Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:19 am
VegettoEX wrote:We got your point loud and clear, and our personal interests do not affect how we document things or present them on the website itself. Whether English is your second language or not, you continue to be rude about it and dismiss what is explained to you about the context. The four of us on staff are not going to engage in these discussions with you further, and we're not going to let you disparage us, the site, or the community you're talking with over these points.
Sorry for being rude, but... apparently you didn't when you could only see a valid point "under there somewhere" (but then again, maybe it is my fault about that). I mean, look at these:
- The guidebook says that the power-up works as "multiplication". Does it say anything else more specific about it? No, it doesn't. Except from being clear that it isn't a sum of the 2 battle powers that is.
- Does the "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" say anything about battle powers, or any number at all? No, not only it is nowhere near the statement, it is actually on top of manga panels that explain analytically how Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto.
- Does the "X" only mean multiplication? It doesn't, it can also mean "cross", and this seems to be the case here, since
- a) The equitation doesn't mention any numbers, and you can't multiply 2 people together for obvious reasons, and
b) If "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" is read as "Goku cross Vegeta equals to Vegetto", it could be paraphrased as "Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto". Which is what all these images with the analytically description that have the "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" on top of them happen to talk about!
And let's not forget how clear the very same guidebook was when it wanted to give multipliers to the Super Saiyan forms.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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xmysticgohanx
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by xmysticgohanx » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:18 pm
xmysticgohanx wrote:Saiyan Arc Vegetto would at a super duper super duper super dupe... low end be at (reasoning shall be added if asked for) 1,792,000. KKx4 would be 7,168,000.
Time to get this thread back on track. Goku said pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. Since we don't know by how much, let's just say
post RoSaT SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku. SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Buu so Super Buu is 8x SSJ3 Goku. Super Buu ate Gotenks so it should be 8+8; Buutenks is 16x Goku. Gohan did equally bad against Buutenks as he did good vs Super Buu. 12 is the average of 8 and 16, so Gohan is 12x Goku. Buuhan is 16+12 so 28. Let's say SSJ Vegetto is = Buuhan (low end remember lol) so SSJ Vegetto is 28x SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegetto is (28/50)400. 50 is the SSJ multiplier and the 400 is because the 28x is from SSJ3 Goku not base. That equals 224x from base. Let's say it only multiplies from the lowest pl (because super blablabla low end) so 8,000 x 224 is 1,792,000
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:25 pm
xmysticgohanx wrote:xmysticgohanx wrote:Saiyan Arc Vegetto would at a super duper super duper super dupe... low end be at (reasoning shall be added if asked for) 1,792,000. KKx4 would be 7,168,000.
Time to get this thread back on track. Goku said pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. Since we don't know by how much, let's just say
post RoSaT SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku. SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Buu so Super Buu is 8x SSJ3 Goku. Super Buu ate Gotenks so it should be 8+8; Buutenks is 16x Goku. Gohan did equally bad against Buutenks as he did good vs Super Buu. 12 is the average of 8 and 16, so Gohan is 12x Goku. Buuhan is 16+12 so 28. Let's say SSJ Vegetto is = Buuhan (low end remember lol) so SSJ Vegetto is 28x SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegetto is (28/50)400. 50 is the SSJ multiplier and the 400 is because the 28x is from SSJ3 Goku not base. That equals 224x from base. Let's say it only multiplies from the lowest pl (because super blablabla low end) so 8,000 x 224 is 1,792,000
Buuhan wouldn't be 16 + 12 in your example. Gotenks defused before Buu absorbed Buuhan. So Buuhan would be Buu w/Goten, Trunks, & Piccolo + Gohan.
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xmysticgohanx
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by xmysticgohanx » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:50 pm
Well that means Buuhan is 8+12 so 20. [(20/50)400]8000 is 1,280,000. It's still a crazy low end number that puts Saiyan arc Vegetto at least > 1st form Freeza
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:05 pm
hleV wrote:
Right, because what is actually said in the guidebook goes against your fan theories.
When did I even mention fan theories?
What is actually said in the guidebook is an unspecific, uncommitted, general comment regarding the issue that only succeeds in presenting the reader with just an idea of magnitude by saying its like multiplying.
Now, you can argue all day on what it might mean specifically, but I for one don't believe that it was a mistake that the authors of the guidebook weren't a lot more specific about how it works. The fact that they weren't, tells me that they didn't want it to be very specific information, just an idea of magnitude, and that's exactly what the reader got.
Therefore, I see no point in constructing something specific out of it, since its not even meant to be that.
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hleV
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by hleV » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:12 pm
Well yes, Vegetto's formula isn't BPxBP because that's not how fusion works. He's as amazing as BPxBP, though.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:16 pm
If you are essentially agreeing with me now, even though I just basically repeated what I had said previously in other words, I fail to see why you disagreed with me earlier and even stated that what I was saying was because of "fan theories". But I guess it doesn't really matter either way.
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Eternal Super Saiyan
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by Eternal Super Saiyan » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:39 am
How strong would Gotenks be if it was A x B? In that case; Base Gotenks >>> Buuhan. Clearly he needed even SSJ3 to surpass normal Super Buu's strength. And Ultimate Gohan is supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. I just shot down that theory in 10 seconds. It's not A x B for fusion, go by algorithms like transformations do, not only does it make more sense on your power level list but there also aren't ginormous gaps between one another's power level that way.. And lastly I feel that Buu Saga Vegetto doesn't come close to the Gods in the new movie.
On a new note; how about Supreme Kai vs. Pikkon? (I assume no one ever discussed that, there's many pages I never got to reading.
)
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
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White Oni
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by White Oni » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:07 am
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
On a new note; how about Supreme Kai vs. Paikuhan? (I assume no one ever discussed that, there's many pages I never got to reading.
)
Weighted Pikkon effortlessly defeated Cell and was able to stun super janemba(who's arguably on par with super buu) with a blow to the head.
Kaioshin << Dabura < Cell << Paikuhan
Kaioshin's only shot of winning is his magic, which was strong enough to hold down ssj2 Gohan(thought Gohan was considerably weaker and kaioshin said it was difficult to keep him at bay.)
Unless kaioshin has some crazy magic up his sleeve, Paikuhan wins with minimal effort.
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hleV
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by hleV » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:17 am
rereboy wrote:If you are essentially agreeing with me now, even though I just basically repeated what I had said previously in other words, I fail to see why you disagreed with me earlier and even stated that what I was saying was because of "fan theories". But I guess it doesn't really matter either way.
The guidebook is comparing Vegetto to a
specific BPxBP. Didn't you disagree with this? Someone disagreed with the BPxBP part, so I focused on that and skipped the "as amazing as" part in most of my posts.
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:How strong would Gotenks be if it was A x B? In that case; Base Gotenks >>> Buuhan. Clearly he needed even SSJ3 to surpass normal Super Buu's strength. And Ultimate Gohan is supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. I just shot down that theory in 10 seconds. It's not A x B for fusion, go by algorithms like transformations do, not only does it make more sense on your power level list but there also aren't ginormous gaps between one another's power level that way.
Are you even following the discussion? We're talking about Vegetto specifically. The series itself heavily suggested that Vegetto was amazing because he's Vegetto, not because of just fusion. Gotenks is not BPxBP (perhaps power x power in certain scale, but not BP), neither is Kibitoshin. Vegetto is as strong as BPxBP, though.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:21 pm
Again, if Vegetto's BP really is a multiplication of Goku's & Vegeta's, how did Vegetto fail so much to realize how strong he was when he was created? Because according to what you say, base Vegetto is far stronger than Boo. Shouldn't he be aware of at least this? Maybe he wasn't aware of his full power, but he should have an idea of how strong he is.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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hleV
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by hleV » Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:21 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Again, if Vegetto's BP really is a multiplication of Goku's & Vegeta's, how did Vegetto fail so much to realize how strong he was when he was created? Because according to what you say, base Vegetto is far stronger than Boo. Shouldn't he be aware of at least this? Maybe he wasn't aware of his full power, but he should have an idea of how strong he is.
What does Vegetto being or not being BPxBP have to do with Vegetto failing to realize his own power? Maybe once you fuse you don't instantly realize your power, who cares? It's completely irrelevant.
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White Oni
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by White Oni » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:17 pm
The bottom line is that, if you take the guide books as infallabe, you simply MUST accept something along the lines of Goku X Vegeta.
However, if you go simply off the manga, it's unclear, how strong vegetto is.
My opinion is that it's something along the lines of ssj vegetto being x2 stronger tha buuhan. We've seen in the past, that a x2 difference is HUGE in the series and that it would be more than enough for the events we see to make sense.
Some things to keep in mind:
1) Kibitokai clearly realized how powerful he was as soon as he fused, and was even cocky enough to suggest attacking buu himself.
2) Vegetto was surprised by his superiority over buu, after turning just ssj.
3) If a multiplication factor was involved in patara fusion, then none of the above would make sense. Kibitokai would have been right, he would have been far more than enough for buu, Vegetto would have NEVER been surprised that his ssj was stronger than buu, as his Base would have been far more than enough for him.
To me, personally, I think the guide editors felt a need to address such a major plot point, and, in one of many whims, just threw a really vague sentence, addressing the plot point, together, not realizing that people would take it as absolute fact.
And none of this is even bringing the events of BoG, which spit in the face of goku x vegeta theories, into play
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Pantalones
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by Pantalones » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:06 pm
What's said in the guide doesn't even say "Potara fusion is multiplication of power levels" or anything along those lines, if you're talking about the same guidebook "statement" that I've usually seen brought out when this topic comes up.
It says something along the lines of "if [fusion dance] fusion is like addition, then Potara fusion may even be as incredible as multiplication!" Which is hardly a "this is how this actually, literally works... with MATH!" statement. That's nothing more than a generic "look at how amazing this amazing new thing is! it's so much more amazing than this other already-pretty-amazing thing!!" statement. It's like the Japanese movie titles: lots of exclamation marks and generic proclamations of strength and amazingness, but little else.
And as far as the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegerot" picture... fusion dance's results have been represented with similar "diagrams" showing "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks." But Gotenks can't literally be Goten + Trunks; his Super Saiyan form (which, remember, is supposedly on par with SSj3 Goku and enough to beat Fat Buu... and shown to be capable of harming Super Buu, albeit not a lot) would be weaker than SSj2 Gohan. And that's the maximum possible level of a SSj "Addition Gotenks" since even that level requires you to assume that the kids really are nearly as strong as Gohan individually. If Gotenks can't literally be Goten + Trunks, why should anyone assume that Vegerot should be literally Goku x Vegeta? Just put him at "somewhere way above Buu after absorbing Gohan" (either in base or just in Super Saiyan, depending on your interpretation of him going SSj immediately in the manga... or if you're going by the anime version) and leave the math out of it.
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hleV
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by hleV » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:13 pm
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:48 pm
hleV wrote:What does Vegetto being or not being BPxBP have to do with Vegetto failing to realize his own power? Maybe once you fuse you don't instantly realize your power, who cares? It's completely irrelevant.
How is it irrelevant? It makes Vegetto look stupid. If his battle power is BPxBP, his base form would be much, much stronger than Boo, even at his 50%. Yet Vegetto decided that using Super Saiyan was the best way to kick his ass & humiliate him to the point that he would try to absorb him.
And why wouldn't he instantly realize his power? This doesn't make any sense.
Pantalones wrote:What's said in the guide doesn't even say "Potara fusion is multiplication of power levels" or anything along those lines, if you're talking about the same guidebook "statement" that I've usually seen brought out when this topic comes up.
That's what I'm trying to say all this time.
I even broke down the whole thing, and I still can't see where it is said anywhere that it involves multiplication of 2 battle powers.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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rereboy
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by rereboy » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:41 am
hleV wrote:
The guidebook is comparing Vegetto to a specific BPxBP. Didn't you disagree with this? Someone disagreed with the BPxBP part, so I focused on that and skipped the "as amazing as" part in most of my posts.
My whole point is that the guidebook is not stating
anything specific, its purposely generic and uncommitted and only gives you an idea of magnitude. And you agreed with that in my last comment. Anyway, whether you agree or not, like I said, I fail to see the point of your first reply and your mention of fan theories.
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:59 am
Just put him at "somewhere way above Buu after absorbing Gohan" (either in base or just in Super Saiyan, depending on your interpretation of him going SSj immediately in the manga... or if you're going by the anime version) and leave the math out of it.
The anime seems to have Buuhan > base Vegetto, though.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:00 am
RandomGuy96 wrote:Just put him at "somewhere way above Buu after absorbing Gohan" (either in base or just in Super Saiyan, depending on your interpretation of him going SSj immediately in the manga... or if you're going by the anime version) and leave the math out of it.
The anime seems to have Buuhan > base Vegetto, though.
Eh? Vegetto was kicking his ass.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:10 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:Just put him at "somewhere way above Buu after absorbing Gohan" (either in base or just in Super Saiyan, depending on your interpretation of him going SSj immediately in the manga... or if you're going by the anime version) and leave the math out of it.
The anime seems to have Buuhan > base Vegetto, though.
Eh? Vegetto was kicking his ass.
Yeah, but it appears that Buu was suppressed. He does a big power-up and throws an energy sphere near the end of the base Vegetto vs Buuhan filler. Vegetto casually deflects the energy sphere, and Buu smiles in response (rather than getting freaked out as he would later do), mocks him for thinking that deflecting it means anything, and states that Vegetto, though he is stronger than Buu thought, still has not surpassed him. Vegetto, rather than contradicting Buu and just punching him in the face or something (as he would later do), says "Then why don't I show you?" and transforms. In support of these statements, we later see full power Buuhan giving trouble to SS Vegetto.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
