A look at Goku and Vegeta after Potara fusion.

[Metalwario64]

It's probably because it's been flipped.

[andrewtuell1991]

Sorry if this counts as necro-posting, but after re-reading the wonderfully written OP, something caught my eye.

Right after they split apart, Goku seems to develop a weird OBSESSION with fusing with Vegeta. He started to bring up either Potara or fusion whenever he could to get Vegeta to do it with him. His attitude is enough to made the audience raise their brows and go "What's wrong with you Goku? o,O", while no one has problem with Vegeta's stubborn resistance anymore.

But after fusing once, he forced the idea of fusion into Vegeta, and find it hard to accept the guy's refusal, I was like: Okay i know you are empty and it did you good, but others don’t hit their heads. They are not empty. Vegeta here especially has too much on his mind, poor guy’s spent his life feeling ashamed more than everyone, and masked it all behind his pride. He's hopeless, so how about you stop forcing your emptiness into him. He's already fused once, and even relaxed around you after that, tasting your tea. Now leave him alone dude. You have emptied your cup but you are clearly not ready to taste his tea of pride this time."

Despite a lifetime of Vegeta constantly priding himself to be #1, despite never coming close to being so, I'd say Vegeta is someone who is proud of he is. Through his stubbornness and cockiness, he's someone who's never excepted help even in dire circumstance and relies solely upon himself for self-improvement. He practical ignores Trunks during their training in Rosat. Through it all, Vegeta at least respects who he is and what he is.

Goku, on the other hand, is a different story. It's been discussed several times how Goku's love of fighting and getting stronger can be a weakness for the guy, often shutting out his friends and family years at a time to train. Pride in who he is has never been something to associate with Goku. His only real concern of potara fusing with Gohan was whether Chichi would send him to school. I can only imaging that Goku, being who he is, must have felt a great serge of happiness while being fused as Vegetto, and was probably disappointed when the fusion he was told would be permanent wore off. I think that Goku, someone who always wants to be the strongest, wants to fuse with Vegeta again, if only to feel that power for just 30 minutes.

Which leads me to the question that prompted me to revive this topic, "Would Goku sacrifice his individuality just to be the strongest in the universe?" All the signs point to it.

*Harassing Vegeta to fuse again, be it dance or potara.
*This odd sudden obsession of wanting to look cool in front of Vegeta. Almost as if to say, "Hey, look how cool I am. Wouldn't fusing with me be great?"
*And maybe, subconsciously, not giving his all against Pure Buu and Beerus, as if he's saying to Vegeta that there is no other way.

It's something to think about!

[ssjgluffy]

Wow, thats crazy. I never even thought of it like that but it makes so much sense now

[nhienphan2808]

*Harassing Vegeta to fuse again, be it dance or potara.
*This odd sudden obsession of wanting to look cool in front of Vegeta. Almost as if to say, "Hey, look how cool I am. Wouldn't fusing with me be great?"

The way i view it it's a little different and can be said in one line. It's more like : "Hey Vegeta lets cheat by using that ossum powah even tho it's not even necessary because after we fused i'm suddenly so confused and afraid i can't work together as INDIVIDUALS and handle your ego while getting my shit done LIKE I ALWAYS COULD before. Grr.. fine, ill do it alone. LOOK AT ME I"M COOL and badass, more than you. I am, right? Quit that nice guy face of yours, coz it was mine before we fused...SHIIIT, I screwed up and it's YOUR fault. "

It's not the way he want power to the point of rejecting his being, it's that he suddenly NEEDS that power to make up his (newly absorbed from Vegeta????) insecurity and pessimism and voicing that NEED so strongly he couldn't even see the present moment (things to do, people to save, Vegeta being willing to help) and spare Vegeta's pride. Goku had always spared Vegeta's pride and individuality. That's because he had confidence in himself as an individual who always found ways to work together with people with complete respect for them, ESPECIALLY Vegeta, and somehow, he had also always made things work. But after they fused i do not see that faith and confidence in companionship between individuals in him. I see it in Vegeta, and the egotistic insecurities Goku showed are just like Vegeta's in Cell Arc.

[ImmaDeker]

That was a pretty awesome read, actually. Kudos.

[nhienphan2808]

*And maybe, subconsciously, not giving his all against Pure Buu and Beerus,

Eh i don't think that's BECAUSE he loved fusion. More like he limited by a bit of Vegeta's ego now, so i'd imagine he would not even be able to give it his all like he was before if he wanted. Pre-Potara Goku was imitless, ego-killing, with only enemy being himself, that's way he was the best. His strange irritation at not being taken seriously in front of Beerus and Buu showed that they are his enemies, so he needs to win, that need to win, to look cool, screwed him up like it did Vegeta. And it's AFTER he screwed up that he talked about fusion again.

[KameRule]

All these guys saying that Goku was tainted by Vegeta's evil afterwards, I really don't think that was the case. I think that, while inside Vegetto, the two of them shared each others' memories for the duration of the fusion. I can't prove anything with scans, but I guess that Goku had a change of heart as he had seen Vegeta's tragic past, and Vegeta as he had had a chance to know what it was like to have been free all your life. And, while I agree that Toriyama probably didn't intend for this kind of deep character development, I imagine that he drew the story as he felt it should naturally progress, so...

Also, this is the best fan theory I have heard in ages.

[RandomGuy96]

This whole theory is ignoring one very simple fact: that they had to fuse to beat Buu. There was no other option, absolutely none. If they tried to fight Super Buu without fusion, he'd kill them, and kill them slow. Goku was actually eager to fight a weaker Buu one on one; he flat out refused fusion, because Buu was now weak enough for him to beat. He only expressed regret about not fusing when even that Buu proved to be a tiny bit too much thanks to SS3's stamina issues. Even then, he still agreed with Vegeta not to use the dance, or Gohan, or the spare earrings.

[nhienphan2808]

This whole theory is ignoring one very simple fact: that they had to fuse to beat Buu. There was no other option, absolutely none. If they tried to fight Super Buu without fusion, he'd kill them, and kill them slow.

And i think youre missing this theory's entire point. We disagree on Goku and Vegeta's original personalities i guess.
I don't think Pre Potara Goku and Vegeta are such logical people like you who actually gave a shit about beating the bad guy and saving the day. All they ever care about is a good fight (Goku) and a good hunt to win (Vegeta) They are not people who actually can think ahead and be cautious that the bad guy would kill them. The Goku i know would be Goku, accepting not fusing right away without so much pouting, and somehow pull shit out of his ass to win, and the Vegeta i know would be Vegeta with ego the size of the universe and somehow help without the intention to help. Life and death, world's fate logic does not apply to both of them. After Potara, Goku suddenly is logically afraid and insecure and NEED fusion so badly, and Vegeta suddenly logically be nice try to help save the day. You may say 'finally at long last they grew up and be just a lil bit sensible", i wont disagree.The thing is that this 'development' was in seconds.

Goku was actually eager to fight a weaker Buu one on one; he flat out refused fusion, because Buu was now weak enough for him to beat. He only expressed regret about not fusing when even that Buu proved to be a tiny bit too much thanks to SS3's stamina issues. Even then, he still agreed with Vegeta not to use the dance, or Gohan, or the spare earrings

Yeah he's eager to fight alone and complied not to fuse, but his arrogance and constant pouting about fusion is new. Pre-Potara Goku is cocky too, but he get hit shit done smoothly. If he screwed up, he doesnt shame away from saying sorry even if the ones who faults are Gohan, Krillin or Vegeta. Afdter Potara he's kinda constantly angry that it's Vegeta's fault althought it was his arrogance that make him strangely clumsy? I don't see Goku REALLY caring about killing Buu when he was busy trying to show off Ssj3 to Vegeta, Meanwhile Vegeta's the one who offers help and try to understand him.

[RandomGuy96]

And i think youre missing this theory's entire point. We disagree on Goku and Vegeta's original personalities i guess.
I don't think Pre Potara Goku and Vegeta are such logical people like you who actually gave a shit about beating the bad guy and saving the day. All they ever care about is a good fight (Goku) and a good hunt to win (Vegeta) They are not people who actually can think ahead and be cautious that the bad guy would kill them. The Goku i know would be Goku, accepting not fusing right away without so much pouting, and somehow pull shit out of his ass to win, and the Vegeta i know would be Vegeta with ego the size of the universe and somehow help without the intention to help. Life and death, world's fate logic does not apply to both of them. After Potara, Goku suddenly is logically afraid and insecure and NEED fusion so badly, and Vegeta suddenly logically be nice try to help save the day. You may say 'finally at long last they grew up and be just a lil bit sensible", i wont disagree.The thing is that this 'development' was in seconds.

They're not exactly overly cautious, but they also aren't completely and utterly suicidal. That part about them never thinking ahead is completely wrong by the way. When they have to face an enemy they know outmatches them, they get scared, and try to think of a way around it (e.g. Vegeta and Cell/the Ginyus/Freeza, Goku and Vegeta, etc.). Going out and fighting Buu would only get them killed. It's flat-out unnecessary when they can just fuse. Neither of them have ever had a problem with relying on others to help them win fights before.

There's no shit to pull, in this case. Super Buu was genuinely too strong for anything other than fusion to work. He'd kill Goku and Vegeta and then rampage across the universe if they didn't fuse. I never thought I'd say this, but you don't give Goku and Vegeta enough credit. Again, you're essentially saying that it's out of character for them not to march outside and die pointlessly, leaving their sons as part of Buu, and letting him do whatever the hell he wants until the end of time. There's no development needed; neither of them have ever been THIS stu- well, not even stupid. Just death-seeking, I guess.

Yeah he's eager to fight alone and complied not to fuse, but his arrogance and constant pouting about fusion is new. Pre-Potara Goku is cocky too, but he get hit shit done smoothly. If he screwed up, he doesnt shame away from saying sorry even if the ones who faults are Gohan, Krillin or Vegeta. Afdter Potara he's kinda constantly angry that it's Vegeta's fault althought it was his arrogance that make him strangely clumsy? Meanwhile Vegeta's the one who offers help and try to understand him?

What arrogance? He admits that he should have fused, but that instead of doing so he 'showed off' by fighting Buu alone, because he said himself that would be "fairer" and more fun. Goku likes to fight; what he doesn't like is to do is get tortured to death, which is what would happen if he fought Super Buu. He's pissed at Vegeta initially because Vegeta just fucked them over- this was before he knew that they could use dance fusion inside of Buu's body. Hell, it's before they knew they could even find everybody. Vegeta was taking a hell of gamble by throwing away the only sure way for them to win and save themselves and the universe.

But when it's time to fight Pure Buu, he suddenly agrees with Vegeta, and wants a "fair fight".

[dbzfan7]

I'm pissed these wordings in the manga scans are much better than the one's I have. Are these the original 42 or 3-1?

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

This is a fantastic theory, such a great read. This is considered canon in my books

[sintzu]

I'm pissed these wordings in the manga scans are much better than the one's I have. Are these the original 42 or 3-1?

They're a fan sub.

[dbzfan7]

I'm pissed these wordings in the manga scans are much better than the one's I have. Are these the original 42 or 3-1?

They're a fan sub.

Are they for sure? Cause the fansubs I see usually have shitty quality. I heard the early volume set was a little uncensored and then censored later down the road, while the viz bigs I own were always censored. Why can't we get a full uncensored release in good quality damn it.

[Doctor.]

This is an absolutely brilliant theory, an excellent read. I guess this continued in Battle of Gods with Vegeta acting quite Goku-like, acting quite foolish to protect everyone and rather embarrassed at the end of the film. I think it's just another case of the fans overthinking things, but I like this nonetheless! I hope you don't mind if I adapt your theory to my Goku character analysis.

[sintzu]

Are they for sure? Cause the fansubs I see usually have shitty quality.

My bad i thought you were talking about the second page,The first page scans are Viz's.

I agree that Toriyama probably didn't intend for this kind of deep character development.

I think everything that we think he didn't intend for or was just luck is anything but like this topic which is one of many.

[dbzfan7]

Are they for sure? Cause the fansubs I see usually have shitty quality.

My bad i thought you were talking about the second page,The first page scans are Viz's.

Damn...are they 3-1 or the 42 set?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I think these observations apply more broadly to Vegeta than to Goku, as why, as has been pointed out, he did years worth of soul-searching in about two days. For such reason as;

This is an absolutely brilliant theory, an excellent read. I guess this continued in Battle of Gods with Vegeta acting quite Goku-like, acting quite foolish to protect everyone and rather embarrassed at the end of the film. I think it's just another case of the fans overthinking things, but I like this nonetheless! I hope you don't mind if I adapt your theory to my Goku character analysis.

Battle of Gods is the question, isn't it? You really need Goku taking after Vegeta to feel the way he did, I never found it that jarring, but it certainly does not contradict it!

This whole theory is ignoring one very simple fact: that they had to fuse to beat Buu. There was no other option, absolutely none.

Absolutely; and by that same token, nearly every stupid thing Goku does for the remainder of the last battle can be the guy finally (and rightly) cracking under stress. That's how I always took it.

Goku is not really blameless by this point in the story anyway, having put his son's progress over his world multiple times and all that, so this is not so much me rushing to keep Goku untarnished as saying there are simpler ways to work out his being frantic and winded at the close of the Buu fight.

[nhienphan2808]

nearly every stupid thing Goku does for the remainder of the last battle can be the guy finally (and rightly) cracking under stress. That's how I always took it.

Goku is not really blameless by this point in the story anyway, having put his son's progress over his world multiple times and all that, so this is not so much me rushing to keep Goku untarnished as saying there are simpler ways to work out his being frantic and winded at the close of the Buu fight.

Goku in Cell Arc does stupid thing with Gohan too and look how he stares in horror and stressed when Gohan get hurt. That is not technically his fault, right? He had it planned out that Gohan would fight Cell and definitely win. After Piccolo pointed it out for him that he did not know Gohan, what did he do then? He admitted his fault and try to make it up right away. Before Potara, after all the shit that happened that was also people's (Vegeta's) fault, the kids blamed him, and he apologized.

Hell, even in Saiyan Arc WHILE being so bewildered and stressed in the fight with Ozaruu Vegeta, and that is unterly defeat to come, he chose to apologize to his grandpa for something out of his awareness, of all things.

Post-Potara Goku? No excuse of plan, HIS ENTIRE FAULT, and no humble acceptance or apologies whatsoever. After fusing, Goku is not only Vegeta-ishly insecure and inflexible, he's Vegeta-ishly egotistic. He does not DARE to say sorry, instead lower himself to useless showing off and vanity. If he really was so down-to-Earth about defeating Buu why waste time justifying his actions to Vegeta. Also when Super Buu laughed at him, He was all : "Think i can't do it, bastard? D:<" When Kid Buu slept while he was showing off SSj3, he was angry at not being taking seriously. These signs are present when he fought Beerus, and i've seen discussions about how OOC Goku was in that fight.

Of course all the signs are really subtle, but then Vegeta's are, too, as if it's "normal character development".

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

All true, but I'm not really sure how you're arguing directly against what I've said.

So, doing some over-analyzing and sloppy positive interpretations of Toriyama's handling of the Buu arc of my own, I've always pegged Buu as a different beast for Goku simply because when he reenters the fight, its already lost, in part on his account by his own admission. Take a step back from Namekian Dragon Balls being the cosmic band-aid and Buu having nothing to offer because the series stakes cannot believably get any higher and think about how new that situation actually was for him for a moment. There's no pretext left to fight for, no "If I lose this battle Vegeta does what he pleases" no "If I let Freeza live, he'll ravage the entire universe." Because its already over, he made a decision, one that put his long-term interests over a more sure shot at killing Buu, and now not only was it the wrong one, but Buu is both profiting from it and is now self-aware enough to understand and parrot back the scope of his failure. Then Kid Buu blows up the rock itself, and any sense of control over its destiny that we know Goku had built up to that point goes with it, at least for the moment.

Part of the topic theory is an interesting attempt to explain why Goku can suddenly feel something akin to Vegeta's humiliation. Well, wasn't he, in a way? He asserts himself through choosing the potential of Gotenks over himself, only for his opening to slip away in Buu's first transformation and Gotenks only going on to further powering him? He's going to be mad. He's going to want some way to tell Super Buu he hasn't won the ballgame yet because he has, he's going to be short-tempered with Kid Buu for sleeping off destroying the Earth like any old rock. Goku swears revenge on Freeza for a race he'll never really meet and a race whose extinction he actually believed to be just; how does he not lose his composure when what he does care about dies?

Showing off against Buu in the last battle? All I see is "Shoot! The little bastard took my world and yet my first habit is- same as always- to use him as a yardstick for my newest power; what's wrong with me?" You seemed to read my statement like I was denying Goku was being a brat, nothing of the sort. I merely argue Goku went to that dark place because he never had before and was too immature to handle it. In which case, Goku would turn into Vegeta not because his mind rubbed off on him after the fusion split, but because for once in his life Goku genuinely "pulled a Vegeta", and actually suffered the consequences for once.

In that light, Vegeta's situation is made even better still, as not only has he recently had a strong realization of what he actually stands to lose- after Goku takes him out of himself for a moment prior to fusing, of course- but that he sat out on the rest of the fight up to his reentry. His mind is simply much clearer.