Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Kai.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
kei17
I Live Here
Posts: 3952
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:23 am
Location: DB's Birthplace
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by kei17 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:20 am

Black_Liger wrote:
kei17 wrote:I FULLY agree with TheBlackPaladin and MagicBox. Vegeta's sacrifice was poorly done. I hate it even more than the disco shit in Goku's return. Absolutely the worst choice in the Buu arc so far.

In Z, M1615 playing while Vegeta's last moment represents his painful preparation, regret, and the great tension of the scene, and the weird, yet beautiful silence after that always makes me feel his life mercilessly burning up in the explosion. It gives me chills so badly.

On the other hand, Kai is a total fail. The obtrusively "emotional" track destroys Vegeta's own feelings and it focuses only on the brave side of his decision from third person point of view. It even drowns out Krillin's moving scream. It's just... fucking WRONG.

I have nothing against the track itself. It just doesn't work here.
You guys are being far too harsh on the placement of this week :lol:
Too harsh? No. I would have insulted the staff like hell if it's not the Kanzenshuu forum. Vegeta's sacrifice is one of the most important scenes in the Buu arc, or the series itself. I can't accept a so-so or passable job here. This is the goddamn very point that should be done properly. "It will improve later" or "they unfortunately missed it this time" kind of excuse doesn't work anymore. They've already missed the point.
My Website: World DBZ
My blog: Red Ribbon Army Japan Base
penguintruth wrote:Gohan: "You differently skilled, but fully functional member of society whose IQ doesn't quite meet societal standards but is no less a beautiful creature for having lived in this universe... who happened to kill my mother and friends."

User avatar
Black_Liger
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 am

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:34 am

kei17 wrote:
Black_Liger wrote:
kei17 wrote:I FULLY agree with TheBlackPaladin and MagicBox. Vegeta's sacrifice was poorly done. I hate it even more than the disco shit in Goku's return. Absolutely the worst choice in the Buu arc so far.

In Z, M1615 playing while Vegeta's last moment represents his painful preparation, regret, and the great tension of the scene, and the weird, yet beautiful silence after that always makes me feel his life mercilessly burning up in the explosion. It gives me chills so badly.

On the other hand, Kai is a total fail. The obtrusively "emotional" track destroys Vegeta's own feelings and it focuses only on the brave side of his decision from third person point of view. It even drowns out Krillin's moving scream. It's just... fucking WRONG.

I have nothing against the track itself. It just doesn't work here.
You guys are being far too harsh on the placement of this week :lol:
Too harsh? No. I would have insulted the staff like hell if it's not the Kanzenshuu forum. Vegeta's sacrifice is one of the most important scenes in the Buu arc, or the series itself. I can't accept a so-so or passable job here. This is the goddamn very point that should be done properly. "It will improve later" or "they unfortunately missed it this time" kind of excuse doesn't work anymore. They've already missed the point.

Also, to be honest, I'm tired of you praising and defending Sumitomo without any logical reasons.
I can tell you a whole lot of things I'm tired, but I don't wanna be an asshole. I didn't come down on your opinion, and I actually playfully told you we atleast agreed on one thing. I do get your opinion as I didn't bash it so your "To be honest" comment is rather rude And..

"Without any logical reasons"

I give you one, I like it. Should be enough to defend it?. Because not liking it seems to be enough to blast it with curses and anger.
There's room for only one snake, and one big boss.

User avatar
sangofe
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6442
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:39 pm

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by sangofe » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:19 am

kei17 wrote:I FULLY agree with TheBlackPaladin and MagicBox. Vegeta's sacrifice was poorly done. I hate it even more than the disco shit in Goku's return. Absolutely the worst choice in the Buu arc so far.

In Z, M1615 playing while Vegeta's last moment represents his painful preparation, regret, and the great tension of the scene, and the weird, yet beautiful silence after that always makes me feel his life mercilessly burning up in the explosion. It gives me chills so badly.

On the other hand, Kai is a total fail. The obtrusively "emotional" track destroys Vegeta's own feelings and it focuses only on the brave side of his decision from third person point of view. It even drowns out Krillin's moving scream. It's just... fucking WRONG.

I have nothing against the track itself. It just doesn't work here.
I fully agree.

User avatar
TheRed259
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1200
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:26 am

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by TheRed259 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:17 am

Sumitomo's version is way better than both Kikuchi and Faulconer here. To be fair, I was expecting to hear an insert song for this scene but as it seems they don't use them anymore.

The track is sad but triumphant as well and shows the greatness of Vegeta's soul .Vegeta can take the Earth's fate in his hand without having Goku around. He just wanted for once to be the one who is gonna save the Earth. Vegeta could never forgive Goku for saving him from Cell. He wanted to take his pride back and he did it by sacrificing himself so that he and Goku can be even.

What I fear is that this may be not the original International Version since they don't use soundtracks from Battle of Gods in that version (as far as I know) and here in Episode 120 we just heard one once again. I hope I am wrong...

User avatar
Ajay
Moderator
Posts: 6089
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 6:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Ajay » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:19 am

My initial reaction.

I definitely agree with MagicBox, Kei17 and TheBlackPaladin. It's a good piece of music and it's definitely a standout track amongst Sumitomo's work thus far in the show but it is a one-dimensional choice that limits the scene to a singular emotion.

I don't think I can put it better than MagicBox already has - it's just far too triumphant. To me, it feels like the type of music you'd find in a big death scene in Final Fantasy. It's steeped in melodrama and doesn't really let the audience consider the moment. It just tells you exactly how to feel and that's that.

The original is absolutely monumental. It gives you a moment to fully realise what Vegeta intends to do and then it strips away the music leaving the magnitude of Horikawa's scream to ring out before being engulfed by his own explosion. It is absolutely tragic and so incredibly haunting.

Compare the two and I hope you can at least see where we're coming from with this line of thinking. I know many of you may just pass this off as another 'Oh, they'll hate Kai no matter what'. That's really not the case.

As I said, it's a good track and it's not that it's misplaced per se. It's certainly the type of emotional track you put with a death scene but it feels wrong, limiting and...obvious, I guess. It doesn't really consider the overall scene but rather feels like someone went 'this is emotional so this track will work'.

At least it wasn't anything like this.
Follow me on Twitter for countless shitposts.

Deadtuber.

User avatar
thomas1up
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:51 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by thomas1up » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:39 am

I compared the sacrifice scene between the Original and Kai and I think the silence works a lot better, the music in Kai just feels like... it's trying to hard? It sounds too epic and triumphant and they also removing Boo's disturbing scream which was really chilling in the original.

Not bad but not great either.
thomas1up are fuckin terrible and need to fuck off asap all the other noobs are decent thouhg
-Anon-Kun 2014 <3

User avatar
Cold Skin
I Live Here
Posts: 2238
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: France

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Cold Skin » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:40 am

Perfect episode.
The best so far.

They didn't use the track I thought they would use (this one was instead wonderfully applied to Vegeta and Piccolo's final talk).
But the track they used is perfect to make it the greatest and most beautiful moment it is so far in the saga, it's the triumphant redemption of the Prince and the achievement of his warrior life.

I'm glad that whoever places the music understood what the moment is all about and chose the right track to guide the viewers into what they're supposed to feel with this epic death and sadly beautiful attack.
The rest of the episode was perfect too, no waste of time, every moment is interesting, Piccolo is stylish, Vegeta is stylish...

Perfect episode for the end of a season/pack, as the next one opens a new page in the plot with characters we haven't seen (or at least being unconscious and therefore inactive for some of them) for a while.
Thank you Kai for magnifying that big scene like never before. :thumbup:

User avatar
ShinGaijin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:59 am
Location: France/Japan/Hong Kong
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by ShinGaijin » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:14 am

People are so divided once again :lol: it's crazy.
Critics are understandable after all, a so iconic scene, it would obviously dissatisfying some people.It reminds me the "Yamamoto score - Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2" case.
TheRed259 wrote:Sumitomo's version is way better than both Kikuchi and Faulconer here
I agree.Although I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi's works, I've always been disappointed in the way this scene was handled in the original japanese version.To be honest, my favorite version so far was the Faulconer's one - and believe me, 70~80% of his works are pieces of trash in my eyes.
No one mentioned the Ocean/Westwood dub music ? Probably because this is the worst version :lol:.I always feel sorry for Mitchell & Keenlyside when I'm watching it.The guy who was in charge of music placement was probably drunk that day... :thumbdown:

User avatar
dbboxkaifan
Banned
Posts: 8906
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:32 pm

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by dbboxkaifan » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:13 am

ShinGaijin wrote:To be honest, my favorite version so far was the Faulconer's one - and believe me, 70~80% of his works are pieces of trash in my eyes.
His? The Faulconer group was composed of four musicians Bruce, Mike, Julius and Morgan so regardless that the American DBZ score was never properly handled there's still credit to be given. It'd be cool if FUNimation went back and reworked on the music placements of Faulconer for Z (or Kai) but it's just too late for it now.
FUNimation 2015 Releases I want:
- Kai 2.0 on Blu-ray

User avatar
ShinGaijin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:59 am
Location: France/Japan/Hong Kong
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by ShinGaijin » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:10 pm

dbboxkaifan wrote:His? The Faulconer group was composed of four musicians Bruce, Mike, Julius and Morgan so regardless that the American DBZ score was never properly handled there's still credit to be given.
Four musicians ? I knew that Scott Morgan has worked with Bruce Faulconer, but for the others, I didn't know, until now.Thanks for the info. :thumbup:
dbboxkaifan wrote:It'd be cool if FUNimation went back and reworked on the music placements of Faulconer for Z (or Kai) but it's just too late for it now.
:D Yeah, unfortunately, as you said, it'll never happen.A modern, proper music placement, combined to the new english dub, I'd be curious to see that.

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3545
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:19 pm

Let me pose this question, for fun's sake (and I ask this question as somebody who agrees that the music, while good, was misplaced)...

Where would that music fit? In Kai, I mean. What triumphant moment in the Buu arc would justify that music? I'm having trouble thinking of one myself...it has got to fit somewhere--and it should be placed somewhere, because the track in and of itself is quite good--but my mind's drawing a blank.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
ShinGaijin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:59 am
Location: France/Japan/Hong Kong
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by ShinGaijin » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:26 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:Let me pose this question, for fun's sake (and I ask this question as somebody who agrees that the music, while good, was misplaced)...
Where would that music fit? In Kai, I mean. What triumphant moment in the Buu arc would justify that music? I'm having trouble thinking of one myself...it has got to fit somewhere--and it should be placed somewhere, because the track in and of itself is quite good--but my mind's drawing a blank.
"Spirit Bomb Triumphant", of course ! Spirit Bomb® is a registered trademark of Toei Animation and FUNimation in the United States and other countries. :? SORRY.

User avatar
JEFFMAN219
Regular
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:55 pm

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by JEFFMAN219 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:57 pm

Wow Kai did this scene way more better the original Japanese version of Z. The music that was played when Vegeta sacrificed himself was perfect.

User avatar
thomas1up
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:51 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by thomas1up » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:59 pm

JEFFMAN219 wrote:Wow Kai did this scene way more better the original Japanese version of Z. The music that was played when Vegeta sacrificed himself was perfect.
I dunno, the track started off sounding pretty good but when the trumpets kicked in and it got more triumphant it kinda got sucky.


Still a good piece of music and much better than some other scenes..... DISCO BALL KAI
thomas1up are fuckin terrible and need to fuck off asap all the other noobs are decent thouhg
-Anon-Kun 2014 <3

User avatar
JEFFMAN219
Regular
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:55 pm

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by JEFFMAN219 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:04 pm

ShinGaijin wrote:People are so divided once again :lol: it's crazy.
Critics are understandable after all, a so iconic scene, it would obviously dissatisfying some people.It reminds me the "Yamamoto score - Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2" case.
TheRed259 wrote:Sumitomo's version is way better than both Kikuchi and Faulconer here
I agree.Although I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi's works, I've always been disappointed in the way this scene was handled in the original japanese version.To be honest, my favorite version so far was the Faulconer's one - and believe me, 70~80% of his works are pieces of trash in my eyes.
No one mentioned the Ocean/Westwood dub music ? Probably because this is the worst version :lol:.I always feel sorry for Mitchell & Keenlyside when I'm watching it.The guy who was in charge of music placement was probably drunk that day... :thumbdown:
Lool you mean this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyILqP80gEA

User avatar
ShinGaijin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:59 am
Location: France/Japan/Hong Kong
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by ShinGaijin » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:45 pm

This is precisely what I mean, yes :lol:.The problem -IMO- is the second track, starting at 1:10.it literally RUINS everything...what a shame, the rest was pretty good - given the lack of tracks available at that time.

User avatar
MagicBox
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:09 pm
Location: On The Forums... Duh!
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by MagicBox » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:52 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:Where would that music fit? In Kai, I mean.
I like to think that it might have worked well during the sequence in which Goku convinces Gohan to stand up against Cell's Kamehame-ha, but I dunno. The arrangement of the piece still feels too "big." I guess that comes back to my common complaint that the Takaki/Yamamoto/Sumitomo music just doesn't feel like it belongs in Dragon Ball. If the same composition were rearranged with the familiar instruments, I might think differently.
"Magic's Detective Agency" - The Ultimate Guide to Changes in Detective Conan

"Magic's DiGiMONMUSiC Database" - The Ultimate Guide to Digimon CDs

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3545
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:28 pm

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it...what about as a concluding piece, for the very last episode when Goku flies off with Uub? I could see it working there.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
Ajay
Moderator
Posts: 6089
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 6:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Ajay » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:41 pm

MagicBox wrote: I like to think that it might have worked well during the sequence in which Goku convinces Gohan to stand up against Cell's Kamehame-ha, but I dunno. The arrangement of the piece still feels too "big." I guess that comes back to my common complaint that the Takaki/Yamamoto/Sumitomo music just doesn't feel like it belongs in Dragon Ball. If the same composition were rearranged with the familiar instruments, I might think differently.
I actually kinda like it when the score plays up the spectacle side of the show. As long as it's appropriate, I don't think it's massive detriment to the overall quality. It's certainly different but I think it's perfectly capable of working so long as it actually fits whats being shown on screen or felt by the characters. That's where I feel many of these scores fail. They're far too surface level in their placement and I think that's a real testament to the quality of the staff working on the original show.

There's a lot of spectacle in the series and I quite liked Yamamoto and Takaki for playing up that side of the series. Heck, even Sumitomo did a pretty stellar job in Battle of Gods. While it'll probably never ever reach above the pre-established feel of Dragon Ball set by Kikuchi; I don't think that should necessarily limit what other tones can work with the show too.

When Yamamoto was handled well, I though he did an absolutely great job of giving a new take to the series (despite ripping off a bajillion composers). For example, the Yamamoto placement during Goku's Kaioken Kamehamaha retains a similar feel to what Kikuchi's score had in the original. They're both triumphant sounding that build into something larger. Personally, I find both work equally as well despite one being far 'bigger' than the other.

Regarding the track used during Vegeta's sacrifice; I do agree with ShinGaijin, I think the final Genki Dama call for power against Boo could work. In fact, I'd be very surprised if we didn't hear this again during that moment.

Anyway, now that this moment is out of the way. What's the next big one we can (not) look forward to?!
Follow me on Twitter for countless shitposts.

Deadtuber.

User avatar
Black_Liger
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:26 am

Re: Kai Episode 120 (07 September 2014)

Post by Black_Liger » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:20 pm

Watching the episode again, this is my favorite take on the scene ever, I mean, Vegeta's resolve is freaking enhanced by the piece of music, he accepts his destiny as a soul who is destined to neither heaven nor hell, he accepts his destiny fully, the music really shows that, he IS happy, this is the ultimate change of heart for the prince of saiyans, his final chance for redemption! the thriumphant music also makes it seem as THE END type of scenario which makes for a more rude awakening in the next episode where buu is shown to be alive. Too bad the NEPS are plagued by spoilers e.e
There's room for only one snake, and one big boss.

Post Reply