The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kaboom]

100% Freeza vs Boo arc Vegeta (base)

Vegeta gets a whoopin' from Freeza. Not exactly a totally one-sided whoopin', but a whoopin' nonetheless.

[RandomGuy96]

He was still implied to be superior to Piccolo at that level after the ROSAT trip.

Don't remember any of that.

He didn't reveal his full power until the Cell Games, and openly planned on fighting Cell himself (as did Trunks and Vegeta, who believed they'd surpassed Goku) while calling Piccolo useless.

[rereboy]

He was still implied to be superior to Piccolo at that level after the ROSAT trip.

Don't remember any of that.

He didn't reveal his full power until the Cell Games, and openly planned on fighting Cell himself (as did Trunks and Vegeta, who believed they'd surpassed Goku) while calling Piccolo useless.

You specifically stated 50% Goku. Goku revealed his 50% before Piccolo went to ROSAT and it blew Piccolo's mind, but for all you know Piccolo could have caught up with that level or surpass it a bit after going to ROSAT, but was still useless because, obviously, Goku was still very superior at his 100%, which Goku obviously knew.

Piccolo at the Cell games could be at 58% Goku and Vegeta and Trunks at 70% Goku and there's nothing contradicting this, I believe.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo didn't know that Goku was at 50%, and he was still like "hey, I'm useless, aren't I?" when he came out. I don't think he would have that attitude if he was above the level Goku showed.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo didn't know that Goku was at 50%, and he was still like "hey, I'm useless, aren't I?" when he came out. I don't think he would have that attitude if he was above the level Goku showed.

This, pretty much. Piccolo immediately knew he was useless against Cell, while Goku and Vegeta were planning on fighting him alone. No one knew Goku's full power at this point, which is why Vegeta was confident he'd surpassed Goku and Cell, and why everyone was shocked when he powered up at the Cell Games.

[rereboy]

Piccolo didn't know that Goku was at 50%, and he was still like "hey, I'm useless, aren't I?" when he came out. I don't think he would have that attitude if he was above the level Goku showed.

That only makes sense if Piccolo assumes Goku's 50% to be all he can do. I see no reason for him to do that. He knows it was just a demonstration for Karin and knowing Goku, he has no reason to not at least suspect that Goku can do better than that. So, even if he thought he had surpassed a little the level that Goku had showed, if he suspects that Goku could do better than that, his conversation with Goku still makes perfect sense.

Heck, with the "godly eyes" ability that Piccolo apparently got from Kami, we can't even be sure that he didn't see what was happening at Karin's once Goku started to power-up and became aware that Goku was just using 50% when Goku told Karin exactly that.

So, in short, the idea that Piccolo is inferior to Goku's 50% after ROSAT only makes sense if Piccolo, for some reason, assumes that what Goku showed was his max. IMO, there's no real reason for that, and is, in fact, much more natural that he suspected that Goku could do even better.

(And this is all without even mentioning that what Piccolo actually said to Goku was that even with the power-up he didn't think he could beat Cell. Cell was the main term of comparison, not Goku. Previously, Goku asked Karin to confirm that he was weaker than Cell. That's not unlike what Piccolo did to Goku here, the difference is that Karin is obviously much weaker than Goku but that didn't stop Goku from asking a confirmation).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's irrelevant how much Goku was using according to Piccolo's guess. I think that if Piccolo was above Goku's 50%, which is the highest power they had ever felt, Piccolo would have at least some confidence that he could do something.

[rereboy]

It's irrelevant how much Goku was using according to Piccolo's guess. I think that if Piccolo was above Goku's 50%, which is the highest power they had ever felt, Piccolo would have at least some confidence that he could do something.

What? He knew that Cell was still much stronger that what Goku showed. That's what matters.

If he thought that what Goku showed was comparable to Cell's power, he would be happy and confident that Goku would manage to win. He did no such thing because he knew that Cell was much stronger.

Even Karin with the knowledge that what Goku showed was only half of his full power still thought that Goku couldn't win against Cell.

So exactly why would Piccolo be confident after achieving a level of power that he knows is still far from the necessary to defeat Cell? Maybe he would be confident if his opponent was Goku and if for some reason he assumed that what Goku showed was his max... But the enemy is Cell, not Goku, and he knows that Cell is far stronger than what Goku showed.

Piccolo didn't know that Goku was at 50%, and he was still like "hey, I'm useless, aren't I?" when he came out. I don't think he would have that attitude if he was above the level Goku showed.

This, pretty much. Piccolo immediately knew he was useless against Cell, while Goku and Vegeta were planning on fighting him alone. No one knew Goku's full power at this point, which is why Vegeta was confident he'd surpassed Goku and Cell, and why everyone was shocked when he powered up at the Cell Games.

That doesn't prove that Piccolo wasn't above 50% Goku after ROSAT. If Piccolo managed to achieve something like 58% Goku after ROSAT, he would only be a bit stronger than what Goku had showed Karin and Karin agreed with Goku that Cell was stronger than double of the power that Goku had showed him. Karin's sensing abilities are obviously not that much better than Piccolo's, so Piccolo would guess that 58% Goku was a level of power still not good enough to beat Cell. So, no reason to be confident.

[ZombieVito]

I have to agree with rereboy, nowhere is it implied that Piccolo is under 50% Goku.

I personally have them as equals.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

100% Freeza vs Boo arc Vegeta (base)

It had to be done.

I recall in the Battle of Gods movie that Base Goku could not stand a chance against Frieza in that current form. This was stated on King Kai's planet just before they began fighting.

That was the Japanese dub with Eng subtitles. I haven't seen the Funimation dub yet so I bet the lines I referenced are somewhat more accurate. So I put both base Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga around maybe 60,000,000. And then a few years later in Battle of Gods at 80,000,000 range, or a little higher.

[Doctor.]

100% Freeza vs Boo arc Vegeta (base)

It had to be done.

I recall in the Battle of Gods movie that Base Goku could not stand a chance against Freeza in that current form. This was stated on King Kai's planet just before they began fighting.

That was the Japanese dub with Eng subtitles. I haven't seen the Funimation dub yet so I bet the lines I referenced are somewhat more accurate. So I put both base Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga around maybe 60,000,000. And then a few years later in Battle of Gods at 80,000,000 range, or a little higher.

Goku could have been suppressed. It's what makes more sense, actually. If you go by BoG, it makes Yo! canon and in there Trunks and Goten fought Freeza level opponents.

Not to mention in the Boo arc, Vegeta was confident he could win the tournament without SSJ.

But I'm sure everyone has already debated this subject countless times without end.

[ZombieVito]

100% Freeza vs Boo arc Vegeta (base)

It had to be done.

I recall in the Battle of Gods movie that Base Goku could not stand a chance against Freeza in that current form. This was stated on King Kai's planet just before they began fighting.

That was the Japanese dub with Eng subtitles. I haven't seen the Funimation dub yet so I bet the lines I referenced are somewhat more accurate. So I put both base Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga around maybe 60,000,000. And then a few years later in Battle of Gods at 80,000,000 range, or a little higher.

Goku could have been suppressed. It's what makes more sense, actually. If you go by BoG, it makes Yo! canon and in there Trunks and Goten fought Freeza level opponents.

Not to mention in the Boo arc, Vegeta was confident he could win the tournament without SSJ.

But I'm sure everyone has already debated this subject countless times without end.

Or you can go with the manga version of Yo! AT himself thinks it's superior anyway.

[RandomGuy96]

100% Freeza vs Boo arc Vegeta (base)

It had to be done.

I recall in the Battle of Gods movie that Base Goku could not stand a chance against Freeza in that current form. This was stated on King Kai's planet just before they began fighting.

That was the Japanese dub with Eng subtitles. I haven't seen the Funimation dub yet so I bet the lines I referenced are somewhat more accurate. So I put both base Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga around maybe 60,000,000. And then a few years later in Battle of Gods at 80,000,000 range, or a little higher.

Goku could have been suppressed. It's what makes more sense, actually. If you go by BoG, it makes Yo! canon and in there Trunks and Goten fought Freeza level opponents.

Not to mention in the Boo arc, Vegeta was confident he could win the tournament without SSJ.

But I'm sure everyone has already debated this subject countless times without end.

Doubt it. Goku never contradicted Beerus, even though he has no problem doing that when people are wrong about his power, the film never contradicts him anywhere, and Kaio outright says Beerus is correct.

Using that as evidence of base saiyans > Freeza requires a LOT of assumptions, like:
-Vegeta would actually honor Gohan's request, rather than just saying that to shut him up.
-Piccolo/18 would go all-out against the saiyans.
-The base saiyans are stronger than Piccolo.
Not to mention that Future Trunks was still weaker than the future androids in base (even though those androids are far weaker than the present ones), base Goten/Trunks rivaled the adults yet were far weaker than 18, Piccolo was implied to be not that far off from the Super Saiyans at the Cell Games, etc.

Tarble was talking about 1st form Freeza. That's the form he pictured in the manga, and the only one he logically could have seen.

[Doctor.]

Doubt it. Goku never contradicted Beerus, even though he has no problem doing that when people are wrong about his power, the film never contradicts him anywhere, and Kaio outright says Beerus is correct.

Goku was trying not to anger Beerus, remember? Goku is usually always suppressed. Against Nappa and Vegeta, against the Ginyu Toukusentai, after he came out of the RoSaT. Even before battle powers were introduced, he was suppressed in the 22nd and 23rd tournaments and against Piccolo Daimao. Wouldn't make sense for him to be showing all of his full power.

Plus, Kaio could be saying Beerus is correct when it comes to the part of "It seems you power up by turning Super Saiyan".

Using that as evidence of base saiyans > Freeza requires a LOT of assumptions, like:
-Vegeta would actually honor Gohan's request, rather than just saying that to shut him up.

Vegeta would have just said no.

-Piccolo/18 would go all-out against the saiyans.

Why wouldn't they? Especially 18. She wanted the money.

-The base saiyans are stronger than Piccolo.

Which could be the case. Why else would Dabura spit on Piccolo and yet leave the base saiyans alive? Or why would Piccolo be pushed back by Goten and Trunks' SSJ power while Goku wasn't?

With the introduction of Godly Ki, you don't necessarily have to believe that Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin anymore.

Not to mention that Future Trunks was still weaker than the future androids in base (even though those androids are far weaker than the present ones), base Goten/Trunks rivaled the adults yet were far weaker than 18, Piccolo was implied to be not that far off from the Super Saiyans at the Cell Games, etc.

True, but I never said that they were stronger than Freeza in the Cell Games.

Goten and Trunks gave 18 a good match, actually. I doubt that would happen if their power was around 530.000 each.

Tarble was talking about 1st form Freeza. That's the form he pictured in the manga, and the only one he logically could have seen.

And Goku was picturing Final Form Freeza, since it's the one he fought. If Abo and Cado were weaker, he would have said something or before they arrived he would have told Goten and Trunks to go SSJ.

[Kaboom]

The thing about the whole "the character is heavily suppressed and the people sensing him have no idea" trend in Dragon Ball is that it's always eventually revealed to be the case. As long as it factors into the fights and story, we're never left wondering if a character was suppressed or not.

The suppressed character will suddenly start kicking butt, or just purposely power up to demonstrate. The character will declare that they haven't revealed their full power yet, and then usually proceed to do so. Another side character who knows the truth will comment. Or whatever. Something always happens to correct the mistaken judgement about the suppressed person's power.

But there was no such contradiction in Battle of Gods. You've got Beerus saying, "you couldn't beat Freeza [in base], but you gain more power by going Super Saiyan," and then Goku/Kaio saying, "yep, that's correct."

If that weren't really the case, wouldn't someone have said so? Wouldn't Goku have at least thought to himself, "I've actually gotten way stronger since then?" Wouldn't Goku maybe have bragged and said, "I'm already way stronger than Freeza without Super Saiyan now, so wait 'til you see how strong I am WITH it," when he was showing off for Beerus before they fought? After Goku was beaten, couldn't Kaio have easily remarked about how Goku was far stronger than Beerus thought he was, but was still no match for him? Shoot, all the way back when Whis was first showing Goku's fight with Freeza to Beerus, couldn't he have said, "they've all mastered a technique to increase their power called Super Saiyan, though they've now become so strong they could beat Freeza even without it?"

But no, none of those things happened. If the line was meant to be false, then there were tons of opportunities to set things straight, but none were taken. There is no indication whatsoever within the film that Beerus was mistaken in his analysis of non-SS Goku's power. If one just assumes that it's false anyway, then without that later revelation or anything else actually telling us that it is, the line becomes pointless. It has no purpose even existing unless it's true.

The line means what it means. If someone doesn't like it because it doesn't mesh with their interpretation of the manga, or it would force them to re-work their personal power levels lists, or something... then fine, whatever. Ignore the line, ignore the entire movie too if you want. But don't try to twist the line around or undermine it.

[Doctor.]

The thing is that BoG makes Yo! canon. And Yo! directly contradicts that statement entirely.

If you choose to believe that Abo and Cado were as strong as first form Freeza, then that makes both Trunks and Goten around those levels, according to the anime special (and it's the one I use, since it's the original version). And Goten and Trunks were said and portrayed to have been around the adults level.

[VegettoEX]

The thing is that BoG makes Yo! canon. And Yo! directly contradicts that statement entirely.

Battle of Gods has enough production quirks that someone can be reasonably expected to consider it non-canonical if they want to. Furthermore, Tarble's existence being mentioned in the movie does not inherently make the 2008 JSAT Special canonical exactly as-is; it could just be that the idea of Tarble is canonical to that story.

See: "Dragon Ball Minus", which in retrospect keeps Bardock canonical to the manga as he always was, but disregards the entire Bardock TV special. It's an exact case of "this raw idea is canonical; the entire events that you saw are not".

[KentalSSJ6]

I think i'll just save that little bit Kaboom and proceed to spread it around certain youtube videos like the bubonic plague.

[Doctor.]

The thing is that BoG makes Yo! canon. And Yo! directly contradicts that statement entirely.

Battle of Gods has enough production quirks that someone can be reasonably expected to consider it non-canonical if they want to. Furthermore, Tarble's existence being mentioned in the movie does not inherently make the 2008 JSAT Special canonical exactly as-is; it could just be that the idea of Tarble is canonical to that story.

See: "Dragon Ball Minus", which in retrospect keeps Bardock canonical to the manga as he always was, but disregards the entire Bardock TV special. It's an exact case of "this raw idea is canonical; the entire events that you saw are not".

True, but until an alternative version of Tarble is shown, we only have to assume that the Yo! version was being taken into account in that particular scene.

[ZombieVito]

I love how my comment was ignored haha.

The manga for Yo! doesn't contradict a thing. Goten and Trunks one shot Avo and Cado and they merge right after that.

@KentalSSJ6: Ditto.