True. In a movie. Made by Toei Animation. Written by Yusuke Watanabe. Supervised by a Toriyama that forgot about Tao and SSJ2. And while I do trust Toriyama for the most part, in my eyes, Beerus' statement goes completely against everything else shown in the manga.
You're shifting your position. At first, it was "BOG doesn't say this". Now it's "BOG does say this, but BOG doesn't mean anything".
Not really, Vegeta isn't that much of a liar. He might have done that in a fight against Goku, but not against anyone else.
Is Vegeta known for being extremely honest? Do you have any proof he'd actually follow through, or that 18 would even bother fighting Vegeta rather than just forfeiting the match due to the conclusion being foregone, and her clearly fearing Vegeta's power in the Cell arc?
And they wouldn't be so confident if there was such a big gap between them.
It doesn't matter what the gap was; the point is, they thought they were stronger, but they weren't. This doesn't prove ANYTHING except that this particular base saiyans > other fighters 'implication' turned out to be wrong.
And yet again, MSSJ Goku > both, so what's the problem?
Because the gaps aren't that large.
No he's not. Trunks got to around 50% MSSJ Goku's strength level at best.
No, Trunks is confirmed as stronger than 50% SS Goku (he was equal to Vegeta and the Cell Juniors, and Vegeta stated he had surpassed Goku while still thinking that was his full power), while Goku was far weaker than suppressed Cell, who was far weaker than SS Gohan.
But for Trunks to one shot 18 as a SSJ he would need to be massively above base Goku on Namek. Sure, 3 million compared to 120 million is a huge gap. But let's say Trunks' base power was 50 million, which seems like a really low end, since they weren't knocked out in one hit from 18. He would still have the ROSAT training where they improved massively and they still weren't no match to the adult Saiyans.
Of course Trunks is much stronger than Namek Goku. What, exactly, does this have to do with base saiyans vs Freeza?
Yes it is indeed relevant. If the wording is wrong and the sentence doesn't make sense, odds are the translation is incorrect.
The wording is fine, and there's nothing wrong with the translation. It's not the only guidebook that states this, either. Daizenshuu 4 does also.
And yes it does, Vegeta states multiple times that Gohan got weaker. Goku stated the same thing.
Gohan got weaker only in the sense that he could no longer draw power from his rage, making him weaker as a SS2, but giving him the same strength in SS/base.
Why would 18 not use her full power is she wanted to win? She would just sufficient power to knock them out and not kill them. But she didn't. Why? Well, she couldn't?
She had been told to hold back, and didn't know exactly how strong this person was. She has trouble controlling how much she holds back, so it wouldn't be surprising that she'd avoid using full power to avoid an "accident".
Also, even when she still thought Mighty Mask was a completely regular human, she still hit him with enough force to affect fighters in the tens of millions. So either 18 suddenly decided to kill a guy and get disqualified for no reason, or Toriyama didn't care about determining exactly how much power a character was using at any given time, and the base Goten/Trunks vs 18 section of the fight wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
Because perhaps his kid's life was on the line? He would want to know how strong the opponent would be before telling him to go.
His kid's life would be in no danger. Even if Tarble was improbably referring to 100% Mecha Freeza, the strongest version ever, Goten could just sense that power, turn Super Saiyan, and easily one-shot Abo and Cado at the same time.
The manga was drawn by Naho Ooishi and normally what comes first is what's canon.
Please provide proof that the manga version of this special is "less canon" than the anime version.
Mecha Freeza was a form he could have seen.
Yeah, 3% Mecha Freeza. He'd have no reason to show any more power. Though that being the form he's thinking of is very unlikely, given that he explicitly pictures 1st form Freeza in the manga version.
And his exact words were "They're as strong as Freeza was".
Yet, you just said he said they were
stronger than Freeza. Moving on:
I highly doubt Trunks and Goten are around 530.000 in battle power, so final form is what's left.
Goten and Trunks one-shotted Abo and Cado in the manga. No problem here.
And there's a problem if he is indeed referring to first form, seeing as how in the anime version, they all had a somewhat fair match.
In the manga version, they didn't. Since both versions of the special are basically in the same standing as far as "canon" is concerned, but Toriyama prefers the manga, we can safely be sure that that's the 'version' that 'happened'. The anime version could just apply to the anime continuity, where anyone can put up a fight against anyone else.
And Vegeta said Trunks would be enough for both of them also.
Because Freeza is nothing at this point. Trunks could kill a hundred 1st form Freezas alone in base. In Super Saiyan, he could kill a hundred 100% Freezas. What is this meant to prove?
Because most of Freeza's minions had a chance to see Mecha Freeza?
That changes nothing about what I just said. Base Mecha Freeza is not 100% Freeza. Freeza, at 3% of his final form's power, was already so ridiculously strong that no one could ever do the tiniest bit of damage to him, except for his father. Why would Goku assume he would show any more power than that? Why would it even matter if he did?
And no way are Goten and Trunks as weak as 530.000 from what the anime showed us.
The anime is irrelevant.
If you want to continue this, start a new thread for it.
