What was 18 thinking when she used so much power?

[RandomGuy96]

As any strength debate obsessed fan knows, even after BOG had Beerus state Freeza is stronger than the base Saiyans, some fans still don't buy it. They make up excuses to dismiss Beerus, because they think the manga shows that the base Saiyans are stronger than Freeza. By far the most common piece of evidence I see brought up in favor of that argument is "Mighty Mask's" fight with 18 at the tournament, before Goten and Trunks went Super Saiyan. This actually got me curious enough to re-read the battle to see if there was something I missed, because I thought that it was plain that 18 was easily winning, even when it looked like she was holding back.

Now, for a moment, let's just ignore power level gaps or ratios, percentages, base Saiyan vs Freeza debates, all of that crap. This topic revolves solely around this one fight, and one inconsistency in it. Basically: why did 18 use so much power on Mighty Mask before she figured out he was strong?

The very first exchange between 18 and base Trunks/Goten features her charging directly at them and launching a series of punches. She doesn't damage them or anything, but two things stick out: one, Trunks actually has to block these punches instead of tanking them, and two, his facial expression (serious eyes and barred teeth) indicate that he's exerting effort just to do that. So, no matter what you think about how much power 18 was using in the fight, her very first attacks were strong enough to make Trunks exert effort. She didn't know that Mighty Mask was anything but a regular human at first. So why did she begin with an offensive strong enough to turn a regular human into paste, when she was explicitly told to hold back by Krillin AND wanted to win the money, which she couldn't if she killed anyone?

As the fight goes on, this situation just gets weirder. 18 continues to use juuuuust the right amount of power for Trunks to barely hold his ground by blocking, but not be able to land a hit in turn. Eventually, she lands one hit on Mighty Mask, but it doesn't really damage him. Keep in mind that 18 can't sense ki at this time, and back at the beginning of the tournament she had a very hard time suppressing her power to the right level:

Kuririn: “Hey, don’t put too much power into it! You’ll break the machine.”
No.18: “I know.” *she hits it*
Referee guy: “Se-se-se-774!? I-I’m sorry, it seems to be malfunctioning! Wait a minute."
Kuririn: “That’s why I told you not to overdo it!”
No.18: “Be quiet! It’s hard to hold back!”
Referee guy: “It-it seems to be fixed. Try again. *she hits again* …203 points…!?”

So what gives? Even if you're part of the crowd that believes she was just using her full power after seeing how strong Mighty Mask was, why is it that she seemingly used just as much power in her first assault, before she knew how strong he was? How did she know that she could use her full power against Mighty Mask without killing him so early on, or did she just randomly decide to use all of her power and hope for the best? Because there's a lot of levels between Android 18 and a regular human that Mighty Mask could have been at. Like Bandit Yamcha level. If you're part of the crowd that thinks she was just suppressed: one, the "why did she use enough power to give Trunks trouble and pulp the regular human she thought she was fighting?" issue still applies. Two, since she can't sense ki, how did she know exactly the right amount of power to use for that situation, and why did she keep using it rather than going a bit higher and instantly knocking Mighty Mask out?

I personally it might be best just to write this whole thing off as a gag fight.

[Kaboom]

Well, for one, unless there's something I'm forgetting, do we know for sure that Eighteen can't sense ki here? If she can, then she might have been able to tell that "Mighty Mask" was someone much stronger than a normal human, even if the kids were at in a rested or suppressed-ish state.

But other than that, I checked the manga and she seems to somehow get her first hint at their strength when they knock out Killa immediately after the battle royal starts.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.2
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn't anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”

So I guess that one punch against a normal human was enough to clue her in that she could use at least a little more power? Then maybe it was simply trial and error for her from there.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Maybe she can sense ki. I don't recall any case in the manga, but I recall at least 2 cases in the anime showing her sensing ki (once in Boo arc, saying that she never felt a ki like this when Vegeta destroyed killed the audience in the TB, and another time in the JSAT Special, noting Tarble's ki). It's not very hard to believe after all, since it seems that Kuririn taught her Kienzan, so maybe he taught her more tricks than that.

[DarkPrince_92]

You say she can't control her powers well, but are confused why she didn't hold back against Mighty Mask? I'm lost.

Well like Kaboom said, she must have had some idea how strong Mighty Mask based off of that one punch he threw and how easily he knocked out his opponent. I'd say she was cautious.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, for one, unless there's something I'm forgetting, do we know for sure that Eighteen can't sense ki here? If she can, then she might have been able to tell that "Mighty Mask" was someone much stronger than a normal human, even if the kids were at in a rested or suppressed-ish state.

But other than that, I checked the manga and she seems to somehow get her first hint at their strength when they knock out Killa immediately after the battle royal starts.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P12.2
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn't anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”

So I guess that one punch against a normal human was enough to clue her in that she could use at least a little more power? Then maybe it was simply trial and error for her from there.

If she can sense ki, a bunch of scenes stop making sense, like her having trouble holding back, and her being confident in taking the SS kids before they fired a suppressed ki blast.

I just interpreted that as her noting that this guy's proportions didn't make any sense. His arms shouldn't have been that small, and his torso is unusually long. I don't think that she saw that and was suddenly able to deduce that she should use exactly the amount of power that she used- assuming she can suppress herself to that level on the first try, even if she did think Mighty Mask wasn't ordinary. I don't think the full power or suppression theories really fit the scene.

Maybe she can sense ki. I don't recall any case in the manga, but I recall at least 2 cases in the anime showing her sensing ki (once in Boo arc, saying that she never felt a ki like this when Vegeta destroyed killed the audience in the TB, and another time in the JSAT Special, noting Tarble's ki). It's not very hard to believe after all, since it seems that Kuririn taught her Kienzan, so maybe he taught her more tricks than that.

If she could sense ki, she would immediately know who Mighty Mask was without having to fight him, see him fight, or witness a transformation, and she'd either be extremely worried that mere base Saiyans can match her, or use a bit more power to one-shot them.

You say she can't control her powers well, but are confused why she didn't hold back against Mighty Mask? I'm lost.

I'm confused as to why she'd use base Trunks levels of power against what she thought was an ordinary human, rather than using the same level she used all tournament, as well as how and why she used exactly as much power as she did.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If she could sense ki, she would immediately know who Mighty Mask was without having to fight him, see him fight, or witness a transformation, and she'd either be extremely worried that mere base Saiyans can match her, or use a bit more power to one-shot them.

Oh yeah, that's true.

So, I watched the fight again, and #18 noticed that he was stronger than normal before their fight even started, by watching how easily he defeated Killer. Then, it was Mighty Mask that attacked her first. So, she should have an idea from these about how strong he is, and how much strength she should use so that she wouldn't kill him.

[RandomGuy96]

If she could sense ki, she would immediately know who Mighty Mask was without having to fight him, see him fight, or witness a transformation, and she'd either be extremely worried that mere base Saiyans can match her, or use a bit more power to one-shot them.

Oh yeah, that's true.

So, I watched the fight again, and #18 noticed that he was stronger than normal before their fight even started, by watching how easily he defeated Killer. Then, it was Mighty Mask that attacked her first. So, she should have an idea from these about how strong he is, and how much strength she should use so that she wouldn't kill him.

Mighty Mask ran at her, but she threw the first punch. I'm not sure how seeing Mighty Mask beat Killer would really tip her off to his strength unless she could sense ki (and I think it's clear she can't), especially when you consider how much trouble she has suppressing herself to a specific level, so I just took it as a statement that "Mighty Mask"'s proportions made no sense for a guy that strong.

[Kaboom]

The fight DOES focus on Mr. Satan for a few panels between when we see Mighty Mask charge Eighteen and when Eighteen is shown on the offensive. Maybe that first unseen volley was enough for Eighteen to get a rough estimate of how much power to start with, then steadily escalate.

[rereboy]

The fight DOES focus on Mr. Satan for a few panels between when we see Mighty Mask charge Eighteen and when Eighteen is shown on the offensive. Maybe that first unseen volley was enough for Eighteen to get a rough estimate of how much power to start with, then steadily escalate.

I think this is right. The first blows we see of the fight might not have been the very first blows of the fight. Mighty Mask might have attacked #18 while we, the readers, were focused on Mr. Satan and then, when we see them, #18 is already responding proportionately.

[RandomGuy96]

The fight DOES focus on Mr. Satan for a few panels between when we see Mighty Mask charge Eighteen and when Eighteen is shown on the offensive. Maybe that first unseen volley was enough for Eighteen to get a rough estimate of how much power to start with, then steadily escalate.

Possibly. But how did she know exactly how much power to use to not kill Trunks when she had trouble holding back earlier? It's not like she can sense ki. Plus, why not just put out a little more power to instantly defeat Mighty Mask?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think she needs to sense Chi in order to gauge the opponents power in relation to her own. She likely gained an understanding of Trunks's power after fighting him a bit--then used whatever power was necessary during the battle.

[rereboy]

The fight DOES focus on Mr. Satan for a few panels between when we see Mighty Mask charge Eighteen and when Eighteen is shown on the offensive. Maybe that first unseen volley was enough for Eighteen to get a rough estimate of how much power to start with, then steadily escalate.

Possibly. But how did she know exactly how much power to use to not kill Trunks when she had trouble holding back earlier? It's not like she can sense ki. Plus, why not just put out a little more power to instantly defeat Mighty Mask?

You might as well ask that question regarding the human she knocked out before fighting Trunks, if she indeed has trouble controlling herself. Assuming that the first blows weren't shown, we might as well also assume that #18 stopped Mighty Mask's attack, judged the power of that attack, and attacked him with proportional force, gradually increasing her blows as the fight went on.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Mighty Mask ran at her, but she threw the first punch. I'm not sure how seeing Mighty Mask beat Killer would really tip her off to his strength unless she could sense ki (and I think it's clear she can't), especially when you consider how much trouble she has suppressing herself to a specific level, so I just took it as a statement that "Mighty Mask"'s proportions made no sense for a guy that strong.

Like Kaboom said, we don't see the beginning of their fight because it focused on Mr. Satan. We see Mighty Mask attacking first, then it shows Mr. Satan, and then it shows that the fight has already begun.

[Pantalones]

She was able to hold back enough to not destroy the punching machine the first time, then held back enough that she only measured in the 200s which is not that far beyond Mr. Satan's level... so her being able to hold back enough to not kill ordinary human fighters is believable. Mr. Satan's blows don't seem to be "instant death to adult human fighters" level, just enough to knock out low-level fighters in a few hits... so her "holding back enough to seem normal" level being 70 points over him on the punch-o-meter shouldn't put her into the "killing these guys with a single punch" range, either.

I figure it's like what's been said here--"Mighty Mask" attacked her first while their fight was offscreen, and she started holding back less after that point, matching the level of strength that Goten/Trunks were using (and continuing to escalate in power as the kids did, easily keeping up the whole time and only getting worried when they went Super Saiyan and then fired a ki blast.)

[TheUltimateVegito]

If she could sense ki, she would immediately know who Mighty Mask was without having to fight him, see him fight, or witness a transformation, and she'd either be extremely worried that mere base Saiyans can match her, or use a bit more power to one-shot them.

Maybe her sensing abilities are different since she's an android.

[Hitiro]

The problem with this is we don't know how much strength it takes to kill a regular human. For all we know 700-800 is the level of a punch Goku and the gang used in the budokai's(pre-Saiyan saga) to ring out and knock out the fodder? 18 my have had a hard time suppressing her power for the machine. But that doesn't mean she can't keep her strength to a level that wouldn't kill someone because we have no idea what the ceiling of strength would be classified as killing power. For all we know the amount of strength exerted to kill someone would be twice or three times 18's initial punch. Mr. Satan with his 200 odd points is not high enough for him to easily KO someone. He would only have a slight advantage against any ordinary fighter which would have the fight last a good while.

[Mjb1985]

Some points I find interesting.

Check out 18's face when she comments about how Mighty Mask packs a powerful punch with those little arms. She seems pretty serious while thinking that to herself.

Right after that, Trunks is telling Goten to be careful because he heard 18 was stronger than their dads at one point. I find it pretty interesting that the kids know that 18 used to be stronger than their fathers, yet still decide to fight her in Base. One could dismiss that as we later see that Gotenks decides to fight both Fat and Super Buu in Base as well. But I do find it interesting.

So after all parties involve show they have concerned thoughts about their opponent, they stare each other down. The mood is set and it looks like this is going to be an interesting battle.

As the boys go to attack 18, 18 takes a defensive posture and makes some sort of " WSH " noise? Don't really know what that means, but it does appear she is taking this fight seriously.

We miss the boys initial attack on 18, but we get caught back on the fight when 18 has turned to the offensive. 18's face seems to express that she is indeed trying and the fight seems to play out with 18 putting them on the defensive, the boys and 18 trading equally and then 18 going back on the offensive once again.

The boys are on the defensive, yet the main thing Trunks keeps complaining about is their inability to move. For 18 to land a signficant hit, she outmaneuvers them. She flies above him and is able to land a double axe handle smash on Trunks. Previously, 18 hadn't been able to land anything significant, but was only able to put Trunks on the defensive.

Trunks seems to bounce back from the hit very quickly and without any damage.

18 fires a ki blast, to which Trunks freaks out about. Trunks confirms that they will never win this way.

In Trunks mind at this point, it seems to be the boys inability to move that is the reason they cannot win. I don't get the feeling that Trunks feels he is hopelessly outclassed or anything like that.

This is Viz but I find it interesting.

18- " What a weirdo... His limbs are too small for his body... But he's so strong... "

I don't see any indication that 18 thinks that she could easily beat Mighty Mask or any sign that 18 thinks he would be an easy opponent to defeat. Not exactly relevant, but 18 never gave Super Saiyan Vegeta anywhere near the amount of respect she gives Mighty Mask. Two different circumstances and two different mentalities considering the time periods, it's still something worth noting imo.


The boys go Super Saiyan and 18 is shocked. I don't believe this is because she can sense ki, but she shocked to see this weird creature transform into Super Saiyan. Perhaps the Super Saiyan aura or something is super specific? I don't know.

After going Super Saiyan, the boys say they are still at a disadvantage and they want to go with ki blasts.

As I said before, the disadvantage seems to be their inability to move. The power differences don't seem to be the issue and it's 18 who walks away from their initial clash feeling the opponent is strong. The boys seemed to expect 18 to be a challenge from the get go.

So as I've been saying, I don't really see anything that suggests the boys Base Power isn't challenging to 18 and vice versa. I think they are all around the same general area based on the mood and context of their fight.

[rereboy]

#18 is surprised that he is so strong because no human should be nowhere near that strong excluding the gang. That's all.

Also, #18 isn't more effective fighting him simply because his movements are so awkward. That's what she complains about. If he was more conventional in his movements, she would be far more effective.

As for the kids fighting in base, even though its not explicitly said, they were trying to conceal who they were. Going super saiyan could reveal them, which is exactly what happened in the end. That's why they tried to fight her at base first but when they concluded that it was indeed hopeless they risked going super saiyan.

[Mjb1985]

Agreed. 18 realizes that Mighty Mask is no ordinary human immediately. 18 is confused how an unheard of being with a weird body is able to fight evenly with her. As we can see, the boys never consider 18 as a superior power, they are just unable to move properly in a situation like that. Imagine if you were on someone's shoulders and trying to fight someone on your level. It would be nearly impossible. You probably wouldn't last very long at all. Trunks is able to block majority of 18's punches with just hand speed alone. Zero mobility. That's quite impressive. If anything, the fight could suggest the boys are stronger than her in base, by a good margin. But in general, I get the feeling they are more or less evenly matched. 18 never considers Mighty Mask an easy opponent and the only time she shows any sort of positive reaction is when she realizes who they were. Her running into some weirdo with this level of power is baffling to her. So she has her " Aha ! " moment. Isn't their a Daizenshuu entry that notes that Trunks was able to fight 18 evenly as well?

[Darkron2151]

If Android 18 can sense ki, then wouldn't she have been able to tell that there was not just one, but two ki signatures that were fighting in front of her? Granted, one could make the assumption that Goten was suppressing himself while Trunks went all out, but that doesn't seem likely due to Goten maneuvering through the air like he did, while also flying in order to dodge the ki blast from 18 before they turned into Super Saiyans. Plus they were both practically in the heat of the moment while fighting 18 since they were both not only under pressure by 18's offensive, but also not being able to move properly while being disguised. So either one suppressing themselves through all that seems highly unlikely.