED]

You start marking opinions facts, and suddenly you have to stack the validity of your opinion up against everyone else's.

Not really, because the barometer of fact isn't what everyone else thinks, it's what is. It really seems to bug you that I told you that you were wrong. If you really think it's all opinion, then shouldn't you just chalk it up to "his opinion was wrong"? You seem to think it's a personal insult. That wasn't my intention.

[KaiserNeko]

STUFF

I will agree wholeheartedly that using our professional work as a proof of our ability was a poor idea for the reasons you outlined.

It's incredibly difficult in this day and age to properly convey competence in the artistic field because of how subjective it can be, so I tried to default to the progress we've been making on a professional level as a way to indicate that our hard work as at least achieved the recognition and employment from those who have higher qualifications than ours. But ultimately, that doesn't add up to much when there are many, many professional productions with piss poor writing, acting, etc. and I should have been a lot less bullheaded in my attempts to support myself and my team.

Providing proof that we are solid actors is nearly impossible, on that front, considering most of essentially chronicle our improvement. You'd have to rely on our later material, of which there IS plenty, but even then it's up to each individual person to decide whether or not we're genuinely decent actors. In DBZA, it's the hardest to gauge, because I won't lie: We often don't get the range necessary to show off our range. We stick to a certain style. Although, Hellsing Ultimate Abridged is actually a much better example; after Episode 1, that is.

Thanks for being so reasonable in your criticism of my approach. I really do love what we do and it means the world to me that I've watched the people around me improve, day after day. I'm a bit defensive of them, in that regard.

You start marking opinions facts, and suddenly you have to stack the validity of your opinion up against everyone else's.

Not really, because the barometer of fact isn't what everyone else thinks, it's what is. It really seems to bug you that I told you that you were wrong. If you really think it's all opinion, then shouldn't you just chalk it up to "his opinion was wrong"? You seem to think it's a personal insult. That wasn't my intention.

No, because an opinion is an opinion; a fact is a fact. You stated it as a fact. You even told me I was wrong.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Maybe, but from what I see: he might be the only one that is willing to admit he doesnt like it nor finds it funny but more distasteful among anyone else who's seen it that thinks higher than the series than what the Abridged version does to it when people percieve it. There isnt anything that really appeals about it, if it isnt consistent with what its making fun of - and the flanderizations seem to harm the characters more than uplift them - but that again is the fanbase's fault.

O... kay, doesn't really relate my point at all, I think. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

You were suggesting that he wasnt credible enough to critique it on its merit for comedy because he isnt a professional right? But, why would someone need to have a foot in the field to know what does or doent make them laugh? Or is it that the characterizations that the Abridged series has done is whats flying over our heads leading into our lack of enthusiasm for it? correct me.

[ABED]

No, because an opinion is an opinion; a fact is a fact. You stated it as a fact. THAT'S THE ISSUE I TOOK.

I still don't understand why there's any issue to take. At worst, I'm wrong.

[TheWhiz]

Here's a DBZ voice comparison I found. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL2hnbMtzV4

I actually found people bitching about not having Masako X in the comparison video. I explained to him that TFS isn't an official dubbing group & that it was a non-profit parody. Their response was, Don't care. They should be in the comparison. And they should be getting payed for their work. That was one of the responses I got. I like TFS as much as the next guy, but it irritates me when you find fans like these.

[KaiserNeko]

Maybe, but from what I see: he might be the only one that is willing to admit he doesnt like it nor finds it funny but more distasteful among anyone else who's seen it that thinks higher than the series than what the Abridged version does to it when people percieve it. There isnt anything that really appeals about it, if it isnt consistent with what its making fun of - and the flanderizations seem to harm the characters more than uplift them - but that again is the fanbase's fault.

O... kay, doesn't really relate my point at all, I think. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

You were suggesting that he wasnt credible enough to critique it on its merit for comedy because he isnt a professional right? But, why would someone need to have a foot in the field to know what does or doent make them laugh? Or is it that the characterizations that the Abridged series has done is whats flying over our heads leading into our lack of enthusiasm for it? correct me.

Let me try and rebuild the conversation in the least strawman way I can.

Kaiser: DragonBall Z Abridged falls under the umbrella of an affectionate parody.

ABED: Affectionate parody isn't a legitimate style of parody. It undercuts the point.

Kaiser: Well, there are plenty of people that really enjoy that type of parody and plenty of professional creators make successful content along those lines all the time.

ABED: I do not understand how. *Makes his own case why he thinks it doesn't work.*

Kaiser: Here's what I think. *Makes his own case in retort of why it can work.*

ABED: You're wrong. I know that it's often uncouth to tell someone that they're wrong, but you're wrong.

And that's where this argument essentially started. He said I was wrong on a matter that isn't only subjective, but effectively calls my opinion (and the opinions of pleeeenty more) wrong, which if this were a matter of me saying something along the lines of, "2+3=23!" then sure. He can say that that "opinion" is wrong. But the huge issue here is that he's objectively stating that I am wrong when, well... he has no evidence besides his own opinion. I take issue with that.

No, because an opinion is an opinion; a fact is a fact. You stated it as a fact. THAT'S THE ISSUE I TOOK.

I still don't understand why there's any issue to take. At worst, I'm wrong.

And I, playing along with your rules, called you wrong. So are we both right? Are we both wrong? Which of us is right? Ultimately, if we're trying to prove a fact, you need evidence. If our opinions are apparently facts, then I effectively have more evidence than you suggesting that affectionate parodies are legitimate and effective.

[Doctor.]

Here's a DBZ voice comparison I found. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL2hnbMtzV4

I actually found people bitching about not having Masako X in the comparison video. I explained to him that TFS isn't an official dubbing group & that it was a non-profit parody. Their response was, Don't care. They should be in the comparison. And they should be getting payed for their work. That was one of the responses I got. I like TFS as much as the next guy, but it irritates me when you find fans like these.

This is pretty much the only issue I have with TFS. It's nothing to do with them, and the team, but the fans. It gets on my nerves when they start spouting nonsense like "TFS does the scenes better". That's just disrespectful not only to Toei Animation, both the japanese and english dubs, but also to Toriyama himself.

[KaiserNeko]

Here's a DBZ voice comparison I found. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL2hnbMtzV4

I actually found people bitching about not having Masako X in the comparison video. I explained to him that TFS isn't an official dubbing group & that it was a non-profit parody. Their response was, Don't care. They should be in the comparison. And they should be getting payed for their work. That was one of the responses I got. I like TFS as much as the next guy, but it irritates me when you find fans like these.

This is pretty much the only issue I have with TFS. It's nothing to do with them, and the team, but the fans. It gets on my nerves when they start spouting nonsense like "TFS does the scenes better". That's just disrespectful not only to Toei Animation, both the japanese and english dubs, but also to Toriyama himself.

Trust me, I hate that crap myself. I mean, trust me, when we do the serious scenes, I try to make sure everyone sells it as much as they can. But I'd never, ever try and put our performances in the same league of the pros; especially after the 10+ years of experience the dub actors have had with the series, and especially not the Japanese cast.

[TheWhiz]

Here's a DBZ voice comparison I found. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL2hnbMtzV4

I actually found people bitching about not having Masako X in the comparison video. I explained to him that TFS isn't an official dubbing group & that it was a non-profit parody. Their response was, Don't care. They should be in the comparison. And they should be getting payed for their work. That was one of the responses I got. I like TFS as much as the next guy, but it irritates me when you find fans like these.

This is pretty much the only issue I have with TFS. It's nothing to do with them, and the team, but the fans. It gets on my nerves when they start spouting nonsense like "TFS does the scenes better". That's just disrespectful not only to Toei Animation, both the japanese and english dubs, but also to Toriyama himself.

Yeah, pretty much this. This isn't the fault of Kaiser or the rest of TFS. The parody has warped their minds to the point that they even forget it's a parody.

[ABED]

And that's where this argument essentially started. He said I was wrong on a matter that isn't only subjective, but effectively calls my opinion (and the opinions of pleeeenty more) wrong, which if this were a matter of me saying something along the lines of, "2+3=23!" then sure. He can say that that "opinion" is wrong. But the huge issue here is that he's objectively stating that I am wrong when, well... he has no evidence besides his own opinion. I take issue with that.

Why do you keep bringing numbers up? Does the number of people who agree make something more true? Isn't it possible that a lot of people can agree on something and end up being incorrect? Forget about this issue, just think in general.

ABED: Affectionate parody isn't a legitimate style of parody. It undercuts the point.

No, I said, it undercuts the target. If it's undercutting a virtue, then it's wrong.

I still don't understand why you seem to have a huge problem. If I say "You're wrong, 2+3=23" is there anything for you to take issue with?

Trust me, I hate that crap myself. I mean, trust me, when we do the serious scenes, I try to make sure everyone sells it as much as they can. But I'd never, ever try and put our performances in the same league of the pros; especially after the 10+ years of experience the dub actors have had with the series, and especially not the Japanese cast.

I appreciate this as it's something I've always had issue with.

[Doctor.]

Here's a DBZ voice comparison I found. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL2hnbMtzV4

I actually found people bitching about not having Masako X in the comparison video. I explained to him that TFS isn't an official dubbing group & that it was a non-profit parody. Their response was, Don't care. They should be in the comparison. And they should be getting payed for their work. That was one of the responses I got. I like TFS as much as the next guy, but it irritates me when you find fans like these.

This is pretty much the only issue I have with TFS. It's nothing to do with them, and the team, but the fans. It gets on my nerves when they start spouting nonsense like "TFS does the scenes better". That's just disrespectful not only to Toei Animation, both the japanese and english dubs, but also to Toriyama himself.

Trust me, I hate that crap myself. I mean, trust me, when we do the serious scenes, I try to make sure everyone sells it as much as they can. But I'd never, ever try and put our performances in the same league of the pros; especially after the 10+ years of experience the dub actors have had with the series, and especially not the Japanese cast.

Don't worry, I do trust you. I am very certain that the TFS cast does their best not to offend any of the people I mentioned. But I know you guys don't have control over your fans. And, believe me, I'm not trying to blame the fans' childish behavior on the Abridged team. I'm just saying that it gets annoying after a while. Glad to see we're on the same page.

[KaiserNeko]

And that's where this argument essentially started. He said I was wrong on a matter that isn't only subjective, but effectively calls my opinion (and the opinions of pleeeenty more) wrong, which if this were a matter of me saying something along the lines of, "2+3=23!" then sure. He can say that that "opinion" is wrong. But the huge issue here is that he's objectively stating that I am wrong when, well... he has no evidence besides his own opinion. I take issue with that.

Why do you keep bringing numbers up? Does the number of people who agree make something more true? Isn't it possible that a lot of people can agree on something and end up being incorrect? Forget about this issue, just think in general.

ABED: Affectionate parody isn't a legitimate style of parody. It undercuts the point.

No, I said, it undercuts the target. If it's undercutting a virtue, then it's wrong.

I still don't understand why you seem to have a huge problem. If I say "You're wrong, 2+3=23" is there anything for you to take issue with?

I'm pulling out of this. Sorry, I know this might sound rude, but I can't make this much simpler for you and I'm getting a bit frustrated trying. My point was Subjective Opinions=/=Facts.