Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult Goku?

[BurakkuForesuto]

I don't get why people think that Nozawa is fitting for Adult Goku. People say, "Well Toriyama picked her" but they'd be half right. The half wrong comes from how Toriyama had very little if anything to do with casting for later sagas/DBZ/DBGT. He picked her for CHILD GOKU. That excuse doesn't work, because it's misinterpreted. The second excuse is the creator excuse itself. Just because a creator makes a choice doesn't mean it's a right choice. Oshii picked Yoshiko Sakakibara to replace the previous Puppet Master voice because he realized she was BETTER. He fucked up once, but he made the right choice. People do fuck up, y'know. So even if we assume he wanted this(which he never said) then he'd still be wrong. Considering that he knows almost nothing about DBZ anymore, that's enough to question/debunk this myth. Did you know that VAs like JYB were chosen by the "Word of God" himself Goro Taniguchi for the dub of Code Geass? I don't agree with criticisms of his Lelouch, but rightfully so, no-one uses the creator excuse to defend Johnny. We defend Johnny because we may not share the opinions of his detractors. That leads me to point four. Nozawa, unlike JYB as Lelouch does not fit Adult Goku. Honestly, do you believe that someone who looks like Goku would sound anything like that? The voice is not believable at all. It's not even "natural" either, because guys as big and strong as Goku do NOT sound like that. Mike Tyson? Innocence? Give me a break Tyson's voice doesn't fit him either. It's not believable. It's cringeworthy and annoying. Innocent? Well, I can sorta see that, but Tyson sure as hell isn't innocent.

Is it really hard to see anyone else as Goku? For me, it sure isn't. Romi Park, Toshihiko Seki, Nobuyuki Hiyama, Rica Matsumoto, Katsuyuki Konishi could all do better jobs as Adult Goku.

[VegettoEX]

Can I imagine it? Sure.

But it's not anyone else, it is Nozawa, there have clearly been no plans or attempts to do anything else with the character, and I like what it is a whole lot for a variety of reasons just fine thank you.

I'm not appealing to the author's choice just because I like it. It's an interesting fact to point out, and one that gets tossed into the mix when the conversation comes up. It's not the end-all/be-all answer, but it's part of a discussion.

Coming in with a "Well geeze all this stuff is so dumb can you REALLY believe this shit?! lolz" kind of post isn't going to foster a very productive conversation. You seem to want your opinion parroted back at you, and that's not something I'm willing to do. Perhaps you'll find someone who will, but again, I'm not sure what you're looking to accomplish beyond that.

[Kid Buu]

Well, we did once have another Japanese voice actor voice Goku when Kappei Yamaguchi voiced him in that DB:E dub. He was alright in the role, but it reminded me of Boy-Ranma/InuYasha quite a bit.

I've never had a problem with Nozawa as Adult Goku, but sadly being human means she can't voice Goku forever, and I wouldn't mind seeing a new voice actor tackle on Goku at that point.

[MCDaveG]

As it is common practice in western dub, I was actually intrigued that after some time skip, the character is voiced by the same actor, hence he has the same voice.
You have kids voiced by women and adults by men usually. I actually like this practice in Japan and I never was a fan of females voicing children since my childhood.
What I am actually afraid as a fan is that humans are fragile and not forever lasting, which in case of artists is a more noticeable trait.

My opinion is opposite.

[Gaffer Tape]

Do I think Word of God is too often used to justify stupid things? Yes. Do I think a creator is fallible? Definitely. Do I think Toriyama has made bad decisions? Oh, hell yes. Do I agree with you about Nozawa? ...No.

Honestly, I've never understood the believability argument. Considering all the breaks from reality the dramatic arts have asked us to accept from the beginning of time up until now (young boys playing women, characters breaking the fourth wall, adults playing children, a painted backdrop standing in for a sunny field) and just specifically the breaks from reality in Dragon Ball (an old man blows up the moon with a laser from his hands, a kid turns into a monkey, a full-sized house can be shrunk into the palm of a hand, Goku having hair like that), THIS of all things is what you can't believe? That Goku's voice only marginally deepens at puberty? That's less believable and realistic than him one day waking up and having a completely different set of vocal cords? Because, honestly, while neither is able to be spot on realism, what we get with Nozawa is much closer to reality. My voice is fairly deep. It certainly changed a lot when I went through puberty. But if you play back a tape of me as a kid, you'd instantly recognize my voice and speech patterns. Because when people say "voices change" they don't mean they're out and out replaced. They just deepen.

Do I think Nozawa was perfect? No. Even I think her screams can occasionally be grating, although that's not exclusive to her adult form. But for the majority, I absolutely love all of her roles. And while, since I was coming from the dub, I was a bit surprised the first time I heard adult Goku's Japanese voice, I never had difficulty accepting it.

[MCDaveG]

Do I think Word of God is too often used to justify stupid things? Yes. Do I think a creator is fallible? Definitely. Do I think Toriyama has made bad decisions? Oh, hell yes. Do I agree with you about Nozawa? ...No.

Honestly, I've never understood the believability argument. Considering all the breaks from reality the dramatic arts have asked us to accept from the beginning of time up until now (young boys playing women, characters breaking the fourth wall, adults playing children, a painted backdrop standing in for a sunny field) and just specifically the breaks from reality in Dragon Ball (an old man blows up the moon with a laser from his hands, a kid turns into a monkey, a full-sized house can be shrunk into the palm of a hand, Goku having hair like that), THIS of all things is what you can't believe? That Goku's voice only marginally deepens at puberty? That's less believable and realistic than him one day waking up and having a completely different set of vocal cords? Because, honestly, while neither is able to be spot on realism, what we get with Nozawa is much closer to reality. My voice is fairly deep. It certainly changed a lot when I went through puberty. But if you play back a tape of me as a kid, you'd instantly recognize my voice and speech patterns. Because when people say "voices change" they don't mean they're out and out replaced. They just deepen.

Do I think Nozawa was perfect? No. Even I think her screams can occasionally be grating, although that's not exclusive to her adult form. But for the majority, I absolutely love all of her roles. And while, since I was coming from the dub, I was a bit surprised the first time I heard adult Goku's Japanese voice, I never had difficulty accepting it.

I agree with this opinion on 100 %. Thanks Gaffer Tape.

[JulieYBM]

After sitting through one hundred thirty-two episodes of Dragon Ball why would I want anyone else voicing Gokuu just because he is no longer sixteen, but nineteen? Changing the voice actor would be changing the entire dynamic for no reason. After voicing Gokuu for Episodes #1-132 the only actor suited for voicing Gokuu is going to be the actor who has taken us on the journey so far. A different actor was not cast for Miya'uchi Kouhei as the younger Muten Roushi, nor was a different actor cast for Kuririn, Chaozu, or Blooma when they grew up. Why just Gokuu?

[eledoremassis02]

While you said that creators makes mistakes (that they fix) I don't think you could call Nozawa's adult Goku a mistake since she's been doing it for 25+ years. I think if there was a lot of resentment for her role as adult goku I think she would have been re-casted but she even lasted through another re-dub (kai)

But, She's not vary popular in the English speaking world (maybe not on here) and I can sorta see why. I mean, I am not a Schemmel fan and I would say he was wrong for the role but a large majority of fans would say other wise .

[BurakkuForesuto]

A different actor was not cast for Miya'uchi Kouhei as the younger Muten Roushi, nor was a different actor cast for Kuririn, Chaozu, or Blooma when they grew up. Why just Gokuu?

Because none of those guys had unfitting VAs. And their voices were as believable as they were from youth to adulthood. Roshi's VA died and was understandably replaced, but he's had like 3 other VAs outside of Roshi. Sato was probably the best Roshi outside Miyauchi, so in that sense, replacement wasn't too bad. Mayumi Tanaka's voice fits Kuririn, because it fits the body shape and the facial expressions. I can believe her as Kuririn. He never changes compared to Goku. For Nozawa, it's obvious that she's doing a "woman pretending to be a guy" and it doesn't fool anyone. Her voice doesn't fit the body type. I at least except a voice as deep as Ryo Horikawa's. Nothing less. That would have made Goku more believable. You see, there's a difference between aging and getting better and aging and getting WORSE.

[BurakkuForesuto]

While you said that creators makes mistakes (that they fix) I don't think you could call Nozawa's adult Goku a mistake since she's been doing it for 25+ years. I think if there was a lot of resentment for her role as adult goku I think she would have been re-casted but she even lasted through another re-dub (kai)

But, She's not vary popular in the English speaking world (maybe not on here) and I can sorta see why. I mean, I am not a Schemmel fan and I would say he was wrong for the role but a large majority of fans would say other wise .

Schemmel's Goku at least improved and became epic and fitting of the appearance of Goku. His performances have been nothing short of award winning. Nozawa got worse over time and wasn't even good in 1988. She was good as Gohan and Kid Goku, though.

[SaiyanZ]

The screams can be occasionally ear-grating like Gaffer Tape said, but I really don't have a problem with it. An old woman's voice is that of Genkai of YuYu Hakusho or Dr. Kureha from One Piece or Enyaba from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. I don't hear an old woman-esque voice when I listen to Masako Nozawa voice Goku, I hear a voice that can emulate Goku's charm and his seriousness and his battle savvy and his comedic side, etc. So I definitely think the right decision was made to keep her as the seiyuu.

[Ajay]

I'm confused. Is this even a discussion or just an opportunity for you to go 'no, she's bad, you're wrong' to anyone who says otherwise?

Gaffer Tape wrote a great reply that I'm sure many feel reflects their own opinions towards the voice and yet you've chosen to ignore it; instead choosing to pick on a small part of someone else's argument.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, I've never liked that voice for him at all, and the idea of it is even worse when I imagine Stepahnie Nadolny or Colleen Clinkenbeard, both voices that I like, playing that role. The cognitive dissonance is too strong to overcome for me.

It's not something I'd be able to take seriously and would probably be borderline laughable during the serious scenes throughout Z.

[KentalSSJ6]

While it took some warming up, I enjoy Nazawa as Goku. I think its clear the only time we won't hear her as Goku is when she passes away (hopefully not for a long time though don't get me wrong). Inevitably Toei would have to find a replacement if they continued on with the franchise and as I and some other have said, Romi Paku would be a good replacement but Nazawa IS Goku for Japan. She's always been the one they go to and she loves doing it.

[Fionordequester]

Honestly, I've never understood the believability argument. Considering all the breaks from reality the dramatic arts have asked us to accept from the beginning of time up until now (young boys playing women, characters breaking the fourth wall, adults playing children, a painted backdrop standing in for a sunny field) and just specifically the breaks from reality in Dragon Ball (an old man blows up the moon with a laser from his hands, a kid turns into a monkey, a full-sized house can be shrunk into the palm of a hand, Goku having hair like that), THIS of all things is what you can't believe?

Here's the thing though, the fact that there are those breaks in reality is exactly why a story should try to keep things realistic where it can. I mean yes, DBZ has a ton of things that you have to accept for the sake of a story. Like the characters actually being martial artists even though to me, it seems more like wanna-be martial artists who move really awkwardly and make lots of unnecessary dramatic movements (especially in DB). Or the fact that their punches have any force behind them when they're in the air, despite the fact that, being in the air, without the ground to brace against or anything, their punches really shouldn't have that kind of power behind them (I say this as a martial artist myself). OR the fact that fights will last for like, 7 Episodes rather than only a few minutes (like most fights in real life do). Or the fact that there are dinosaurs with human looking eyes, and well, I'm sure I could go on and on...

I understand exactly how you feel. Because what may not necessarily be practical in a real fight might look darn cool in action. And while most fights don't generally last more than a few minutes, that would make for very anti-climactic fights, and etc. The characters looking strange by our standards? That's ok, because it gives the world a unique look and feel, and allows the artist much more freedom in making exaggerated faces and expressions and all that. In other words, those things, we're willing to accept, because they have a point.

Same thing with Goku having a weird voice. Well, it actually does have something of a point. I mean...ok, I suppose it does a good job of accentuating what an oddball he is. Also, Nozawa's a great actor, so that's something. And there's a charm to the childlike manner that Goku speaks in, despite how powerful and strong he is...

But, here's the thing. You can still do all of those same things just by having a sufficiently talented male actor, like Schemmel, who speaks in that sort of childlike and unique manner. Who shows what an oddball Goku is (at least, nowadays), and etc. In other words, casting Nozawa served no purpose that couldn't have just as easily been replicated by a good male VA. So I feel that if they had done that instead, we would have everything that Nozawa brought without having to sacrifice believability as well.

Because here's the thing. A world being crazy or zany isn't really an excuse to have something crazy and zany exist just because "hey, why not? It fits right in!". You could justify basically all of the old FUNI dub if you did that, even Season 3 (after all, the show's already crazy and wacky anyways)! You understand what I mean? I mean I do like Nozawa's performance, don't get me wrong, but I still think the casters could have done better, by finding someone like Schemmel to do the voice instead.

EDIT: And as an above poster said, there's also a bit of a dissonant effect hearing a woman's voice coming out of an adult man's body.

[MagicBox]

THIS of all things is what you can't believe? That Goku's voice only marginally deepens at puberty? That's less believable and realistic than him one day waking up and having a completely different set of vocal cords? Because, honestly, while neither is able to be spot on realism, what we get with Nozawa is much closer to reality. My voice is fairly deep. It certainly changed a lot when I went through puberty. But if you play back a tape of me as a kid, you'd instantly recognize my voice and speech patterns. Because when people say "voices change" they don't mean they're out and out replaced. They just deepen.

Wonderfully worded, and I think everyone should go back and read this part if not the entire post.

I, for one, simply don't understand this apparently slavish devotion to what sounds "normal." This person should sound like this. This person should sound like that. All of these things should sound one way and not deviate from the norm under any circumstances. Why? Some of the most memorable performances in television and cinema exist because of atypical casting choices. That's not to say we should be weird for the sake of being weird, but why not be more open-minded when something does take a different approach?

I would like to add that I've never once thought of Nozawa's performance as a "woman pretending to be a guy." I don't hear anything guy-ish or girl-ish about the performance. She's just playing Goku. The voice deepens as the character ages. To say otherwise is incorrect. BurakkuForesuto, may I ask how extensively you've listened to the performance? Are we talking brief clips on YouTube, here? It's cool if you don't like the voice, though I'm not entirely sure you're making your point very well by just replying with "Nuh-uh. Nope. She's bad. Schemmel's good. End of story." We need more context than that.

[Zephyr]

A world being crazy or zany isn't really an excuse to have something crazy and zany exist just because "hey, why not? It fits right in!".

In the context of Goku and who he is, crazy and zany does fit right in, even after he's grown up. The voice and performance help to accentuate who Goku is (the zany S3 Funi voices hardly strive for this). Keeping the voice, mannerisms, and such relatively the same helps drive home the point that he's the same guy with the same personality. That's not to say he needs to have such a voice, but to say that it doesn't fit in, or it's slapped on "just because" is silly.

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: Fionordequester

That's a very good post with a lot of good points, but it seems like you stopped reading my post you were replying to at the point you cut off the quote. Because I DO think there's a point. I DO think it's at least as believable as casting an adult male, and in some ways more believable, which I already explained. And in light of that, I find it difficult to understand why you seem to be implying that I'm championing the idea of "being weird for the sake of being weird."

As JulieYBM implied, Nozawa was already THE VOICE of Dragon Ball. When I think of Dragon Ball, her "Ossu! Ora Goku!" is one of the first things I think of. There's a reason they made sure to include that in Battle of Gods and in fact had it open the trailer of Battle of Gods. That is animated Dragon Ball in a nutshell. So much so that the one time in the franchise they chose to completely break away from all of the established main characters, they still had the lead be a Goku clone who was voiced by Nozawa (I'm talking about the Bardock special in case you didn't catch that). It's something that American fans honestly just can't understand because they never had anything like that. FUNimation did 13 episodes of Dragon Ball and then skipped over it. Before we even had a chance to really connect to Saffron Henderson, we jumped ahead a decade and got Ian Corlett. After a little over a year of him, we got Peter Kelamis. Less than a season later, we got Sean Schemmel. In the movies, we got Ceyli Delgadillo. In the original series redub and GT, Stephanie Nadolny. In movie 1, Colleen Clinkenbeard. And that's just talking about FUNimation's productions. Americans have never had a single defining voice for Goku. They never had one voice define Dragon Ball for years. So of course you'd be a lot more open to the idea of, "Hey, just replace the voice."

So if we're talking about making sure decisions have a point, then answer me this. What is the point in taking your hit show and replacing one of the only constant things you've heard in every single episode for nearly three years? What's the point in taking someone who vocally created and defined an iconic character and tossing her aside for someone untried and untested? What's the point in dumping the undisputed star of your show and losing any and all vocal and acting consistency? So, yeah, I agree. Any competent male actor could have come in and done a serviceable, good, or great job with Goku. But what's the point when they already had an amazing lead actress who knew the character?

[ABED]

Where one draws the line as to what they buy in fiction is fairly arbitrary. I'm not trying to say you can never say "I don't buy that", just acknowledging that it's an arbitrary line. I buy Nozawa's Goku because it sounds to me what that voice would sound like when the child grew up, and she's a great actress. I don't need physical grounding, but I do need "emotional grounding". Her voice fits in the exaggerated world of DB. I don't think any other actor (male or female) could possibly bring what she did. The only problem I've ever had is her age is starting to show since Kai began. It doesn't have that youthful energy and sound it once did. It's understandable, obviously.

[TheBlackPaladin]

What is the point in taking your hit show and replacing one of the only constant things you've heard in every single episode for nearly three years? What's the point in taking someone who vocally created and defined an iconic character and tossing her aside for someone untried and untested? What's the point in dumping the undisputed star of your show and losing any and all vocal and acting consistency? So, yeah, I agree. Any competent male actor could have come in and done a serviceable, good, or great job with Goku. But what's the point when they already had an amazing lead actress who knew the character?

This point won't be good enough for everybody, but my response to that would be because that's more in line with reality and believability. A point that is rarely brought up--and deserves to be brought up more frequently in this discussion--is that the Japanese version of Dragon Ball is the only version where they kept the same actor as child Goku to play adult Goku. Every single dub recast Goku with an older sounding voice once he came of age. The Japanese version is, of course, allowed to get away with doing whatever they want because it is the original version, and whatever the creator says goes. I simply think it's worth bringing up that English-speaking audiences are not the only audiences that felt it would be a good idea to bring in an older-sounding voice actor once the character came of age.

With that said...

Over the years, I have listened to Nozawa's performance much more often than I used to and came to have a great respect for it. Her acting and her delivery are--at least from what I can tell as a non-native speaker--fantastic, and it totally captures the character of Goku. I smile whenever I hear her as Goku, as a child or as an adult.

However, while it is true that all stories require some suspension of disbelief, asking me to believe that someone who looks like an adult man and has what is quite obviously the voice of an adult woman is--for me specifically--asking a little too much.

I don't mind it as much as I once did, but the reason I don't mind it is because I have acknowledged how odd it is. Rather than trying to ignore the oddness, I decided to embrace it. It was hard to accept Nozawa's voice as adult Goku (and I am talking specifically about Goku as an adult here, not as a child) because it did not--and still doesn't--sound natural to me. However, one day I just decided, "You know what? It doesn't sound natural. Maybe it doesn't have to, though. Maybe I can just accept that Goku, being a very weird guy, has a very weird voice." With that mindset, I found I was able to enjoy Nozawa's performance as adult Goku much more. I can't pretend that it sounds natural. To me, it doesn't...but I started liking her performance when I acknowledged that it doesn't have to.

Even this, however, is made more difficult by Toei's descision to assign one voice actor for each character regardless of their age. It fits Goku, because Goku is a weird guy. I have a harder time accepting the same concept for Kuririn, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks, because they aren't particularly weird, at least not if we're using Goku as a standard for oddness.