Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U.S.?

[Smochi]

I think some people are unable to watch ANYTHING without trying to reduce each moment to a series of questions (How was that done? Why was it done? What if they did this?) and while there's nothing wrong with it, it makes some things impossible to enjoy. And while this might make them overly critical of a lot of things we love, it's also really intsting to see what meets their expectations for actual enjoyment. I have a few friends who think that 99% of entertainment is trash, and I've found about a handful of gems by asking them what they do like. Some people are born critical of everything, and nothing will change it despite how much you love it. That accounts for the people who dislike it due to it being parody at all.

Some people don't like it because so many others do.

Some don't like it because people start taking the jokes as canon material and it makes conversation about original DBZ difficult.

Some people refuse to partake in entertainment, food and friends that are super authentic Japanese-desu.


I think the reasons that it isn't liked by a different person are vast, and there's a huge range in whether the reasons are (in my opinion) legit.

Personally, I think it's given new life to the franchise. I have met so many people who probably would have laughed at me for liking it at one time who now quote DBZA all the time and even started re-watching DBZ. It makes my friends and I smile, and has given me, a fan, new DBZ-related material to enjoy! I've seen non-DBZ fans turn into fans because they saw DBZA, but I have never seen an original DBZ fan turn away from the show because of DBZA, regardless if they like it or not. If something brings more fans to the original show than it had before or rekindled the love for ex-fans, I don't see any detriment to the reputation.

[Attitudefan]

No offense, but if you (and I use this in general) are the type who are going to sit there and over dissect every little thing to the kind of degree I'm seeing here as of late...then yeah, no wonder Abridged humor in general isn't really going to be for you. Is it so impossible to just enjoy something humorous without trying to sit there and act like you're dissecting it in some college course? Not everything has to be 'trendsetting' or completely original (and let's face it, NOTHING is original) to be enjoyable. Jeebus.

I don't agree with what you're trying to get at. At all.

I can't turn my brain off and watch season three of dubbed DBZ. There is zero enjoyment I can find there. I can't do it. It's impossible for me to not analyze it, dissect it, and so on and so forth.

I'm not saying that has to be done, at all. It's perfectly fine to analyze something and be critical of it, but there's a limit to it IMO, and if someone is finding this much displeasure in something - in this case, Abridged - then wouldn't it be better to just not pay any attention to it? And unlike with Season Three of DBZ, which was the only release of the official material at the time in the US and pretty much had to get fan's attentions and vitriol, Abridged is a supplementary fan work. I just don't see what the point is of analyzing something that's just meant to be for fun, and in no way replaces the original, to that degree. Especially not in as condescending a manner as some of it was coming off as. But perhaps that's just me, and I'm overstepping my bounds here.

I disagree Kaliba. I think everything should be criticized to a degree. If we allow us consumers of entertainment, on any level, be it amateur or professional, I think we should dissect it point by point for it should not be acceptable to have to tolerate mediocre products and just say "it is what it is, turn off your brain and take it".

I also think it is unacceptable to say, "just enjoy it and stop dissecting it" on a platform such as Kanzenshuu, where it's selling point is to have discussions, arguments, debates, dissections, and deconstructions without being told that the poster is an elite snob. The platform is a forum, where subjects like Team Four Star, are allowed to be dissected and debated upon along with the rest of the fandom. That is why I love Kanzenshuu, and I dislike when people say to stop doing such things when such things are the intended form of discourse on the forum!

And if you disagree with dissection topics, avoid them. Nobody is forcing you to come to this thread where you might "lose interest" because "over analysing something like Dragonball ruins the experience".

[rereboy]

I don't agree with what you're trying to get at. At all.

I can't turn my brain off and watch season three of dubbed DBZ. There is zero enjoyment I can find there. I can't do it. It's impossible for me to not analyze it, dissect it, and so on and so forth.

When I watch a comedian doing stand-up comedy, I don't see the point in dissecting and over-analyzing his jokes.

DB abridged, as a fan-made comedy-parody of DB, is on a comparable level to that, so I also don't see any point in dissecting and over-analyzing it.

Season three of dubbed DBZ is not on a comparable level to that because its not meant or supposed to be a parody or a comedy.

[ABED]

I disagree Kaliba. I think everything should be criticized to a degree. If we allow us consumers of entertainment, on any level, be it amateur or professional, I think we should dissect it point by point for it should not be acceptable to have to tolerate mediocre products and just say "it is what it is, turn off your brain and take it".

No, you can dissect anything almost to the point where you wonder why you even watch it. It doesn't become fun and relaxing, it becomes a chore. It doesn't mean you have to turn your brain off, just that you can enjoy something on a gut response emotional level (you enjoy something, or you don't). Let your subconscious do the work. If you want to dissect, fine, but it's not imperative in order to demand better products. FUNi is far less likely to listen to those criticisms than their financial statements.

[Attitudefan]

I disagree Kaliba. I think everything should be criticized to a degree. If we allow us consumers of entertainment, on any level, be it amateur or professional, I think we should dissect it point by point for it should not be acceptable to have to tolerate mediocre products and just say "it is what it is, turn off your brain and take it".

No, you can dissect anything almost to the point where you wonder why you even watch it. It doesn't become fun and relaxing, it becomes a chore. It doesn't mean you have to turn your brain off, just that you can enjoy something on a gut response emotional level (you enjoy something, or you don't). Let your subconscious do the work. If you want to dissect, fine, but it's not imperative in order to demand better products. FUNi is far less likely to listen to those criticisms than their financial statements.

But FUNi has listened to the fans dissecting the product and Uncensored Dragon Ball Z was a major part in that movement. It's very possible that if the fans didn't do what they did, that DBZ may have never came over uncut. It is also very possible that products like Kai wouldn't have had their chance to shine either.

However, one could argue that it was inevitable for an uncut release and a re-re-revised dub to occur because of circumstances in the industry at the time, which the fans had no control over.

[Puto]

There's a very big difference between dissecting a terrible, official dub that presents itself as being the show, and dissecting a fan-made parody that explicitly states it is a parody, is meant to be a parody, and even encourages its viewers to get the original show. In fact, that's my biggest problem with the English dub—the fact that it calls itself ‘Dragon Ball Z’. By doing that, they are implying ‘this is the same show’. TFS most certainly are not presenting their show as the real thing, but as something else entirely.

[ABED]

But FUNi has listened to the fans dissecting the product and Uncensored Dragon Ball Z was a major part in that movement. It's very possible that if the fans didn't do what they did, that DBZ may have never came over uncut. It is also very possible that products like Kai wouldn't have had their chance to shine either.

However, one could argue that it was inevitable for an uncut release and a re-re-revised dub to occur because of circumstances in the industry at the time, which the fans had no control over.

I think you give far too much credit to that site and the effect it had on FUNi. I would give more credit to people like Sabat and Cook for the change.

[Attitudefan]

But FUNi has listened to the fans dissecting the product and Uncensored Dragon Ball Z was a major part in that movement. It's very possible that if the fans didn't do what they did, that DBZ may have never came over uncut. It is also very possible that products like Kai wouldn't have had their chance to shine either.

However, one could argue that it was inevitable for an uncut release and a re-re-revised dub to occur because of circumstances in the industry at the time, which the fans had no control over.

I think you give far too much credit to that site and the effect it had on FUNi. I would give more credit to people like Sabat and Cook for the change.

Well, I think Sabat and Cook became aware because of the community and their disgruntled opinions. It was a factor, whether how much of an impact it actually made can be disputed. It still made an impact.

[ABED]

Sure, at conventions and such, but those fans are a small subsect of DBZ's viewership. When you listen to interviews, it's clear that Sabat didn't like what was written back then, and Cook is a big fan of fidelity to source material.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Stepping back into this just to clarify again - I'm not saying that someone can't or shouldn't be critical. I myself am severely critical of a lot of things. But I stop short of analyzing every single little minutia of something, because if I'm looking THAT deeply into something...then I can't enjoy it. Maybe that's just me, but it just doesn't make any sense to me, it literally makes zero sense, how it would be possible to ever enjoy anything if I were ever trying to look at it to that level. Analyzing is fine, it's over-analyzing that I can't get behind.

[ABED]

I understand your point, but just because you analyze something doesn't mean you can't just enjoy it the next time around as a fan.

[gohann]

To an extent, yes. It's not as bad as, say, LittleKuriboh's Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series, but still up there. Look how many people actually think Kaiba says "Screw the rules, I have money", that he's mean to his brother, that Tristan actually said his voice gives him super strength (not as bad as the Kaiba examples), etc....

[rereboy]

To an extent, yes. It's not as bad as, say, LittleKuriboh's Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series, but still up there. Look how many people actually think Kaiba says "Screw the rules, I have money", that he's mean to his brother, that Tristan actually said his voice gives him super strength (not as bad as the Kaiba examples), etc....

Its not the author's or the product's fault that people don't know what "parody" means.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

So long as Abridged series do their broader purpose create new fans, which most of them do, I'll put up with a few line spammers. They are rather easy to ignore, online at least; conventions can't be helped, but then they're conventions.

[ImmaDeker]

Like making a three minute segway to prolonged joke at Captain Picard's impotence while reminding Crusher Jr. that nobody likes him- in an episode about Kimberly's reacting to getting shot back in time by becoming a bloody outlaw? Certainly not judging a series entirely on a couple episodes (the editing is indeed superb, wow), but its no more funny when seemingly more talented people do it.

Context is everything. Do I like that joke? Not especially. But I remember the whole way more fondly because, y'know, the rest isn't vapid, awful pandering shit. Art is imperfect, whether fanmade or otherwise: I don't expect to love every second of the thing or be floored by every joke, so I don't see what I have to defend. Sure, I don't like that bit. I do like the bit where Bulk's chased by Columbo, if we're talking pop culture references.

The difference between I WESLEY CRUSHED THEM and sad Abridged is that I WESLEY CRUSHED THEM is at least surrounded by goodwill. Even if it's a sudden slog, it's not as mind numbingly awful as the average Abridged episode. Context is everything.

Also, not even seemingly. They are more talented.

I admit, a better example would have been Lumis/Umbra as the Mooninites; stealing from Adult Swim, but at least in that comparison both are channeling circumstantial associations (YGO's being to fill in a creative void of a tall and a short villainous duo that are prone to argument but have no given names or personalities in any version, Duel Master's pointing out aesthetics- Hakuo's Helmet, Kokujo's being a caped dark-civilization player dueling at night, etc.), one having to make the "bigger" pull to make the unmemorable memorable in any fashion.

Filling a creative void with your own creative void is not the same as commenting on or making jokes out of absurdity. I'm pretty sure Duel Masters never straight up was like "Let's just write Bruce Wayne in the Duel Masters universe."

No offense, but if you (and I use this in general) are the type who are going to sit there and over dissect every little thing to the kind of degree I'm seeing here as of late...then yeah, no wonder Abridged humor in general isn't really going to be for you. Is it so impossible to just enjoy something humorous without trying to sit there and act like you're dissecting it in some college course? Not everything has to be 'trendsetting' or completely original (and let's face it, NOTHING is original) to be enjoyable. Jeebus.

Oh stop it. I doubt this is even a moral point for you, I'm just demolishing something you like. Five bucks says if I dissected something like that, but you hated it, you wouldn't say a word. And don't even pull the originality argument. I want something to not insult my senses with HEY

HEY

HEY

YOU REMEMBER HOW LIKE

LIKE

YOU HATE DRAGONBALL GT?

and actually just give me jokes.

You act like people can't enjoy being "over-analytical", or overanalysis doesn't vary from context to context. I recently celebrated my birthday by going to a comic shop and giggling myself happy as I read a Papercutz Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers comic book. That, despite being written for six year olds, didn't suffer from my "over-analysis." Probably because it did its job exactly as well as it could and was an enjoyable reading experience for a fan of that franchise like myself (oh, yeah, liking Power Rangers in general probably also qualifies as "AW COME ON GUYS TURN YOUR BRAINS OFF AND LIKE THINGS I LIKE", except I don't know if you like Power Rangers or not).

Again, context is everything. Is it really so bad I expect more from comedy than soulless pop cultural references regurgitated in memes with no narrative context?

Also,

Is it so impossible to just enjoy something humorous

No, it's very possible. But I don't find something humorous, and I'm pretty sure "Is it so impossible to just enjoy something I find funny" is not a valid argument.

Comedy is dead.

LittleKuriboh himself admitted that the later half the Virtual World arc was awful to write for and forced him to ask himself "What am I doing? Is this comedy?"

It took him that long to ask himself that?

I don't agree with what you're trying to get at. At all.

I can't turn my brain off and watch season three of dubbed DBZ. There is zero enjoyment I can find there. I can't do it. It's impossible for me to not analyze it, dissect it, and so on and so forth.

You. I like you.

When I watch a comedian doing stand-up comedy, I don't see the point in dissecting and over-analyzing his jokes.

DB abridged, as a fan-made comedy-parody of DB, is on a comparable level to that, so I also don't see any point in dissecting and over-analyzing it

This is the most upsetting comparison I've ever seen in a discussion about comedy and theology exists only to propel court jesters and tummlers.

[rereboy]

When I watch a comedian doing stand-up comedy, I don't see the point in dissecting and over-analyzing his jokes.

DB abridged, as a fan-made comedy-parody of DB, is on a comparable level to that, so I also don't see any point in dissecting and over-analyzing it

This is the most upsetting comparison I've ever seen in a discussion about comedy and theology exists only to propel court jesters and tummlers.

Wait... what?

So, if a stand up comedian starts to talk about the hard time his wife gives him every time he goes out, I should just start to over-analyze his jokes and consider his inspiration for the jokes, the probability that those jokes are founded on his own current relationship or previous ones, the anthropological meaning for our society that such a situation is so stereotypical than it becomes funny for most people, the psychological disposition of the comedian that allows him to talk about his wife in public like that whether its actually true or not, the possibility that that particular brand of humor might become even more popular and the probable consequences of such a thing on society, and so on?

Or should I just take the joke as its meant to and only analyze superficially just to see if its funny or not like its meant to?

How is that different from a parody of an anime? Its basically a bunch of guys reenacting the anime in a humorous fashion and making jokes around it. I fail to see any significant difference.

And theology? Where did that come from?

[Gyt Kaliba]

Oh stop it. I doubt this is even a moral point for you, I'm just demolishing something you like. Five bucks says if I dissected something like that, but you hated it, you wouldn't say a word.

It very much is a moral point, at least more so than it is 'demolishing something I like'. Abridged is a nice icing on top of my Dragon Ball fandom, but it's far from my favorite part of it. If people don't like it, that's fine; and likewise I get just as annoyed at people over quoting it as anyone else does. And as far as if this was targeted towards something I don't like, then you're right to a degree - it wouldn't bother me as much. That's only natural. But again, what rubs me the wrong way isn't that it's against something I like, it's the overly pretentious way in which you're doing it. It's just an attitude that I cannot stand, in regards to anything, really. It's the same way that 'dur hur Narutard sucks' and 'Oh my god let's make another Twilight riff' get old fast - if you don't like something, at least in my opinion, it's a lot more productive to just say so and move on, rather than sit there continually bashing it.

And don't even pull the originality argument.

It's a valid argument in the light of comparisons between this and other Abridged series.

I want something to not insult my senses with HEY HEY HEY YOU REMEMBER HOW LIKE LIKE YOU HATE DRAGONBALL GT? and actually just give me jokes.

And when exactly has Abridged ever done that? I'm honestly not remembering a single instance of humor like that in regards to GT or anything else, but I admit, my memory is faulty and I could be overlooking something on this one. Regardless though, that doesn't seem to be it's main brand of humor, at all, so...

Look, I'm in no way trying to say that everyone has to enjoy the same things - that'd get boring quick. But this holier than thou, 'EVERYTHING HAS TO MEET MY STANDARDS OR IT IS WORTHLESS' schtick is one that just gets old, and fast. I repeat, and maybe it's just me, but if one doesn't like something, what is so hard about saying so and...moving on? It's the same issue I had with another member previously, whom seemed to enjoy nothing but reiterating how much they hated DBZ now. If you don't enjoy something, why devote so much energy into it? Do/Watch/Read something you do like, and let the people that enjoy the thing you don't, enjoy it.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I want something to not insult my senses with HEY HEY HEY YOU REMEMBER HOW LIKE LIKE YOU HATE DRAGONBALL GT? and actually just give me jokes.

And when exactly has Abridged ever done that? I'm honestly not remembering a single instance of humor like that in regards to GT

We had the GT rap dropped on Namek in the mock-wrestling episode with Recoome, and there might have been something when Kanassa came back and they were all spouting spoilers. It was an example, point being that relying on your audience's assumed tastes, like GT, is not a creative act, its using audience assumptions to do your job for you. The other one he gave was probably easier to grasp; was the "Why is everyone fighting Piccolo?" joke made any funnier by "Except Yamcha?" when Yamcha's situation had already been a punch-line (in much more creative ways, in my eyes) several times this arc, let alone the series?

[KaiserNeko]

I want something to not insult my senses with HEY HEY HEY YOU REMEMBER HOW LIKE LIKE YOU HATE DRAGONBALL GT? and actually just give me jokes.

And when exactly has Abridged ever done that? I'm honestly not remembering a single instance of humor like that in regards to GT

We had the GT rap dropped on Namek in the mock-wrestling episode with Recoome, and there might have been something when Kanassa came back and they were all spouting spoilers. It was an example, point being that relying on your audience's assumed tastes, like GT, is not a creative act, its using audience assumptions to do your job for you. The other one he gave was probably easier to grasp; was the "Why is everyone fighting Piccolo?" joke made any funnier by "Except Yamcha?" when Yamcha's situation had already been a punch-line (in much more creative ways, in my eyes) several times this arc, let alone the series?

Does anyone even get that the joke with Vegeta is that he tried to play into the wrestling shtick, if only for a moment, only to be given a terrible theme(that, yes, was the GT rap, an almost universally despised piece of music)? The entirety of the joke isn't even about GT, it's about mocking Vegeta and, as an added bonus, it's a song most DragonBall fans are familiar with. If it were about mocking GT, we would have had it be Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku.

And the joke with Yamcha: No, the joke wasn't incredibly creative, but not every single joke is going to be as good as the last, or the next. I mean for crying out loud, even Mel Brooks padded a ton of his gold with silver and bronze. (Not comparing ourselves to Mel Brooks, just using him as an extreme example.)

I'm just a bit perturbed here that some people feel the need to be as condescending and harsh about this as ImmaDecker has been. I don't care if he doesn't enjoy our work, but the sort of wording and attitude he's used has been outright insulting. Especially considering the time and effort we put into each episode, how we try and work in such a limiting medium. I understand if it's not a person's cup of tea, but ultimately some of you have just been tearing into it to try and tell everyone why it's apparently objectively terrible when, ultimately, I don't understand why.

Edit: The main thing I think that bothers me is that... the main reason I even started the show in general is because I wanted to have fun with the series I grew up with. Poke some fun at it's flaws, play the big moments with some gravitas, toy around with some character traits. And over time, it grew, and while it's heavily flawed, we're always trying to make it better while still playing to the style we started with. We've worked so hard to eliminate references-as-jokes from the series that aren't, at the very least, directly tied into something DragonBall related, we've tried to flesh out characters and create arcs for them. We're always trying to improve, because god knows I LOVE making this series and so do the people I work with. When it comes to DragonBall Z, we know the writing isn't amazing, and the truth is we did that in part to ourselves by the limits both created and inherent to this style.

But we're not being lazy, even with the movies. If you wanted lazy, I assure you, it wouldn't take a month per episode for 9-12 minutes of material.

[dbzfan7]

If anything they've probably brought in more interest and fans. Kinda like how YGOTAS brought in more for Yu-Gi-Oh!, I think TFS did for Dragon Ball Z. I can't really prove it and I may be wrong, but I tend to find that if I really enjoy a parody, I want to find out what the source material is like.