The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Chrono Trigger]

You know I've honestly never considered that but you're right. I've always been a bit curious about exactly how strong Vegetto actually was and always wanted a better idea of it...especially when you try to stack him up against guys like The God of Destruction....

[hleV]

So the way I figure it, strictly multiplying their scouter-assigned numbers together doesn't work, and can't work. Since the description in question described it as, "like multiplication," I'm more inclined to believe it just means that Vegetto is simply many times greater than Goku and Vegeta alone, and that all else being equal the power increase is especially large compared to the Fusion Dance.

The guidebook talks about battle powers and says Vegetto is like a multiplication of Goku and Vegeta, so, it's not a strict formula (because, like you said, there's no way fusion uses battle power units) but rather how strong Vegetto ended up, if we used battle power units for comparison. So yeah, he is millions or billions of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta alone. If you don't take such simple and outright guidebook statements literally then you might as well disregard guidebooks entirely.

Vegetto being this strong is the reason why I have a hard time comprehending Beerus being even stronger. Before BOG's extended version it was up to interpretation, but now SS3 Goku gets beaten by Beerus and suddenly figures out that he's stronger than even Vegetto? How? He can't sense Beerus' godly ki and the power Beerus used against Goku was far from enough for Goku to compare him to Vegetto. I have doubts about whether this comparison came from Toriyama, somehow.

[Kaboom]

I guess there's sort of an inherent trade-off, then. You either scale back Vegetto's power to something more "reasonable" and possibly undersell him in the process, or you have Beerus obscenely more powerful than he needs to be.

I'm perfectly comfortable with taking a more lax and conservative approach to estimating Vegetto's power (leaving him capping out at something like 100x Goku's max, at best). Vegetto's power is no more literally "GOKU X VEGETA" in my eyes than Gotenks' is literally "GOTEN + TRUNKS" as another guide labeled it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm perfectly comfortable with taking a more lax and conservative approach to estimating Vegetto's power (leaving him capping out at something like 100x Goku's max, at best). Vegetto's power is no more literally "GOKU X VEGETA" in my eyes than Gotenks' is literally "GOTEN + TRUNKS" as another guide labeled it.

This is how I see it as well. The statement in that page talks about multiplication, but it doesn't say that it multiplies 2 battle powers, just that multiplication is involved (which is also the case for Kaio-ken, Super Saiyan, Fusion, etc). The equitation says nothing about battle powers as well, it just talks about Goku, Vegeta, and Vegetto, and it is on top of manga panels that show how Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto with description on each panel.

I'm open to someone interpreting it as Goku's BP x Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP, but this is an interpretation, not a stated fact. It's not about me being stubborn & not accepting it, if it was stated, and I didn't like it, I would either live with it, or I would disregard it completely because it's not in the manga. But the fact is, it's not a fact.

[hleV]

Vegetto's power is no more literally "GOKU X VEGETA" in my eyes than Gotenks' is literally "GOTEN + TRUNKS" as another guide labeled it.

I don't think "Goten + Trunks" comes from a power-related context, let alone involving battle power units. Not to mention it's from anime-based guidebook which may or may not hold as much significance as a manga-based one. What matters about Vegetto is not the "Goku x Vegeta" but the actual sentence describing their fusion's strength.

The statement in that page talks about multiplication, but it doesn't say that it multiplies 2 battle powers

It says it's a not a sum of BPs, but a multiplication. Of BPs, obviously -- they didn't need to add that part and make the sentence look absurd only because someone is nitpicky about things that don't go along with their fan theories.

"Let's talk about battle powers. Nappa is 4,000."
OMG IT DOESN'T SAY NAPPA IS 4,000 BP IT COULD BE ANY UNITS

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think "Goten + Trunks" comes from a power-related context, let alone involving battle power units. Not to mention it's from anime-based guidebook which may or may not hold as much significance as a manga-based one. What matters about Vegetto is not the "Goku x Vegeta" but the actual sentence describing their fusion's strength.

The Gotenks guidebook also talks about battle powers: it says that Gotenks is many times stronger than Goten or Trunks individually.

It says it's a not a sum of BPs, but a multiplication. Of BPs, obviously -- they didn't need to add that part and make the sentence look absurd only because someone is nitpicky about things that don't go along with their fan theories.

By multiplication, it could mean multiplication of BPs (as you believe), or multiplication of the sum of the BPs.

[hleV]

The Gotenks guidebook also talks about battle powers: it says that Gotenks is many times stronger than Goten or Trunks individually.

Battle powers or power in general?

It says it's a not a sum of BPs, but a multiplication. Of BPs, obviously -- they didn't need to add that part and make the sentence look absurd only because someone is nitpicky about things that don't go along with their fan theories.

By multiplication, it could mean multiplication of BPs (as you believe), or multiplication of the sum of the BPs.

If it meant anything else but BPxBP, it would've been specified. The sentence in SEG literally replaces the "+" in "BP+BP" with an "x", making it "BPxBP". "It's not a multiplication of BPs, but a sum." would still mean "sum of BPs", and as much as you'd like to disagree, same goes the other way around.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Battle powers or power in general?

How does it matter?

By multiplication, it could mean multiplication of BPs (as you believe), or multiplication of the sum of the BPs.

If it meant anything else but BPxBP, it would've been specified. The sentence in SEG literally replaces the "+" in "BP+BP" with an "x", making it "BPxBP". "It's not a multiplication of BPs, but a sum." would still mean "sum of BPs", and as much as you'd like to disagree, same goes the other way around.[/quote]
It's not the same the other way around. With sum, there is only one way to go. With multiplication, I can think 2 ways to go. Also...

The power up owing to the merger is not the sum of their two battle powers, but something as amazing as "multiplication"!

This is the exact statement. The "multiplication" part isn't referring to the battle powers, it is referring to the power-up. Remove the sum part of the statement, and the statement says that the power-up is something as amazing as multiplication, aka, the Potara work as a multiplication. Is it a multiplication of the BPs? Is it a multiplication of the sum of the BPs? Is it something else? We can't know. All we have is our own interpretations of that statement.

[rereboy]

It says it's a not a sum of BPs, but a multiplication. Of BPs, obviously -- they didn't need to add that part and make the sentence look absurd only because someone is nitpicky about things that don't go along with their fan theories.

"Let's talk about battle powers. Nappa is 4,000."
OMG IT DOESN'T SAY NAPPA IS 4,000 BP IT COULD BE ANY UNITS

I disagree.

I think its clear that the guidebook simply meant power in general, not in any specific scale, when it was talking about it being "like multiplication". The purpose of this is to provide an idea of magnitude without it actually being anything really specific, and it does this well. So there's no point in trying to rationalize and interpret it into being specific.

[RandomGuy96]

It's certainly a less blatant and concrete statement than the statement that said that dance fusion (for Gotenks, specifically) multiplies the two powers together.

[hleV]

Battle powers or power in general?

How does it matter?

How doesn't it? There's a difference between a certain numerical system used to portray one's power and power itself, which can be expressed in numerical systems of different scales.

It's not the same the other way around. With sum, there is only one way to go. With multiplication, I can think 2 ways to go. Also...

That's exactly why it would've been specified if it meant anything else than the obvious BPxBP.

The power up owing to the merger is not the sum of their two battle powers, but something as amazing as "multiplication"!

This is the exact statement. The "multiplication" part isn't referring to the battle powers, it is referring to the power-up. Remove the sum part of the statement, and the statement says that the power-up is something as amazing as multiplication, aka, the Potara work as a multiplication. Is it a multiplication of the BPs? Is it a multiplication of the sum of the BPs? Is it something else? We can't know. All we have is our own interpretations of that statement.

"Not a sum of BPs, but as amazing as a multiplication." is the same as "Not BP+BP, but as amazing as BPxBP". So like I said, it's not a formula where fusion uses the battle power units, but rather that Vegetto is as amazing as BPxBP. The multiplication part is referring to BPs, because that's what the whole sentence is about, and the only reason it's not specified in the multiplication part is because it was specified already in the sum part and would have made the sentence look bad.

I disagree.

I think its clear that the guidebook simply meant power in general, not in any specific scale, when it was talking about it being "like multiplication".

Clear to whom? Because it literally says that the BPs are not added together, but as if multiplied.

The purpose of this is to provide an idea of magnitude without it actually being anything really specific, and it does this well.

Is that why the whole section consists of power multiplier examples with absolute numbers like x50, x2, x4, etc.?

So there's no point in trying to rationalize and interpret it into being specific.

Right, because what is actually said in the guidebook goes against your fan theories.

It's certainly a less blatant and concrete statement than the statement that said that dance fusion (for Gotenks, specifically) multiplies the two powers together.

Nothing wrong with that statement neither, doesn't talk about battle power units.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How doesn't it? There's a difference between a certain numerical system used to portray one's power and power itself, which can be expressed in numerical systems of different scales.

Being many times stronger than the individual is the same in whatever way you scale power, whether it is battle power units, kiri units, or anything else.

"Not a sum of BPs, but as amazing as a multiplication." is the same as "Not BP+BP, but as amazing as BPxBP".

No, it's not the exactly same. We don't know what kind of multiplication is involved. The point of that statement isn't there to give us a formula, or to tell us that Vegetto is millions of times stronger than Goku & Vegeta individually, it is there to tell us that Vegetto is many stronger than Goku & Vegeta combined, and not just Goku's BP + Vegeta's BP. Which is what the manga shows, by having SS Vegetto much stronger than SS3 Goku. You are the one that is nit-picking by looking too much into it, not me.

The multiplication part is referring to BPs, because that's what the whole sentence is about, and the only reason it's not specified in the multiplication part is because it was specified already in the sum part and would have made the sentence look bad.

The sentence is about the power-up that the Potara gives, not literally about numbers.

Clear to whom? Because it literally says that the BPs are not added together, but as if multiplied.

No, that's what it says when you paraphrase it.

It's certainly a less blatant and concrete statement than the statement that said that dance fusion (for Gotenks, specifically) multiplies the two powers together.

Herms said that the word Japanese word that was used for "multiply" could also be translated as "hybridize/crossbreed", which makes more sense since a) it doesn't refer to battle powers, just power, b) Fusion really does that, and c) AxB being the formula for Fusion contradicts the manga.

[White Oni]

Wait people actually take the guide books seriously here?

According to various DB Guides, Dragon ball (not z) characters are FTL, Tien's a decedent of an alien race, and Vegetto (and apparently gotenks) are a multiplication of their parts....

What do they need to say in order to not be taken serious, "Goku's really a woman"?

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Some comments about the 23rd Budokai a couple pages back rose a few questions. This is regarding battle power for all the Z fighters. I seem to have a hard time understanding why in this 5 year gap between 23rd Budokai and Saiyan Saga are the power increases very insignificant? I personally have Goku, Tien, and Piccolo all over 200. Last time I did a Dragon Ball list, I put Tien at 215, weighted Goku at 212 (260 w/o weight) and weighted Piccolo at 210 (255 w/o weights). It doesn't seem right putting them all below the 200 mark, for certain reasons. Like Roshi being at 139, and Cyborg Tao obviously is at least considerably stronger compared to before, so I don't want to put Cyborg Tao very low (he's at 185 on my list).

And then skip 5 years forward; Krillin (according to my list) only gained 16 points, and Tien gaining 35 points. It also seems like characters such as Yamcha either stopped training or only occasionally exercised.. (177??) I had him at 175 in the previous budokai, putting him at 160 or 150 doesn't make sense (the gap between these characters shouldn't be too big)

Either they made a mistake with Roshi's BP to begin with, or maybe battle power in Dragon Ball just follow different rules? (like being closer together and still making a difference in battles?)

Oh and, about Vegetto being both BP multiplied together? That's insane! Even in base form, that puts him 1000x stronger than where I put God Birus on my list!! I am a huge fan of Vegetto and I don't have him anywhere near that strong.

I think fusions should follow formulas, much like what transformations do. It makes better sense anyway.

[hleV]

How doesn't it? There's a difference between a certain numerical system used to portray one's power and power itself, which can be expressed in numerical systems of different scales.

Being many times stronger than the individual is the same in whatever way you scale power, whether it is battle power units, kiri units, or anything else.

AxB in battle power units doesn't have to be equal to AxB in unknown units.

"Not a sum of BPs, but as amazing as a multiplication." is the same as "Not BP+BP, but as amazing as BPxBP".

No, it's not the exactly same. We don't know what kind of multiplication is involved. The point of that statement isn't there to give us a formula, or to tell us that Vegetto is millions of times stronger than Goku & Vegeta individually, it is there to tell us that Vegetto is many stronger than Goku & Vegeta combined, and not just Goku's BP + Vegeta's BP. Which is what the manga shows, by having SS Vegetto much stronger than SS3 Goku. You are the one that is nit-picking by looking too much into it, not me.

I keep repeating this but you still somehow don't get it. The sentence does mean AxB in BP units because BP is what's being talked about here. It's common sense, because, again, it would've been specified if it didn't. If it didn't mean BP, it would have been said "not a sum of BPs, but something involving/closer to multiplication". Or hell, they wouldn't have used the term battle power in the sentence, making it unclear what units are used for the multiplication. Again, common sense. Not a sum (of BPs), but a multiplication. I honestly don't understand how can one deny something so obvious in favor of their fan theories.
I'm most definitely not nitpicking, I'm seeing it the way it is, not the way I want it to be.

The multiplication part is referring to BPs, because that's what the whole sentence is about, and the only reason it's not specified in the multiplication part is because it was specified already in the sum part and would have made the sentence look bad.

The sentence is about the power-up that the Potara gives, not literally about numbers.

The sentence is comparing the power up Vegetto got to a BP multiplication.

Clear to whom? Because it literally says that the BPs are not added together, but as if multiplied.

No, that's what it says when you paraphrase it.

It apparently needs to be paraphrased because some people, unlike me (or Kanzenshuu staff which seems to know Japanese, for that matter), fail to understand what it's saying. The whole SEG section is about exact multipliers that are very straightforward. Why start being ambigous with Vegetto?

[Kaboom]

I think it might be time to take the "just how literal is GOKU X VEGETA = VEGETTO" discussion to a new thread of its own if anyone wants to continue it.

[hleV]

I think it might be time to take the "just how literal is GOKU X VEGETA = VEGETTO" discussion to a new thread of its own if anyone wants to continue it.

You mean how literal is "not BP+BP, but BPxBP"? "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" is not what's being discussed here. It was pretty much settled in the previous thread where DBZGTO[...] was questioning Kanzenshuu staff's interpretation of the statement where it was clearly told that the sentence means exactly what I'm to this day trying to tell people who fail (or rather, don't want) to correctly interpret very simple and straightforward sentences.

[VegettoEX]

Wait people actually take the guide books seriously here?

According to various DB Guides, Dragon ball (not z) characters are FTL, Tenshinhan's a decedent of an alien race, and Vegetto (and apparently gotenks) are a multiplication of their parts....

What do they need to say in order to not be taken serious, "Goku's really a woman"?

If people want to talk about guide books and what they say, what's the problem there? If you don't, that's fine. Don't.

For what it's worth, there are contradictions in the manga, contradictions in the TV series, and contradictions from the mouth of the author himself (and that's not even getting into the world of expanded information, which is what you're talking about). Nothing in the entire franchise is self-consistent. If you're looking for that, you're looking in the wrong series!

The amount of scoffing people have over their own interpretation of strength in the series is something that I see going above and beyond ye olden dub/sub arguments. Don't be that person. We can strive to be better than that and not dismiss a conversation outright because it's not something we are personally interested in.

[White Oni]

Wait people actually take the guide books seriously here?

According to various DB Guides, Dragon ball (not z) characters are FTL, Tenshinhan's a decedent of an alien race, and Vegetto (and apparently gotenks) are a multiplication of their parts....

What do they need to say in order to not be taken serious, "Goku's really a woman"?

If people want to talk about guide books and what they say, what's the problem there? If you don't, that's fine. Don't.

For what it's worth, there are contradictions in the manga, contradictions in the TV series, and contradictions from the mouth of the author himself (and that's not even getting into the world of expanded information, which is what you're talking about). Nothing in the entire franchise is self-consistent. If you're looking for that, you're looking in the wrong series!

The amount of scoffing people have over their own interpretation of strength in the series is something that I see going above and beyond ye olden dub/sub arguments. Don't be that person. We can strive to be better than that and not dismiss a conversation outright because it's not something we are personally interested in.

What a huge waste of energy.

I don't have any issue with the guide books or the inconsistency of everything DB, which I believe everyone here is well aware of.

The only reason I mentioned what I did was because OTHER people were disrespecting the opinions of others, raising the guide books above their head and chanting to shenron about their holiness.

I like the guide books, they're "cool yo." but I don't take them seriously, because of aforementioned reasons.

In a discussion like this, the only content that needs to be taken seriously is the canon material, the most obviously canon content is the work in discussion. One can argue that the author's interviews are important and I can respect that to a degree, but "official" guides, that were "overseen" by the author, that's a stretch, and the bigger the stretch, the less inclined to take massive errors, in that work, seriously.

[VegettoEX]

What a huge waste of energy.

Then don't contribute to it. There is no proverbial gun to your head.

In a discussion like this, the only content that needs to be taken seriously is the canon material, the most obviously canon content is the work in discussion.

It's an "all-purpose" thread. Anything anyone wants to bring to the table is worthwhile. If you don't want to consider it, don't consider it. See point #1 above. If you see someone else being rude, report the posts and let the moderation team handle it. Don't reduce yourself to that level.

One can argue that the author's interviews are important and I can respect that to a degree, but "official" guides, that were "overseen" by the author, that's a stretch, and the bigger the stretch, the less inclined to take massive errors, in that work, seriously.

Toriyama flipped back and forth on completely new origin explanations for the Kaioshin in a matter of two months just this year alone. If you're willing to entertain / put up with that, I don't see why being willing to dive into guide book material is such a laughable issue.