The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dbgtFO]

By that logic, Bojack is stronger than Super Perfect Cell.

Yes, that is indeed what I'm saying.

But SP Cell was about as strong as SS2 Gohan, while Bojack was nowhere near him.

I don't see the problem, Cell and Gohan didn't have a proper battle and for all we know Gohan might be stronger than he was against Cell.

[RandomGuy96]

By that logic, Bojack is stronger than Super Perfect Cell.

Yes, that is indeed what I'm saying.

Nonsense. Cell casually crippled Gohan with one ki blast, while Bojack was crippled with one punch from Gohan. Even regular Perfect Cell has better feats than Bojack does (he took a gut shot without getting impaled on Gohan's arm). Putting Bojack that high doesn't seem to have anything supporting it. By this logic, Bio-Broly > M10 Broly >>> Super Perfect Cell, Pure Buu > Buuhan, and Pui Pui > Cell, among other things.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Bio-Broly > M10 Broly >>> Super Perfect Cell

This isn't necessarily wrong. Normal Bio-Men were stronger than normal humans, so Bio-Broli should be stronger than normal Broli.
As for Cell, he was around Gohan's level, while Gohan was trash against Broli. So, Broli is most likely stronger than Cell.

[RandomGuy96]

Bio-Broly > M10 Broly >>> Super Perfect Cell

This isn't necessarily wrong. Normal Bio-Men were stronger than normal humans, so Bio-Broli should be stronger than normal Broli.
As for Cell, he was around Gohan's level, while Gohan was trash against Broli. So, Broli is most likely stronger than Cell.

Except LSS Bio-Broly had trouble with Goten and Trunks, while regular SS Broly in M10 effortlessly beat them.

Cell was around the level of enraged kid SS2 Gohan. Broly wasn't extremely far off from a much weaker version. I'd say that Cell is stronger than Broly, or at least around the same strength, as I can't see SS2 Goku (who rivals SS2 kid Gohan) having any trouble with SS2 teen Gohan, or getting overpowered by SS2 teen Gohan + pre-ROSAT SS Goten. Broly really has nothing putting him so high.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except LSS Bio-Broly had trouble with Goten and Trunks

Correct me if I'm wrong, but except for one point where Goten & Trunks rushed on Bio-Broli & launched a barrage of punches on one spot, ending it with a charged punch each, which caused Bio-Broli to vomit green shit, they couldn't do anything to him. They would hit him, and he wouldn't even move an inch.

Cell was around the level of enraged kid SS2 Gohan. Broly wasn't extremely far off from a much weaker version. I'd say that Cell is stronger than Broly, or at least around the same strength, as I can't see SS2 Goku (who rivals SS2 kid Gohan) having any trouble with SS2 teen Gohan, or getting overpowered by SS2 teen Gohan + pre-ROSAT SS Goten. Broly really has nothing putting him so high.

M10 SS2 Gohan probably had a rage boost. Neither did he get desperate for not being able to go full power, nor did Goku tell him to get angry at any point. He was also angry on Broli when he transformed because he saw everyone beaten up by Broli, and plus, the anime hadn't reached the point where Gohan had trouble to get a rage boost.

But even if Gohan doesn't have a rage boost, he was a complete trash against Broli. This isn't "not extremely far off" Gohan.

[RandomGuy96]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but except for one point where Goten & Trunks rushed on Bio-Broli & launched a barrage of punches on one spot, ending it with a charged punch each, which caused Bio-Broli to vomit green shit, they couldn't do anything to him. They would hit him, and he wouldn't even move an inch.

Nope, he did budge when they hit him, and he also grunted and seemed to get angry. That's about as much of a reaction as you could expect out of a slime monster that doesn't bleed or bruise. Those gut punches were just particularly devastating. Contrast SS Broly vs SS Goten and Trunks in movie 10. LSS Bio-Broly is clearly presented as being weaker than that version.

M10 SS2 Gohan probably had a rage boost. Neither did he get desperate for not being able to go full power, nor did Goku tell him to get angry at any point. He was also angry on Broli when he transformed because he saw everyone beaten up by Broli, and plus, the anime hadn't reached the point where Gohan had trouble to get a rage boost.

But even if Gohan doesn't have a rage boost, he was a complete trash against Broli. This isn't "not extremely far off" Gohan.

It was never even remotely implied that Gohan got rage-boosted, and we actually know for a fact that teen Gohan can't get rage boosts.

He landed hits on Broly that stunned/hurt him, budged him, and made him angry, managed to break out of his hold by overpowering him, and was still able to fight after getting hit several times. It also only took his SS2 form + SS Goten to overpower Broly's attack. He seems like a pretty clear counterpart to Super Perfect Cell. Goku also apparently beat him with just SS2 in movie 11.

If he was extremely far off from Gohan, he would have tanked his hits like nothing and killed him with one punch. Gohan also never would have been able to break his hold or overpower and kill him with just his attack + his brother's.

[dbgtFO]

Nonsense.

I'd imagine it would be by your reasoning.

Putting Bojack that high doesn't seem to have anything supporting it.

I know that full well. I just like to think that the next main villain is greater than the former.

By this logic, Bio-Broly > M10 Broly >>> Super Perfect Cell,

Actually that doesn't bother me.

Pure Buu > Buuhan,

It seemed like the anime ran with that, but I just keep it as suggested in the manga.

and Pui Pui > Cell, among other things.

Haha, that's just misinterpreting my logic. It's a requirement that the character is a main villain, like I implied in my first post on this subject, which Pui Pui is obviously not

[RandomGuy96]

I know that full well. I just like to think that the next main villain is greater than the former.

Why? Again, that'd make Pure Buu stronger than Buuhan. Bojack seems like a blatantly obvious stand-in for Perfect Cell (with inferior feats), while Broly is the SPC stand-in.

Actually that doesn't bother me.

That doesn't match anything we're shown.

It seemed like the anime ran with that, but I just keep it as suggested in the manga.

Other forms are shown and stated to be stronger even in the anime. And why apply that logic to Bojack and not the Buus? Pure Buu is one of the weakest incarnations, but he's also the last.

Haha, that's just misinterpreting my logic. It's a requirement that the character is a main villain, like I implied in my first post on this subject, which Pui Pui is obviously not

Applying this logic to the movies also gets you Abo and Cado > Buu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nope, he did budge when they hit him, and he also grunted and seemed to get angry. That's about as much of a reaction as you could expect out of a slime monster that doesn't bleed or bruise. Those gut punches were just particularly devastating. Contrast SS Broly vs SS Goten and Trunks in movie 10. LSS Bio-Broly is clearly presented as being weaker than that version.

He may had budged by some hits, but this didn't happen every time. I other instances, Bio-Broli was like a statue in front of them.

As for the SS Broli fight, it was shorter than the Bio-Broli fight. I'll have to watch the fights again, but then again, the anime in general is very inconsistent at displaying the gaps between fighters. For example, the both the base Saiyans and the Super Saiyans caused trouble to the M7 Artificial Humans, even though there is a massive difference between these forms. So, unlike with the manga, I wouldn't pay extreme attention to the fights, and focus just on the main thing: SS Broli & Bio-Broli were both way stronger than SS Goten & Trunks, and based on the other Bio-Warriors, Bio-Broli must be stronger than Broli.

It was never even remotely implied that Gohan got rage-boosted, and we actually know for a fact that teen Gohan can't get rage boosts.

Like I said, we didn't know for a fact that Gohan couldn't get rage boosts at that point yet.

And like I also said, if Gohan didn't have a rage boost, wouldn't he at least try to get angry like he did against Boo's Ball? Or wouldn't Goku tell him to get angry like he did before leaving him to fight Vegeta?

He landed hits on Broly that budged him and made him angry, managed to break out of his hold by overpowering him, and was still able to fight after getting hit several times. It also only took his SS2 form + SS Goten to overpower Broly's attack. He seems like a pretty clear counterpart to Super Perfect Cell.

Gohan could only do what you said: annoy him. He couldn't scratch him in the least, and he was beaten up after fighting for a few seconds, with Gohan realizing that he would die soon if he couldn't use the lava to kill him.

And it didn't just take SS2 Gohan + SS Goten to overpower him, they also needed SS(2?) Goku's help, and Trunks' ki blast to distract Broli, and their Kamehameha wasn't even strong enough to break his barrier, they had to throw him to the Sun to kill him.

[RandomGuy96]

He may had budged by some hits, but this didn't happen every time. I other instances, Bio-Broli was like a statue in front of them.

As for the SS Broli fight, it was shorter than the Bio-Broli fight. I'll have to watch the fights again, but then again, the anime in general is very inconsistent at displaying the gaps between fighters. For example, the both the base Saiyans and the Super Saiyans caused trouble to the M7 Artificial Humans, even though there is a massive difference between these forms. So, unlike with the manga, I wouldn't pay extreme attention to the fights, and focus just on the main thing: SS Broli & Bio-Broli were both way stronger than SS Goten & Trunks, and based on the other Bio-Warriors, Bio-Broli must be stronger than Broli.

Nothing suggests EVERY bio warrior has to be stronger than the original, so no, I won't ignore what they actually did on-screen.

Like I said, we didn't know for a fact that Gohan couldn't get rage boosts at that point yet.

And like I also said, if Gohan didn't have a rage boost, wouldn't he at least try to get angry like he did against Boo's Ball? Or wouldn't Goku tell him to get angry like he did before leaving him to fight Vegeta?

And nothing in this film implies he got a rage boost at all. We also don't know that the anime staff didn't know. This wouldn't be the first time the anime staff got extra information in advance.

In-universe, he probably did try to power up that way, it just didn't work.

Gohan could only do what you said: annoy him. He couldn't scratch him in the least, and he was beaten up after fighting for a few seconds, with Gohan realizing that he would die soon if he couldn't use the lava to kill him.

He could still hurt and stun Broly, and break his hold. If you can do that to someone as well as fly at a comparable speed to them and survive their hits, you aren't extremely far off from them by DB standards.

And it didn't just take SS2 Gohan + SS Goten to overpower him, they also needed SS(2?) Goku's help, and Trunks' ki blast to distract Broli, and their Kamehameha wasn't even strong enough to break his barrier, they had to throw him to the Sun to kill him.

No, they definitely broke his barrier. He didn't burn to death, he got a hole torn through his chest.

Goku wasn't even there. No dragon + he already died + he didn't use SS3 (which he could have had he been there). And all Trunks' attack did was distract Broly for a moment so he could get overwhelmed. Like Cell.

[Kamiccolo9]

I've said this before, but I see no problem with Bio-Broly being created stronger than regular Broly.

But after he gets all sludged up, I don't see that incarnation matching his previous self.

[dbgtFO]

Why? Again, that'd make Pure Buu stronger than Buuhan. Bojack seems like a blatantly obvious stand-in for Perfect Cell (with inferior feats), while Broly is the SPC stand-in.

I just like it that way. If something is blatantly contradicted like with Buu, then it will be the exception. As a main villain Majin Buu covers all his forms, so Pure Buu wouldn't have to be stronger than previous forms.

That doesn't match anything we're shown.

Movie 10 took place, while the characters were still training for the tournament. Movie 11 took place after the tournament. Trunks and Goten could just be stronger to explain away any inconsistencies.

Other forms are shown and stated to be stronger even in the anime. And why apply that logic to Bojack and not the Buus? Pure Buu is one of the weakest incarnations, but he's also the last.

Because with Bojack, there's nothing directly contradicting it and with Buu there is. Plus Majin Buu's forms all fall under the same category of the main villain Majin Buu, thus Pure Buu wouldn't necessarily have to be stronger than previous forms, because the main villain didn't change. It's still Majin Buu.

Applying this logic to the movies also gets you Abo and Cado > Buu.

Of course Toriyama would bring up the exception to the rule by writing a silly story like that

[Saitou Hajime]

And all Trunks' attack did was distract Broly for a moment so he could get overwhelmed. Like Cell.

Actually, it looked to me like what happened was Trunks' little ki ball managed to intercept Brolly's own shot at just the right moment, disrupting Broly's connection to the Omega Blaster so that his subsequent shots damaged it rather than augmented it (which when combined with the Triple Kamehameha already pushing against it, decreased the size of the OB).

[Kid Buu]

Kid Chichi Vs. "40 ft" Bear

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nothing suggests EVERY bio warrior has to be stronger than the original

Except that every Bio-Warrior was actually stronger than the original?

And nothing in this film implies he got a rage boost at all. We also don't know that the anime staff didn't know. This wouldn't be the first time the anime staff got extra information in advance.

We do see him getting angry before transforming, so maybe he had one, maybe he didn't have one. The fact that no one tells him that he needs to get angry and get stronger though tells me that he was already at full power.

He could still hurt and stun Broly, and break his hold. If you can do that to someone as well as fly at a comparable speed to them and survive their hits, you aren't extremely far off from them by DB standards.

He couldn't hurt him, he could just barely push him & break his hold. And again, he was almost dead after a fight that lasted for only a minute, while Broli didn't have a scratch. It wasn't a fight between equals.

And this is also the same movie where base Gohan deflects a ki blast from SS Broli, and also breaks a hold of LSS Broli & pushes him away with a kick. And also the same movie that has base beaten Trunks' ki blast make LSS Broli's ki blasts explode.

No, they definitely broke his barrier. He didn't burn to death, he got a hole torn through his chest.

The hole opened from behind, while the Kamehameha strikes from the front, so it came from the impact on the sun.

[RandomGuy96]

Except that every Bio-Warrior was actually stronger than the original?

The human ones. We plainly see LSS Bio-Broly being weaker than M10 SS Broly (though maybe not M8 LSS Broly).

We do see him getting angry before transforming, so maybe he had one, maybe he didn't have one. The fact that no one tells him that he needs to get angry and get stronger though tells me that he was already at full power.

Who would tell him?

He couldn't hurt him, he could just barely push him & break his hold. And again, he was almost dead after a fight that lasted for only a minute, while Broli didn't have a scratch. It wasn't a fight between equals.

He could hurt him, actually. Whenever Broly was hit, he was stunned, he grunted, and he had the standard "ow, prick" face. If Broly was so much enormously stronger, Gohan wouldn't have survived a single hit.

And this is also the same movie where base Gohan deflects a ki blast from SS Broli, and also breaks a hold of LSS Broli & pushes him away with a kick. And also the same movie that has base beaten Trunks' ki blast make LSS Broli's ki blasts explode.

Again, this is irrelevant. Toei's love of base saiyan warm-up fights doesn't suddenly mean that everything that actually HAPPENS in these movies is to be ignored. Plus, base Trunks distracting Broly is just a copy of the manga scene where base Vegeta distracted Cell.

The hole opened from behind, while the Kamehameha strikes from the front, so it came from the impact on the sun.

That doesn't indicate to me that the sun broke it, and we clearly see Broly himself being pierced by the Kamehameha. It's like claiming Cooler was immune to the Supernova + Kamehameha.

[Cursed Lemon]

A perfectly healthy SSJ2 adult Gohan punched Broly straight in the face and literally nothing happened.

It's useless to try to explain that movie via feats.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Post-Zenkai Gohan vs. First Form Frieza!

Who's stronger? Considering the fact that Vegeta stated that Gohan could turn the tide of the battle against Second Form Frieza via his Zenkai Boost, I can only assume that Kid Gohan would stand a decent chance against Frieza's first form. Which wouldn't be surprising since Vegeta was on First Form Frieza's level after a similar boost.

[Hellspawn28]

Bio Broli always seem like a water down version of Broli to me. He was stronger then SSj Goten, SSj Trunks and #18. So I guess he's somewhere between Imperfect Cell (post-human absorption)/#16 and Semi Perfect Cell. As for Bojack, I remember he was able to take a punch from SSj2 Gohan and was able to put up a fight. In my opinion, Bojack's second form would be stronger then Movie 8 Broli, but still weaker then Perfect Cell. Movie 8 Broli seem to be at Cell Jr level in my opinion seeing that Broli nearly killed everyone similar how the Cell Jr's were strong enough to nearly killed the Z fighters before Gohan transform.

[dbgtFO]

Yes, I think Gohan should be closer to second form Freeza here than First from Freeza.
In other Words; Gohan stomps