Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult Goku?

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:52 pm

Well, I wouldn't say that point doesn't often get brought up. To be blunt, you bring it up every time this topic is breached. That's not a knock against you. I don't think anything in this thread is new to anyone who's been around the block. It just goes to show how often we have this conversation. I will say I disagree about the sake of believability and reality. I mean, I've already addressed that. See my first post for why. There are two solutions, and neither one is perfect, both are valid, and I don't see either as being wholly advantageous over the other. I just find it kind of silly to claim that one is realistic and the other not when they both have valid reasons for being realistic and both have valid reasons for being unrealistic. And again, for the reasons I stated in my first post.

As for the "Goku is a weird guy/childlike/etc." argument, there's a reason I never use it: I don't think it's relevant. At all. It doesn't matter. As far as I am concerned, it has nothing to do with the issue in question. It should only matter whether or not you think Nozawa's portrayal is good or not, whether or not it captures the essence of the character.

I'm not asking anyone to buy it. I agree with ABED: everyone's suspension of disbelief is different. I just have a harder time accepting the argument of, "This could never work ever." I'm much more open to the argument of, "I just don't think Nozawa pulled it off."

I just want to bring this up. I am currently in a production of You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown. I am Charlie Brown. Charlie Brown is an eight-year-old boy. I am not an eight-year-old boy. I am a twenty-eight-year-old man. The guy who plays Schroeder just turned 35. There is only one person in our cast who is not an adult, and she's 13, still substantially older than her character. In live-action, the character of Peter Pan is traditionally played by an adult woman. I'm not talking about animation. I'm saying in live theatre, Peter Pan, a boy who never grows up (unless he's Robin Williams) is an adult woman. In case you haven't noticed, women and boys don't look all that similar. Yet nobody seems to care. And live-action is far less forgiving than animation, where it's just based on voice and has nothing to do with appearance.

So I guess what I'm saying is... if your need for so-called realism trumps your ability to emotionally connect with a character... well, please don't come see my show. :lol:
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:22 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Well, I wouldn't say that point doesn't often get brought up. To be blunt, you bring it up every time this topic is breached. That's not a knock against you. I don't think anything in this thread is new to anyone who's been around the block.
Yeah, I guess this subject has come up on this forum...y'know, somewhat frequently here and there. :lol:

My response to the Charlie Brown example you brought up would be that--assuming everybody in the cast is in the relative same ball-park age-wise, save the 13-year-old--since the play is demonstrating early on that older-looking people can play younger-looking people, the "rules" of the world of that play have been established. In other words, it doesn't seem out of place because it is established early on that, in that production, older-looking people playing kids is an artistic decision that the director made, and something that can happen in that world.

Aaaaaand.....here's where being exposed to a dub first, before the original Japanese version, has come back to haunt me and others.

Yup, I'm admitting it. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm admitting it. The dub--and it happens to be the English dub in this case, but it could have been any dub of Dragon Ball, really--made it a slight problem. If I had seen the Japanese version first, it would have been much easier for me to accept that the world of Dragon Ball is a world where each character has one voice that changes only marginally depending on their age. Alas, that's not what happened. I saw the dub first...and the dub, for me, established the world of Dragon Ball as a world where each character (at least in concept, if not necessarily in execution) sounds their age. So it was odd to see another version--in this case, the Japanese version--where the same rule wasn't followed.

If I could compare it to the Charlie Brown example you brought up, it would be like showing a version of that play where all of the kid characters were played by kids, and then one day, after the intermission, we suddenly heard on the PA system, "Attention audiences, the actors seen thus far will not be playing their parts for the remainder of the play...for the remainder of the play, we have the following new cast..." and then the adults came out. Metaphorically speaking, that's how the introduction of some of the Japanese voices felt to me. It came across as...odd.

Since every other dub did the same (my apologies for bringing that up again for the umpteenth time :lol: ), I'd have to assume that it's like that for many other fans as well. In whatever version of something you see first, the rules are established, and deviating from them is not always easy for audience members to do. That's where the accusations of "nostalgia-blinding" typically come in...but then again, that's the reason why certain terms like "my cast" get thrown around...some casts work better for some than others. In every instance where a character has been played by more than one actor, there will be some who like one performance and some who like another. It's all subjective. Between the way I was first exposed to Dragon Ball, and my satisfaction with the performances of (most) of the English cast as of Kai...I guess, in this case, hearing voices that don't match the characters age-wise is a tad too odd for me.

My need for realism doesn't trump my ability to connect with characters, the latter is what is paramount. However, a lack of believability can interfere with emotional connection...if something feels like it doesn't fit, it can become difficult to focus on the performance in and of itself. Could assigning one voice actor to each character, regardless of their age, work? Absolutely it could, and for many, it has. For many others, it hasn't.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Quebaz » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:29 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
This point won't be good enough for everybody, but my response to that would be because that's more in line with reality and believability. A point that is rarely brought up--and deserves to be brought up more frequently in this discussion--is that the Japanese version of Dragon Ball is the only version where they kept the same actor as child Goku to play adult Goku. Every single dub recast Goku with an older sounding voice once he came of age.
The Portuguese dub did this as well.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:32 pm

Quebaz wrote:
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
This point won't be good enough for everybody, but my response to that would be because that's more in line with reality and believability. A point that is rarely brought up--and deserves to be brought up more frequently in this discussion--is that the Japanese version of Dragon Ball is the only version where they kept the same actor as child Goku to play adult Goku. Every single dub recast Goku with an older sounding voice once he came of age.
The Portuguese dub did this as well.
You're right, and I realized that soon after making my last post (I was about to go back and mention how the European Portuguese dub did this as well, and struck me as being similarly odd, although I was going to use a clip of child Gohan to demonstrate it rather than child Goku).
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:32 pm

If I could compare it to the Charlie Brown example you brought up, it would be like showing a version of that play where all of the kid characters were played by kids, and then one day, after the intermission, we suddenly heard on the PA system, "Attention audiences, the actors seen thus far will not be playing their parts for the remainder of the play...for the remainder of the play, we have the following new cast..." and then the adults came out. Metaphorically speaking, that's how the introduction of some of the Japanese voices felt to me. It came across as...odd.
This isn't that at all. It's like having a different production and cast of the same play.
deviating from them is not always easy for audience members to do
True, people generally don't like change. However, I wish they simply acknowledge that many of their preferences are arbitrary.

Some love the quote unquote realistic Batman of the Nolan films, and I do to a point, but I do have some issue with "I like it because if Batman existed, that's how it would be". Batman couldn't exist, at least not for long, in the real world so it seems silly to like something more simply because it's more "realistic". It's all pretty much fantasy.
if something feels like it doesn't fit
Being real and fitting aren't the same thing.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Valerius Dover » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:35 pm

As someone who hasn't seen the original outside of a few clips, I'm not really bothered by this. It's definitely an easier transition if you start from the very beginning, I'd imagine. The only thing that really bugs me is that Gohan and Goten get the exact same voice.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:42 pm

Valerius Dover wrote:As someone who hasn't seen the original outside of a few clips, I'm not really bothered by this. It's definitely an easier transition if you start from the very beginning, I'd imagine. The only thing that really bugs me is that Gohan and Goten get the exact same voice.
It's not the same performance, though.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Quebaz » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:46 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
You're right, and I realized that soon after making my last post (I was about to go back and mention how the European Portuguese dub did this as well, and struck me as being similarly odd, although I was going to use a clip of child Gohan to demonstrate it rather than child Goku).
You can still go ahead and post that, even if to serve as an example.

On-topic of Nozawa being Adult Goku or not, Gaffer Tape made an argument that when people say "voices change", they just deepen. Ever since I was a kid I had a class-mate that not only was he shorter than the rest of the class his voice was also higher-pitched as well, I stopped seeing the guy for a while because we changed schools after 6th grade, I recently saw him this year and boy did he grow up, he was taller than me now, but I could still recognize him because of his voice, yes it was a bit deeper now, but when he was talking to his friends and even with me, you could tell it was the same voice he had back when he was 12, it was deeper yes and at first glance it sounded kinda wierd hearing it from him, but it still was higher-pitched than me or his friends and it was still his own voice.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:54 pm

RE: TheBlackPaladin

Thank you!

As for what you said, I do have a couple of problems with it. The first one is maybe semantics and maybe a little bit off point, but I feel slightly irked for some reason at your description of adults playing the Peanuts roles to be "setting something up in a universe." Because to me, that feels way, way, way off the reality of it. That sounds like an in-universe thing to me. Not that that's a dirty word, but it's not this. "Setting that up from the beginning" would be something like characters being able to fire beams out of their hands and ride magical flying clouds. And that's not what's happening here. The world of You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown isn't Francis Ford Coppola's Jack (wow, two Robin Williams references in a row). The show isn't establishing that, in this fictional world, kids look like adults. Like with Peter Pan, they're just supposed to be regular kids, and you accept that through the performances and (hopefully) forget that the physical likenesses are a bit of a stretch. Likewise, in Dragon Ball, there are a lot of child characters, none of whom are played by children. Are we supposed to assume that that's the fictional universe setting up the idea that children have the voices of middle-aged women? Of course not. It's just a production convention and, unless you actually are using children to play children, any method of casting is going to require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief.

Also, I don't really see how your mid-intermission cast change example works on your side of the argument. Hell, it sounds like I should be using it on my side of the argument! :lol: I mean, really, we're talking about consistency of performance versus accepting a new actor in the same role all of a sudden. That's exactly what Dragon Ball avoided and what the dub purposely chose to do. So comparing Nozawa staying in the role to a sudden cast change seems at total cross-purposes with what you're saying.

But other than that, I get what you're saying, and I understand it. As I've said, I'm not against the idea of recasting. I just don't see it as a cut and dry, "This is realistic. This is not," argument because they all have pros and cons and elements that are realistic and unrealistic. And, to try not sound too arrogant, it's always seemed to me like the detractors' argument (unless they just don't like Nozawa specifically) boils down to, "It's not following the rules I've been conditioned to accept. Therefore, it's not realistic." But anyway, here's how I see it:

Casting Real Children
Pros:
Totally realistic and age-appropriate.
If planned carefully or desired, can age with the character for a seamless performance.

Cons:
Children aren't always the best actors.
If characters do not age realistically, the boys (and girls if they can't pitch their voice back up and play young) will most likely age out and have to be replaced, diminishing consistency and realism.

Using Different Adults for Different Ages
Pros:
Women can more realistically mimic the higher pitch of young boys than men's deeper voices can.
Adult men can be used for adult forms to emphasize the natural deepening of a young person's voice.

Cons:
No realism in regards to consistency of voice.
Forces audience to accept new actor in an already-established role.
No consistency of performance.

Using Same Adult for Different Ages
Pros:
Consistency of performance.
Realism of consistency of voice.
No need for audience to have to accept a new take on an established character.

Cons:
Potentially unrealistic vocal ranges.

Also, this gets brought up a lot, but... The Simpsons. In all of their flashing to the futures, they never changed the voice actors. It would be ridiculous to even consider it because they are all so iconic in their roles, having played them for 25 years. So the idea is not exactly foreign to American animation enthusiasts.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:03 pm

Also, this gets brought up a lot, but... The Simpsons. In all of their flashing to the futures, they never changed the voice actors. It would be ridiculous to even consider it because they are all so iconic in their roles, having played them for 25 years. So the idea is not exactly foreign to American animation enthusiasts.
Not only that, but the actors often play the characters when they were younger, such as the episode where we see Homer and Marge at camp when they were kids. I'd also like to add that it shouldn't be overlooked that DB and even DBZ are highly comedic, so the voices don't have to sound 100 percent real.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Puto » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:11 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:is that the Japanese version of Dragon Ball is the only version where they kept the same actor as child Goku to play adult Goku. Every single dub recast Goku with an older sounding voice once he came of age.
Actually, the Portuguese dub (yes, the terrible ‘Opera Singer Ginyū’ dub) had Henrique Feist voicing him throughout the whole thing. Just sayin'.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:20 pm

Are there any examples of an animation where the main protagonist started off as a child, but ended up as an adult towards the end, and had a different voice when said character grew up?
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:24 pm

ABED wrote:
Also, this gets brought up a lot, but... The Simpsons. In all of their flashing to the futures, they never changed the voice actors. It would be ridiculous to even consider it because they are all so iconic in their roles, having played them for 25 years. So the idea is not exactly foreign to American animation enthusiasts.
Not only that, but the actors often play the characters when they were younger, such as the episode where we see Homer and Marge at camp when they were kids. I'd also like to add that it shouldn't be overlooked that DB and even DBZ are highly comedic, so the voices don't have to sound 100 percent real.
Also, Tommy Pickles from Rugrats had the same VA for every appearance except the original pilot, including the "All Grown Up" show.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:25 pm

Enzo on Reboot not only had a different actor as a kid than as an adult, he had four different kids that voiced his character in a series that lasted for about 4 years.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:35 pm

Also I think it is a bit rude to recast someone like that. You're basically making them lose their job, ouch! :lol:
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:43 pm

BurakkuForesuto wrote:
Schemmel's Goku at least improved and became epic and fitting of the appearance of Goku. His performances have been nothing short of award winning. Nozawa got worse over time and wasn't even good in 1988. She was good as Gohan and Kid Goku, though.
While he did improve I still don't see him portraying Goku well. I think the first two Funi/Ocean Gokus did a better job at that. Schemmels Goku is still to strong in the serious department and when he tries to be comical Goku I think he sounds too forced. But, like Nozawa, he's the longest lasting Goku so It really depends on your preference.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:50 pm

Comparing one-off flashforward episodes of the Simpsons to 331 episodes of an action cartoon isn't exactly the strongest argument.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:45 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Comparing one-off flashforward episodes of the Simpsons to 331 episodes of an action cartoon isn't exactly the strongest argument.
It's not the strongest, but DB and DBZ aren't simply action cartoons. It's VERY comedic. Humor is ingrained in its DNA.
Also I think it is a bit rude to recast someone like that.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:50 pm

Dragon Ball is a story about people who settle their problems with violence, but it is also a show made by people with entirely different views than those westerners (Americans?) now in this thread claiming it is 'unrealistic' or 'unbelievable'. Merely because an individual does not understand a life does not mean said life is no life at all. Nozawa Masako's Gokuu is a life that has endured with millions across the Planet Earth. Those from planets and dimensions peering down upon ours might even enjoy it, too, it's certainly not impossible!
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Nozawa should have never been Adult G

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:56 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Dragon Ball is a story about people who settle their problems with violence, but it is also a show made by people with entirely different views than those westerners (Americans?) now in this thread claiming it is 'unrealistic' or 'unbelievable'. Merely because an individual does not understand a life does not mean said life is no life at all. Nozawa Masako's Gokuu is a life that has endured with millions across the Planet Earth. Those from planets and dimensions peering down upon ours might even enjoy it, too, it's certainly not impossible!
What does this even mean? Who said anything about "no life at all"?
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