Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U.S.?

[ABED]

It's not a matter of simplicity, I understand your argument, I just don't get why you think the number of people who agree on some point matters or is relevant, but if you don't care to continue b/c you are annoyed (for lack of a better word) then so be it.

[KaiserNeko]

It's not a matter of simplicity, I understand your argument, I just don't get why you think the number of people who agree on some point matters or is relevant.

As I said:

Facts need evidence. You had none besides your own opinion. I had numbers, professional opinions, and a list of successful productions.

Had you have not made this a matter of facts, I wouldn't have said a damn thing.

[TheWhiz]

Here's a DBZ voice comparison I found. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL2hnbMtzV4

I actually found people bitching about not having Masako X in the comparison video. I explained to him that TFS isn't an official dubbing group & that it was a non-profit parody. Their response was, Don't care. They should be in the comparison. And they should be getting payed for their work. That was one of the responses I got. I like TFS as much as the next guy, but it irritates me when you find fans like these.

This is pretty much the only issue I have with TFS. It's nothing to do with them, and the team, but the fans. It gets on my nerves when they start spouting nonsense like "TFS does the scenes better". That's just disrespectful not only to Toei Animation, both the japanese and english dubs, but also to Toriyama himself.

Trust me, I hate that crap myself. I mean, trust me, when we do the serious scenes, I try to make sure everyone sells it as much as they can. But I'd never, ever try and put our performances in the same league of the pros; especially after the 10+ years of experience the dub actors have had with the series, and especially not the Japanese cast.

It's alright man. I think it's just the fact that you've become so big in recent years and it's made a big impact on lots of DBZ fans. Honestly, If I was in your shoes, I'd find what they were doing pretty annoying as well.

[ABED]

It's not a matter of simplicity, I understand your argument, I just don't get why you think the number of people who agree on some point matters or is relevant.

As I said:

Facts need evidence. You had none besides your own opinion. I had numbers, professional opinions, and a list of successful productions.

Had you have not made this a matter of facts, I wouldn't have said a damn thing.

That's not facts. Numbers just tell you the number of people who watch your show and like it. It doesn't tell you if you're right. Lots of people can agree and still be wrong. You didn't give me any facts, you said people agree with you and some of them have degrees and expertise. To which I say, I know people who are artists and philosophers and they don't agree with you. This isn't an argument over numbers it's a philosophical discussion. If you think what they say makes sense, good, but if the underlying ideas are wrong, then the conclusions they reach will be faulty. I don't care how many PhD's one has if they think humor is an unconditional virtue.

However, I do agree that we should quit, especially if best both of us can come up with is "I know some experts and plenty of people who disagree with you."

[KaiserNeko]

It's not a matter of simplicity, I understand your argument, I just don't get why you think the number of people who agree on some point matters or is relevant.

As I said:

Facts need evidence. You had none besides your own opinion. I had numbers, professional opinions, and a list of successful productions.

Had you have not made this a matter of facts, I wouldn't have said a damn thing.

That's not facts. Numbers just tell you the number of people who watch your show and like it. It doesn't tell you if you're right. Lots of people can agree and still be wrong. This isn't an argument over numbers it's a philosophical discussion. If you think what they say makes sense, good, but if the underlying ideas are wrong, then the conclusions they reach will be faulty. I don't care how many PhD's one has if they think humor is an unconditional virtue.

Again, I'm stepping out of this conversation. I just don't think I have anything else to add.

[Attitudefan]

You know, it really boils down to different strokes for different folks. For example, I've seen a few episodes of Log Horizon but I dislike it. Not my thing. I've watched all of Sword Art and hated it, yet my friends love both series. They can't convince me to like it. The same goes for them, they hate or dislike, or don't care to bother checking out what DragonBall really is about. They think it's just screaming for 10 episodes straight.

Fine. Opinions on entertainment are subjective. There is no right. And all the power to you, as an individual, to like or dislike whatever it may be, especially when it pertains to entertainment. As long as effort and care is put in to it, whether I, you, or anybody else loves it or loathes it, the only thing that matters is that it entertains people. That is what entertainment is about. As long as there is effort. As long as there are fans.

Don't take the hate personally. It is what it is.


(Thank you Bruce Blitz for your view on the entertainment industry. I owe ya one).

[Analytical Delusion]

Apologies to jump in, mostly a lurker here, but just wanted to comment on this thread...

I'm getting really annoyed with hearing people on youtube refer to the abridged series as "dub" when its just a parody of some sort of inside humour using the franchise and nothing more. There are people going as far as saying its better than Kai, speaking of it as a legit comparison as a "dub" in their opinion comparison characterizations. Smh. So yes I say they have influenced the fandom but they didnt ruin the series for the west, the fandumb is just not recieving the concept.

I can't fathom why people like it. It's so crude.

I really get annoyed when I read some of the comments saying that TFS did a scene better than the original source material. I mean, that's just disrespecting Toriyama and Toei Animation. I still love it, nothing against it, but it's the fans that piss me off sometimes.

Agree 100% with the bolded. I mean no disrespect to the creators of Abridged or its fans, but the fact that a nontrivial number of fans prefer it to the source material, and consider it a superior production, really bugs me (and sickens me, a bit).

I've only watched a few episodes (~10, just watched episodes 42 and 43 prior to opening this thread), and while I understand that there is an audience for this type of work, it does rub me the wrong way when watching. Maybe I'm not getting a representative sample and need to watch more, but my personal opinion (which could very well be incorrect or ill-informed) is that Abridged overwhelmingly mocks the franchise to such an extent that it casts Dragon Ball in a negative light. Some have mentioned in this thread that the frequency of serious scenes and scenes poking fun at the fanbase as opposed to the series itself increases as one progresses, but frankly, I don't see it to an appreciable degree.

Again, I'm sure the cast and crew is comprised of fans of the series who have nothing but positive intentions. I'm trying not to take the fandom *too* seriously, but it's very frustrating to see Abridged held in higher regard to the source material (in terms of preference and perception of quality), and to hear forced references when discussing the franchise so often.

Ugh.

EDIT: Apologies if this came off the wrong way Abridge's creators and fans, I didn't intend to offend. Just my take.

[Attitudefan]

I agree too, that I'm not a big fan of it. I lean on the side of "Abridged casts a negative light on the original series". It really does, and there is proof. The fans; Analytical Delusion just pointed out. I attended Anime Revolution, and most of the Dragonball fans were quoting, referencing, and canonizing the Abridged series. Very strange. I can understand why it's popular, since I have enjoyed a few episodes and kept up to date with it. It's just that, despite the intentions of the original creators, the Abridged series is more mocking than it is parodying, less of a homage or a throwback. It just blatantly says how stupid things are in the Dragonball universe. Character motivation for why they do the things they do have been deconstructed in the Abridged, say why not just do everything with a wish, or why not take the Androids on. The Abridged series gives light to that through the characters and jokes about their reasoning.

Here, I'll post a quote from a friend's Facebook which she wrote:

“Come on, it’s just humor.”
But humor is actually one of the powerful ways a culture passes on its values. If one is already inclined toward abuse, sexism, racism, etc. because of their earlier training or experience, they can find validation in such performances and distance themselves even further from empathy for their partners.

"Come on. It's just humor."

While it is not as extreme or as socially important compared to what the quote was anatomizing about how jokes play in our society, it still instils the same values towards the franchise. "Come on. It's just humour, right?"

By no means am I saying it is morally and socially wrong. But I think it shows how the series can be perceived by others through the Abridged series. We get comments like "Why watch Dragonball when there is the Abridged series?" or "At least it makes more sense than the original".

I will still stand by to the fact that how can one enjoy a parody when they haven't seen/understood the source it comes from.

[KaiserNeko]

You know, one of the biggest ups that we give the series is that we always try and play up the bigger parts with as much gravity and make it as entertaining as we can. Sometimes, we drop the playful nitpicking and go for grandeur. Those big moments, the ones we always remember? Like Cell's first entrance, or when Piccolo and Kami fuse, Goku's KameHameHa against Freeza and against Vegeta, or the scene where Vegeta takes on Android 19. We try and play them up and remind the fans that those moments were awesome.

But you gotta understand, we're still a comedy and, unfortunately, if we're not poking fun at those flaws, we're not so much a parody as we are some kind of... funnier fandub with less talented actors.

[Zephyr]

I will still stand by to the fact that how can one enjoy a parody when they haven't seen/understood the source it comes from.

Because there are still jokes and pieces of humor that do not require you to be a fan to enjoy. You will obviously get more out of it if you're a fan, but that's by no means a prerequisite for enjoying it.

[RandomGuy96]

say why not just do everything with a wish, or why not take the Androids on. The Abridged series gives light to that through the characters and jokes about their reasoning.

But the series itself already called out the characters for things like this years before the abridged series ever existed. For example, Bulma's dialogue in the abridged series is almost exactly what she said about the androids in the non-abridged series.

Toriyama isn't exactly a brilliant writer who crafts deep stories, but he knows when something's dumb and/or lazy about his work, and he'll usually point it out himself, either in interviews or through the characters. A few times, he'll even break the fourth wall within his own comic to say "this is stupid/lazy".

will still stand by to the fact that how can one enjoy a parody when they haven't seen/understood the source it comes from.

It's possible. For example, "Airplane!" was a very specific parody of a movie called "Zero Hour". Today, everyone knows about the former, while few have even heard about the latter. I've certainly never seen that film, but that didn't stop me from laughing at "Airplane!".'

[Attitudefan]

You know, one of the biggest ups that we give the series is that we always try and play up the bigger parts with as much levity and make it as entertaining as we can. Sometimes, we drop the playful nitpicking and go for grandeur. Those big moments, the ones we always remember? Like Cell's first entrance, or when Piccolo and Kami fuse, Goku's KameHameHa against Freeza and against Vegeta, or the scene where Vegeta takes on Android 19. We try and play them up and remind the fans that those moments were awesome.

But you gotta understand, we're still a comedy and, unfortunately, if we're not poking fun at those flaws, we're not so much a parody as we are some kind of... funnier fandub with less talented actors.

Oh for sure. The Namek arc stuff was great for the most part. I really like the Ginyu arc stuff you guys did. It was like a perfect mix of everything! Humour, but wasn't insulting. It was a throwback to things you guys love and so do I. Some stuff about Vegeta's penis when transforming into an Oozaru for example fell flat for me. The end of the Saiyan arc was seriously a lower point in the series for me. I find myself thinking the same way for most of the Cyborg arc material as well. It just feels like it is very harsh on the series and the way the characters are and how they interact with each other. I don't find myself laughing, at all.

However, I do find myself going back to the Namek arc often. There are some golden jewels there. A lot of the humour feels just right. I don't like the material so much during the fight with Freeza when Goku shows up. It starts to feel a little degrading.

But the series itself already called out the characters for things like this years before the abridged series ever existed. For example, Bulma's dialogue in the abridged series is almost exactly what she said about the androids in the non-abridged series.

Toriyama isn't exactly a brilliant genius who crafts deep stories, but he knows when something's dumb about his work, and he'll usually point it out himself, either in interviews or through the characters.

Oh that is true, but the Abridged series turns that up to 11. I mean, it's completely understandable for Bulma to say that in context of the story, both Abridged and the original. But sometimes, the Abridged series goes a little too far, and the humour is lost.

Because there are still jokes and pieces of humor that do not require you to be a fan to enjoy. You will obviously get more out of it if you're a fan, but that's by no means a prerequisite for enjoying it.

See my previous post on entertainment. I agree with you. I just don't understand how that works. It's just more of a personal jab by me than an objective view on the Abridged series and the art of parodies as a whole.

[B]

I don't watch the "show" regularly, but this thread got me to watch the last three episodes and the Coola movies. They were pretty funny; if not a little too self-aware(I prefer my comedy where it's not that obvious people are telling jokes). Anytime Coola uses "I'ma" instead of "I'm going to" made me laugh.

You can't control how fans react to something, however, so I don't think placing blame on the people who made it because some people on YouTube and/or Reddit and/or some other DBZ site are idiots is fair at all.

[KaiserNeko]

Oh that is true, but the Abridged series turns that up to 11. I mean, it's completely understandable for Bulma to say that in context of the story, both Abridged and the original. But sometimes, the Abridged series goes a little too far, and the humour is lost.

I'm just curious, could you possibly give me any example at all about how we're THAT MUCH MEANER to the series nowadays?

[Attitudefan]

Oh that is true, but the Abridged series turns that up to 11. I mean, it's completely understandable for Bulma to say that in context of the story, both Abridged and the original. But sometimes, the Abridged series goes a little too far, and the humour is lost.

I'm just curious, could you possibly give me any example at all about how we're THAT MUCH MEANER to the series nowadays?

Hmmm, it's not so much about now it is more that way, since it has been intermittent since the start. I think it's how you treat the characters, while pushing the plot forward. While it was funny at first, such as the Krillin stuff, or the Yamcha jokes, it just progressively got disinteresting and outright mean. Some of the Bulma-Trunks stuff seemed unnecessary. Like, was it necessary to say "... solicited my son for sex," outright? No.

Some of the Popo jokes, such as where he is high for no reason at all. Just... why?


Goku's stupidity goes from being funny to annoying.

[KaiserNeko]

Hmmm, it's not so much about now it is more that way, since it has been intermittent since the start. I think it's how you treat the characters, while pushing the plot forward. While it was funny at first, such as the Krillin stuff, or the Yamcha jokes, it just progressively got disinteresting and outright mean. Some of the Bulma-Trunks stuff seemed unnecessary. Like, was it necessary to say "... solicited my son for sex," outright? No.

Some of the Popo jokes, such as where he is high for no reason at all. Just... why?


Goku's stupidity goes from being funny to annoying.

Krillin has increasingly been working his way up the ladder. We're trying to humanize him more, what with his crush on 18 developing. ... I'll mostly agree with the Yamcha stuff, but at the same time, he's our buttmonkey. As far at the Bulma-Trunks stuff goes, that waaas a little over the top, but I hardly believe that was THAT over the top.

Almost everyone we know loved the Popo/LSD stuff. Also, we needed a way to work out why he was acting the way he was during that scene, and it was in line with his utterly crazy nature.

Finally... yeah, Goku's stupidity is getting a little old, but we're slowly trying to work on that as well. But honest to God? He's been one of my favorite characters to write for the last several episodes and movies.

[RandomGuy96]

If you're faulting TFS for treating Yamcha like shit and mocking him, shouldn't you also be mad at Toriyama? Because honestly, he probably treats Yamcha worse than TFS does.

[KaiserNeko]

If you're faulting TFS for treating Yamcha like shit and mocking him, shouldn't you also be mad at Toriyama? Because honestly, he probably treats Yamcha worse than TFS does.

Eh heh, uh... we literally made a joke about Yamcha hanging himself in an alternate future. I mean, sure, he's had some chances to snap back at some of the characters and we do plan on throwing him some bones, but we've basically singled him out as kiiinda the most pathetic guy in the series and have ripped him utterly apart. As one of the creators, even I feel like we've gone too far from time to time and have been actively CUTTING OUT Yamcha jokes these last few episodes.

[RandomGuy96]

If you're faulting TFS for treating Yamcha like shit and mocking him, shouldn't you also be mad at Toriyama? Because honestly, he probably treats Yamcha worse than TFS does.

We've basically singled him out as kiiinda the most pathetic guy in the series and have ripped him utterly apart.

You say that like Toriyama didn't do the same. Aside from the suicide joke (which was alternate Yamcha, not the Yamcha we're talking about), he's for the most part been shit on slightly less and got to actually snap back.

For example, I think that getting taken off guard and suicide bombed immediately is a lot less pathetic than declaring you can take six enemies on your own, taking on one, landing a solid Kamehameha, having it do no damage, and THEN getting surprised and suicide bombed. DBZA makes it look like Yamcha just got ambushed. DB does the same thing, technically, but it also goes out of its way to make him look stupid and weak.

Another example: Goku actually acts friendly to Yamcha in DBZA ("Yamcha? You're my friend."), while he doesn't even really talk to him at that point in the manga. Also, your series hasn't covered the pre-Raditz story, where he's continually made to look like a joke (if anything, it's implied in your series that he was actually cool or at least dignified prior to the Saiyan battle). Honestly, it seems like he got a better deal here than most. Like Krillin.

[Kid Buu]

But Goku interacts with Yamcha in every arc except the Saiyan Arc.