Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not buying that slicing through Pan would soften up the attack enough that Vegeta could survive it. This attack was portrayed as super powerful in the past.

I guess the Super Cell Jr will finish him off.

[TonyTheTiger]

It does look like a deeper cut than would be survivable but I like the snarky "Vegeta's blade" so I'm ok with this.

[rereboy]

I'm not buying that slicing through Pan would soften up the attack enough that Vegeta could survive it. This attack was portrayed as super powerful in the past.

I guess the Super Cell Jr will finish him off.

If Dragon Ball filler can have Cell tank a Kienzan like its nothing when no one had ever even resisted it even a little, DBM can have a completely new and original attack (that is not even based on Ki but on technology) lose its cutting effectiveness after cutting down a powerful opponent. In the past, this attack also certainly lost most of its effectiveness after cutting Uub, but it didn't hit anyone else.

[FoolsGil]

Still alive, mortally wounded though, His power should reasonably drop, right? at least drop him out of SSJ2? Well, he should be soft enough for Cell Jr to kill, right?

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not buying that slicing through Pan would soften up the attack enough that Vegeta could survive it. This attack was portrayed as super powerful in the past.

I guessing Super Cell Jr will finish him off.

If Dragon Ball filler can have Cell tank a Kienzan like its nothing when no one had ever even resisted it even a little, DBM can have a completely new and original attack (that is not even based on Ki but on technology) lose its cutting effectiveness after cutting down a powerful opponent. In the past, this attack also certainly lost most of its effectiveness after cutting Uub, but it didn't hit anyone else.

Why are you trying to use filler to defend DBM?

Anyway, there was nothing wrong with that, as it was never indicated at any point that a Kienzan could cut through someone that much stronger than the user. It was never implied Krillin could even kill base Goku with it. The same can't be said for this attack. It has sliced through things much, MUCH stronger than Vegeta. So I don't buy that having one weak opponent take it first would soften it up enough for Vegeta to survive.

[rereboy]

I'm not buying that slicing through Pan would soften up the attack enough that Vegeta could survive it. This attack was portrayed as super powerful in the past.

I guessing Super Cell Jr will finish him off.

If Dragon Ball filler can have Cell tank a Kienzan like its nothing when no one had ever even resisted it even a little, DBM can have a completely new and original attack (that is not even based on Ki but on technology) lose its cutting effectiveness after cutting down a powerful opponent. In the past, this attack also certainly lost most of its effectiveness after cutting Uub, but it didn't hit anyone else.

Why are you trying to use filler to defend DBM?

Anyway, there was nothing wrong with that, as it was never indicated at any point that a Kienzan could cut through someone that much stronger than the user. It was never implied Krillin could even kill base Goku with it. The same can't be said for this attack. It has sliced through things much, MUCH stronger than Vegeta. So I don't buy that having one weak opponent take it first would soften it up enough for Vegeta to survive.

To demonstrate that its a perfectly valid and logical idea. And I'm not "defending", I don't take sides. I just don't see a significant difference between the two cases.

Nothing had been stated or implied regarding limits and the Kienzan, and nothing had never been stated or implied regarding limits and God's blade, but then, filler introduced a limit by showing that Cell could resist Krillin's Kienzan and then later showing that SSJ2 Gohan could resist two Kienzans by Cell, and DBM introduced the idea that God's blade loses effectiveness when it cuts trough someone powerful.

Pan was powerful enough to dull the attack just enough so that SSJ2 Vegeta wouldn't receive a killing blow, but Uub was just not powerful enough to not get his arm cut off without the blade being dulled first. That just means that the blade is powerful enough by itself to cut someone in the SSJ3/Fat Buu range, but if its dulled first by cutting someone powerful, even if that someone is just a SSJ1, then a SSj2 has a good chance to survive the attack. That's all.

[goku the krump dancer]

Pan was powerful enough to dull the attack just enough so that SSJ2 Vegeta wouldn't receive a killing blow, but Uub was just not powerful enough to not get his arm cut off without the blade being dulled first. That just means that the blade is powerful enough by itself to cut someone in the SSJ3/Fat Buu range, but if its dulled first by cutting someone powerful, even if that someone is just a SSJ1, then a SSj2 has a good chance to survive the attack. That's all.

And that makes enough sense to me, God's Blade is already a made up DBM technique so its definitely effected by any rules Salagir wants to apply to it.

[Fionordequester]

And that makes enough sense to me, God's Blade is already a made up DBM technique so its definitely effected by any rules Salagir wants to apply to it.

Agreed. Plus, you have to remember, Vegeta is also wearing body armor, so there's that to consider as well... Although I do wonder if Vegeta actually WILL survive the fight, or if he's just going to die from blood loss as soon as it's over.

[RandomGuy96]

To demonstrate that its a perfectly valid and logical idea. And I'm not "defending", I don't take sides. I just don't see a significant difference between the two cases.

Nothing had been stated or implied regarding limits and the Kienzan, and nothing had never been stated or implied regarding limits and God's blade, but then, filler introduced a limit by showing that Cell could resist Krillin's Kienzan and then later showing that SSJ2 Gohan could resist two Kienzans by Cell, and DBM introduced the idea that God's blade loses effectiveness when it cuts trough someone powerful.

Pan was powerful enough to dull the attack just enough so that SSJ2 Vegeta wouldn't receive a killing blow, but Uub was just not powerful enough to not get his arm cut off without the blade being dulled first. That just means that the blade is powerful enough by itself to cut someone in the SSJ3/Fat Buu range, but if its dulled first by cutting someone powerful, even if that someone is just a SSJ1, then a SSj2 has a good chance to survive the attack. That's all.

No, you very obviously take sides 90% of the time.

There was no limit, but there was no limit established for, say, the Big Bang Attack either. That doesn't mean it'll automatically blow up everything.

Didn't it also cut through the same barriers that Broly couldn't? Either way, SS Pan is extremely weak compared to Uub. I still don't buy her alone almost completely negating the attack.

[rereboy]

To demonstrate that its a perfectly valid and logical idea. And I'm not "defending", I don't take sides. I just don't see a significant difference between the two cases.

Nothing had been stated or implied regarding limits and the Kienzan, and nothing had never been stated or implied regarding limits and God's blade, but then, filler introduced a limit by showing that Cell could resist Krillin's Kienzan and then later showing that SSJ2 Gohan could resist two Kienzans by Cell, and DBM introduced the idea that God's blade loses effectiveness when it cuts trough someone powerful.

Pan was powerful enough to dull the attack just enough so that SSJ2 Vegeta wouldn't receive a killing blow, but Uub was just not powerful enough to not get his arm cut off without the blade being dulled first. That just means that the blade is powerful enough by itself to cut someone in the SSJ3/Fat Buu range, but if its dulled first by cutting someone powerful, even if that someone is just a SSJ1, then a SSj2 has a good chance to survive the attack. That's all.

No, you very obviously take sides 90% of the time.

There was no limit, but there was no limit established for, say, the Big Bang Attack either. That doesn't mean it'll automatically blow up everything.

Didn't it also cut through the same barriers that Broly couldn't? Either way, SS Pan is extremely weak compared to Uub. I still don't buy her alone almost completely negating the attack.

Think whatever you want to think. The only side I take is the side of logic and fairness. If I happen to disagree with you, is simply because I don't think you are looking at things logically and fairly.

Want an example of that? You mention the Big Bang attack. That attack quite obviously works like most attacks in the series, its a ki attack that explodes. Time and time again we have seen that those type of attacks can't destroy everything and have defined limits of power tied to the fighter who uses them. Yet you put it on par with the likes of the Kienzan, which is a completely atypical Ki attack in how it works in the series as its consistently demonstrated. So, I once again, I don't think you are being logical and fair, doesn't have anything to do with taking sides.

Want yet another example? You mention that it cut through the barrier of the arena, while Broly couldn't. Well, first it wasn't God's blade that did that, it was that "finger cutter" from their elite armors that did that and we have no idea what kind of differences the two have. Secondly, we also have no idea how the barrier exactly works, if it works by filtering out Ki-like energy and similar, it perfectly explains why it doesn't do anything to stop technological-type energy like the one those guys seem to use. So, I once again, I don't think you are being logical and fair, doesn't have anything to do with taking sides.

If anyone seems to be taking sides is you and your apparent bias towards DBM that seems to compel you to assume the worst about DBM and focus on that, instead of thinking and considering things logically and fairly.

[RandomGuy96]

Want an example of that? You mention the Big Bang attack. That attack quite obviously works like most attacks in the series, its a ki attack that explodes. Time and time again we have seen that those type of attacks can't destroy anything and have defined limits of power tied to the fighter who uses them. Yet you put it on par with the likes of the Kienzan, which is a completely atypical Ki attack in how it works in the series as its consistently demonstrated. So, I once again, I don't think you are being logical and fair, doesn't have anything to do with taking sides.

"It's a ki attack that pierces through the target. Time and time again we have seen that these types of attacks can't destroy anything and have defined limits of power tied to the fighter who uses them".

We don't explicitly see the Kienzan fail, but we don't have any indication that it wouldn't fail, either. Just like how we never see the Big Bang Attack fail to blow anyone up. Does that mean we should assume the Big Bang Attack could kill anything? It working essentially the same way in basic effect (blowing the enemy up) doesn't mean it's the same technique, or that it's just as effective as other exploding techniques. The Kienzan isn't that special; it's a ki attack shaped to cut things, by putting energy into a small point. Tons of other characters have attacks that do that instead of just exploding. It is never implied to be a one-hit-kill wonder move in all situations. Its very best feat is that it was apparently enough to slice through (or at least damage) 2nd form Freeza, while Krillin was still weaker than 1st form Freeza (but strong enough to help against him). We also see ki-enhanced swords fail to cut through enemies numerous times.

Want yet another example? You mention that it cut through the barrier of the arena, while Broly couldn't. Well, first it wasn't God's blade that did that, it was that "finger cutter" from their elite armors that did that and we have no idea what kind of differences the two have

Which is why I asked for clarification.

So, I once again, I don't think you are being logical and fair, doesn't have anything to do with taking sides.

Even discounting the barrier, I still don't see how an attack that can cut right through the SS3-tier Uub would be at all hindered by cutting through Pan. He could have just had the Super Cell Jr use his energy cutter if he really wanted to have this scene.

[rereboy]

"It's a ki attack that pierces through the target. Time and time again we have seen that these types of attacks can't destroy anything and have defined limits of power tied to the fighter who uses them".

We don't explicitly see the Kienzan fail, but we don't have any indication that it wouldn't fail, either. Just like how we never see the Big Bang Attack fail to blow anyone up. Does that mean we should assume the Big Bang Attack could kill anything? It working essentially the same way in basic effect (blowing the enemy up) doesn't mean it's the same technique, or that it's just as effective as other exploding techniques. The Kienzan isn't that special; it's a ki attack shaped to cut things, by putting energy into a small point. Tons of other characters have attacks that do that instead of just exploding. It is never implied to be a one-hit-kill wonder move in all situations. Its very best feat is that it was apparently enough to slice through (or at least damage) 2nd form Freeza, while Krillin was still weaker than 1st form Freeza (but strong enough to help against him). We also see ki-enhanced swords fail to cut through enemies numerous times.

I'm sorry, but that's just denying or twisting facts. Kienzan is shown to be effective without any hint of losing its effectiveness against DRAMATICALLY stronger opponents against which no other Ki attack would work. Its limits of effectiveness are clearly an exception compared to other Ki attacks. Comparing it to Big Bang attack or any other conventional exploding Ki attack regarding limits is just illogical.

Even discounting the barrier, I still don't see how an attack that can cut right through the SS3-tier Uub would be at all hindered by cutting through Pan. He could have just had the Super Cell Jr use his energy cutter if he really wanted to have this scene.

So, you are criticizing it because a technological cutting attack invented by the DBM's authors has a greater percentage of decay in its effectiveness after cutting a powerful target like Pan than you would give it if you were the author? That is just not being fair.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm sorry, but that's just denying or twisting facts. Kienzan is shown to be effective without any hint of losing its effectiveness against DRAMATICALLY stronger opponents against which no other Ki attack would work. Its limits of effectiveness are clearly an exception compared to other Ki attacks.

Evidence? I didn't see anyone try to use a Big Bang Attack against Nappa or Freeza. Maybe it would have worked.

Why are the Kienzan's theoretical limits so completely different? It's not that impressive. Krillin sliced Freeza's tail off (a weak spot, that he hit when Freeza was off-guard), made him concerned enough to dodge the other ones rather than tank them, and almost killed Nappa, who was not many times stronger than him. Aside from that, we never saw the Kienzan do anything of note, and I bet that, say, a SBC in the same scenarios would have done the same thing.

Comparing it to Big Bang attack or any other conventional exploding Ki attack regarding limits is just illogical.

Why? Apparently, we can't compare the Kienzan to other attacks that cut or pierce and are shown to have limits (Makansappotomus, Death Beam, Trunks' sword, Dabra's sword) so why does the Big Bang Attack automatically have to be given limits it was never shown to have just because of the similarities to the effects of other techniques? Just because the Big Bang Attack creates an explosion doesn't mean it works exactly like, say, a Kamehameha.

So, you are criticizing it because a technological cutting attack invented by the DBM's authors has a greater percentage of decay in its effectiveness after cutting a powerful target like Pan than you would give it if you were the author? That is just not being fair.

No, I'm saying that I don't find it plausible that cutting through Pan would take away almost all of its power when it was strong enough to cut through Uub (unless Uub is just really, really weak compared to Fat Buu and Pure Buu, and Pan was able to soften it up just the tiniest bit so it didn't cut a bit deeper and kill Vegeta).

[rereboy]

Evidence? I didn't see anyone try to use a Big Bang Attack against Nappa or Freeza. Maybe it would have worked.

Why are the Kienzan's theoretical limits so completely different? It's not that impressive. Krillin sliced Freeza's tail off (a weak spot, that he hit when Freeza was off-guard), made him concerned enough to dodge the other ones rather than tank them, and almost killed Nappa, who was not many times stronger than him. Aside from that, we never saw the Kienzan do anything of note, and I bet that, say, a SBC in the same scenarios would have done the same thing.

Its demonstrated and implied that Nappa, Oozaru Vegeta and Freeza would have been cut and killed by the attack it they didn't dodge and they were so dramatically superior to Krillin that no other conventional Ki attack by Krillin could even have hurt them.

Big Bang attack, however, is not demonstrated or implied to have any special effectiveness against dramatically stronger opponents.

Why? Apparently, we can't compare the Kienzan to other attacks that cut or pierce and are shown to have limits (Makansappotomus, Death Beam, Trunks' sword, Dabra's sword) so why does the Big Bang Attack automatically have to be given limits it was never shown to have just because of the similarities to the effects of other techniques?

Because we never see it work against a dramatically stronger opponent, so there's no reason to assume its an exception like Kienzan is. You have it backwards. If something is not demonstrated to be an exception to the typical rules, then the only logical assumption is that it follows the rules. To assume the opposite is clearly illogical. Kienzan was shown to be a clear exception. Big Bang attack was not.

No, I'm saying that I don't find it plausible that cutting through Pan would take away almost all of its power when it was strong enough to cut through Uub. It only needed to go a little bit deeper to kill Vegeta.

You are saying exactly what I said you were saying. And you are doing it regarding an attack that doesn't exist in the manga and that's not even based on the same power system of the attacks of the manga (ki).

[RandomGuy96]

Its demonstrated and implied that Nappa, Oozaru Vegeta and Freeza would have been cut and killed by the attack it they didn't dodge and they were so dramatically superior to Krillin that no other conventional Ki attack by Krillin could even have hurt them.

Big Bang attack, however, is not demonstrated or implied to have any special effectiveness against dramatically stronger opponents.

Nappa, yes. Freeza, not really (it wasn't confirmed or heavily implied he'd actually die if he was hit). Oozaru Vegeta, yes, but only his tail. Which isn't impressive, since even Yajirobe could cut Oozaru Vegeta's tail. We also don't know that Freeza and Nappa were THAT much stronger than Krillin; Goku's Kamehameha at the beginning of the series could raise his power by more than x2.22. For all we know, Krillin could have produced a similar attack, and it would have been enough to significantly damage Nappa or Freeza.

19 had just absorbed a shit load of Vegeta's energy, so much that he couldn't even take #20 after. Also, if you want to play that card, would the Final Flash not be the most powerful attack ever? We only saw it used once, and it went right through someone way stronger than the user.

Because we never see it work against a dramatically stronger opponent, so there's no reason to assume its an exception like Kienzan is.

Technically speaking, we never see the Kienzan do that, either (unless you count Freeza getting hit off guard in a weak spot).

You have it backwards. If something is not demonstrated to be an exception to the typical rules, then the only logical assumption is that it follows the rules. To assume the opposite is clearly illogical. Kienzan was shown to be clear exception. Big Bang attack was not.

What "rules"? That exploding attacks can't work like that? How do you know that the Big Bang Attack couldn't kill anything?

Saying it can kill anything is just as illogical as saying the Kienzan can. It was never shown to be a one-hit-kill wonder move in every situation. People who say it is are completely pulling it out of nowhere, based solely on the fact that we never saw it get tanked.

You are saying exactly what I said you were saying. And you are doing it regarding an attack that doesn't exist in the manga and that's not even based on the same power system of the attacks of the manga (ki).

No, you said I was saying that I hated it because I would have written it differently if I was the author of DBM. I don't like it because I find it implausible that the attack would lose so much power from cutting through a weakling.

[rereboy]

Nappa, yes. Freeza, not really (it wasn't confirmed or heavily implied he'd actually die if he was hit). Oozaru Vegeta, yes, but only his tail. Which isn't impressive, since even Yajirobe could cut Oozaru Vegeta's tail. We also don't know that Freeza and Nappa were THAT much stronger than Krillin; Goku's Kamehameha at the beginning of the series could raise his power by more than x2.22. For all we know, Krillin could have produced a similar attack, and it would have been enough to significantly damage Nappa or Freeza.

19 had just absorbed a shit load of Vegeta's energy, so much that he couldn't even take #20 after. Also, if you want to play that card, would the Final Flash not be the most powerful attack ever? We only saw it used once, and it went right through someone way stronger than the user.

Freeza's dodge proved that he (and the author) thought he was in serious danger. Previously he had just tanked attacks without worry, for example, Vegeta's attack just a few moments before.

Krillin's Kienzan wasn't aimed just at Vegeta's tail, he didn't throw it from the side which would get only his tail. He threw from behind and if he hit, it would hit his tail and his torso.

And, wow, are you actually suggesting that Krillin's Kienzan could have made his BP reach as high or higher than Vegeta's BP in his previous attack to Freeza, and that Freeza just tanked?

Final Flash is clearly similar to Makankosappo and Ki-ko-oh. Its a technique for a Ki blast that raises power or makes the blast more effective beyond the normal limits of other ki blasts. But its never shown to be an exception to the rules like Kienzan is. Not to mention that, at the time, Cell was using a level of power that was not DRAMATICALLY superior to Vegeta, since Cell admitted himself that Trunks had more power than him when he transformed. Meaning that Cell was at a power level between Vegeta and Trunks, which was enough to beat Vegeta without trouble, especially after he had tired himself with the Final Flash, but doesn't make him dramatically superior to Vegeta like Freeza was to Krillin, or Oozaru Vegeta was to Krillin or maybe even Nappa was to Krillin (Nappa was, what, 3, 4 times stronger than Krillin? Unless you assume for whatever reason that Trunks is like 5 or 4 times stronger than Vegeta since he had more power than Cell at the time, which would essentially be saying that Grade 3 gives 5 or 4 times more power than Grade 2, Cell wouldn't have 4 or 3 times Vegeta's power at the time).

You are just ignoring and interpreting things to suit your viewpoint. Kienzan is CLEARLY demonstrated to be an exception in terms of effectiveness compared to any other kind of Ki attack. This is clear as day and your insistence on this matter is as illogical as your argument.

Technically speaking, we never see the Kienzan do that, either (unless you count Freeza getting hit off guard in a weak spot).

What happens and the reactions of the characters clearly dictate what would happen if it hit. No such thing exists for the Big Bang Attack.

What "rules"? That exploding attacks can't work like that? How do you know that the Big Bang Attack couldn't kill anything?

The rules that we get from all the times we see a character easily resist or tank all the Ki attacks of an opponent that is dramatically inferior to himself. The fact that you somehow "forgot" how that works for the purpose of this discussion speaks volumes.

Saying it can kill anything is just as illogical as saying the Kienzan can. It was never shown to be a one-hit-kill wonder move in every situation. People who say it is are completely pulling it out of nowhere, based solely on the fact that we never saw it get tanked.

Oh, right, the reaction of the characters and what happens and their insistence on dodging every time that technique is used, no matter how big the difference in power is between the users, has nothing to do with that. Clearly is FAR more logical for an attack that was used a few times without any hint of being an exception in effectiveness compared to the other kinds of attack to be assumed to be as effective as Kienzan which had his exceptional effectiveness demonstrated.

No, you said I was saying that I hated it because I would have written it differently if I was the author of DBM. I don't like it because I find it implausible that the attack would lose so much power from cutting through a weakling.

First, I didn't say you hated it, I said you criticized it. Secondly, if you don't agree with it or find it implausible, then, if for some reason you were the author of DBM, you obviously would make it differently. How is that not coherent with what you said...? At this point you are clearly just arguing to argue. The discussion has reached a point that you are simply arguing just to not give in regarding anything I say. Your willingness to get to that point and the fact that this discussion has reached that point from the very simple initial point of discussion makes this discussion a waste of time, so I'll be leaving it like this. Like I said previously, think whatever you want to think.

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza's dodge proved that he (and the author) thought he was in serious danger. Previously he had just tanked attacks without worry, for example, Vegeta's attack just a few moments before.

He also dodges attacks that are no threat to him. The Kienzan doesn't have to be lethally threatening to Freeza to get him to dodge; it just has to be able to do something.

Krillin's Kienzan wasn't aimed just at Vegeta's tail, he didn't throw it from the side which would get only his tail. He threw from behind and if he hit, it would hit his tail and his torso.

He was explicitly aiming at Vegeta's tail. What happened after his tail was severed was of no concern.

And, wow, are you actually suggesting that Krillin's Kienzan could have made his BP reach as high or higher than Vegeta's BP in his previous attack to Freeza, and that Freeza just tanked?

Perhaps. The generic blast Vegeta shot was never demonstrated to be anything special.

Final Flash is clearly similar to Makankosappo and Ki-ko-oh. Its a technique for a Ki blast that raises power or makes the blast more effective beyond the normal limits of other ki blasts. But its never shown to be an exception to the rules like Kienzan is.

Again, what rules?

Not to mention that, at the time, Cell was using a level of power that was not DRAMATICALLY superior to Vegeta, since Cell admitted himself that Trunks had more power than him when he transformed.

He tanked Vegeta's kick to a vital area while smiling and moved so fast Vegeta couldn't see him. Trunks' transformation is irrelevant here, as we don't know how much it raised his power. It could be a x10 multiplier for all we know.

Meaning that Cell was at a power level between Vegeta and Trunks, which was enough to beat Vegeta without trouble, especially after he had tired himself with the Final Flash, but doesn't make him dramatically superior to Vegeta like Freeza was to Krillin, or Oozaru Vegeta was to Krillin or maybe even Nappa was to Krillin

We don't know how strong Trunks was. The gap between Cell and Vegeta could very well be much larger than the gap between Krillin and Freeza/Nappa.

(Nappa was, what, 3, 4 times stronger than Krillin?

That's an assumption (one that goes against official material, but that's neither here nor there). There's just as much suggesting he's barely twice as strong (he couldn't see 5,000 Goku's movements and was hurt by a kick from 2,800 Gohan).

Unless you assume for whatever reason that Trunks is like 5 or 4 times stronger than Vegeta since he had more power than Cell at the time, which would essentially be saying that Grade 3 gives 5 or 4 times more power than Grade 2, Cell wouldn't have 4 or 3 times Vegeta's power at the time).

Well, is there anything contradicting that?

You are just ignoring and interpreting things to suit your viewpoint. Kienzan is CLEARLY demonstrated to be an exception in terms of effectiveness compared to any other kind of Ki attack. This is clear as day and your insistence on this matter is as illogical as your argument.

You still haven't demonstrated why. Because it can damage opponents way stronger than the user? That's not exceptional at all. The Final Flash was shown to be able to nearly kill Cell. Piccolo's Makanossopotomus could go right through Raditz. What makes the Kienzan so special? The fact that we've never explicitly seen it get tanked? Because we never see those other moves get tanked, either. Or the Big Bang Attack.

What happens and the reactions of the characters clearly dictate what would happen if it hit. No such thing exists for the Big Bang Attack.

Seeing someone dodge it =/= "seeing it work".

The rules that we get from all the times we see a character easily resist or tank all the Ki attacks of an opponent that is dramatically inferior to himself. The fact that you somehow "forgot" how that works for the purpose of this discussion speaks volumes.

There's nothing to forget. It's never laid out anywhere that every attack has some limit except the Kienzan. We never see the limits to the Final Flash, or Big Bang Attack. Heck, we never see someone successfully tank Yajirobe's sword. Is it suddenly a one hit kill to everything now?

Oh, right, the reaction of the characters and what happens and their insistence on dodging every time that technique is used, no matter how big the difference in power is between the users, has nothing to do with that.

Which also happened with the Final Flash. And in that case, we actually see it nearly kill someone rather than miss and give them at worst a small inconsequential cut. We don't see it used when the difference in power between users is THAT different. It's a no limits fallacy. We never saw explicitly saw it get tanked in the few times that it was used, so you're assuming its power is infinite.

Clearly is FAR more logical for an attack that was used a few times without any hint of being an exception in effectiveness compared to the other kinds of attack to be assumed to be as effective as Kienzan which had his exceptional effectiveness demonstrated.

I'd think it's logical to assume that Krillin can't one-shot SS3 Goku, but that's just me. We never see the Final Flash or Big Bang Attack fail either, so where's their wank?

First, I didn't say you hated it, I said you criticized it. Secondly, if you don't agree with it or find it implausible, then, if for some reason you were the author of DBM, you obviously would make it differently. How is that not coherent with what you said...?

"I find it implausible" is a different reason than "it's not what I would do". If it sliced right through SS3-tier Uub like he was butter, then it makes little sense for it to lose nearly all of its power slicing through a weakling like Pan. Unless, as I said, the attack was just blunted a tiny bit, and Uub is super weak without kaio-ken.

At this point you are clearly just arguing to argue.

Look who's talking.

But yes, stopping is best. I seriously could not give less of a shit about this whole conversation (and still don't know what the Kienzan being tanked in filler has to do with anything).

[rereboy]

He also dodges attacks that are no threat to him. The Kienzan doesn't have to be lethally threatening to Freeza to get him to dodge; it just has to be able to do something.

No, he doesn't, besides a trivial punch or two by Gohan while still smiling. Check the manga. From the time Freeza arrives to the time Piccolo arrives, Freeza doesn't dodge anything of consequence besides the Kienzan and then he starts dodging Piccolo because Piccolo was strong enough to hurt him. He dodged Gohan while still smiling just to show that he could but when Krillin launched Kienzan at him he assumed a worried stance and expression and visual signs of distress on top of his head when he had to dodge several of them. That, on its own, due to the discrepancy in power between Krillin, Vegeta and Freeza, already demonstrates the exceptional efficiency of that attack compared to other ki attacks and its exceptional nature to the rules of Dragon Ball that tells us that a dramatically stronger opponent will easily resist or tank any kind of Ki attack that the inferior fighter uses against him, making 99% of all fights in Dragon Ball not a matter of Ki techniques used but a matter of power. And, btw, when Kienzan does "something", it cuts through the opponent, therefore making it potentially fatal depending where it hits.

That's the quality of your "logic". You state things that are flat-out wrong, ignore things because you consider them irrelevant for your already pre-formed view, or twist things to fit your view. And to top if off, you are more preoccupied in stating in your arguments something like "well, but its possible that its works this way, so I don't see why it should work any other way" instead of actually considering and giving more credit to the most logical interpretation. That's why you are arguing "how do you know that this attack can't work this way?" instead of considering how that's clearly the least logical assumption and interpretation.

I'm not even bothering to read the majority of the rest of your post, since your next remark tries to argue that the fact that Krillin's Kienzan was aimed to deliver a fatal attack to Oozaru Vegeta, not just the cutting of his tail, is of no concern, and that just makes me facepalm hard enough to not even bother. And besides, we had both already reached the conclusion that it was a waste of time.

[SilverArmada]

Even discounting the barrier, I still don't see how an attack that can cut right through the SS3-tier Uub would be at all hindered by cutting through Pan. He could have just had the Super Cell Jr use his energy cutter if he really wanted to have this scene.

So, you are criticizing it because a technological cutting attack invented by the DBM's authors has a greater percentage of decay in its effectiveness after cutting a powerful target like Pan than you would give it if you were the author? That is just not being fair.

The criticism about the effectiveness of god's blade/that cutting attack isn't coming out of thin air. RandomGuy specifically says that it's hard to believe that an attack would be hindered cutting through Pan compared to cutting through Uub with no issue. He isn't being "unfair," his criticism is based on what we've seen of the attack so far in DBM. It's a question of whether or not the attack is consistent with itself and how it is portrayed by those same DBM authors in two different scenarios. I personally find it hard to believe that it slices through Pan but somehow Vegeta survives because "cutting through two Super Saiyans" is somehow difficult? It doesn't seem consistent with what we have seen of that attack so far.

Also, people can criticize things without you whiteknighting for DBM like it's your second job.

[rereboy]

Even discounting the barrier, I still don't see how an attack that can cut right through the SS3-tier Uub would be at all hindered by cutting through Pan. He could have just had the Super Cell Jr use his energy cutter if he really wanted to have this scene.

So, you are criticizing it because a technological cutting attack invented by the DBM's authors has a greater percentage of decay in its effectiveness after cutting a powerful target like Pan than you would give it if you were the author? That is just not being fair.

The criticism about the effectiveness of god's blade/that cutting attack isn't coming out of thin air. RandomGuy specifically says that it's hard to believe that an attack would be hindered cutting through Pan compared to cutting through Uub with no issue. He isn't being "unfair," his criticism is based on what we've seen of the attack so far in DBM. It's a question of whether or not the attack is consistent with itself and how it is portrayed by those same DBM authors in two different scenarios. I personally find it hard to believe that it slices through Pan but somehow Vegeta survives because "cutting through two Super Saiyans" is somehow difficult? It doesn't seem consistent with what we have seen of that attack so far.

Also, people can criticize things without you whiteknighting for DBM like it's your second job.

I disagree about it being fair and I never said that it appears out of thin air. I can see his logic in that particular point, but since its an alien technological attack, not a Ki based one, which was made up entirely by the authors, I don't see how exactly its fair to criticize just how much effectiveness the authors think it would it lose after cutting down a SSJ1, even if it can cut down a SSJ3 if its not dulled first.

Basically, its criticizing a rule that the authors chose of how something that its entirely made up by the authors works, that uses a completely different system of power to operate besides Ki also made up by the authors, and that doesn't exist in the manga.

Now, I totally get that a person might choose something else if they were the authors, but since they are not, and since its something totally made up by the authors that doesn't exist at all in the manga and there's no point of reference for something like this in the manga, I can't see exactly how its a fair criticism at all, particularly since since its not a far-fetched idea to introduce these kind of limits to apparently irresistible attacks, like DB filler did regarding the Kienzan even though there's no such limit in the manga.

And this is all assuming that Uub was at a SSJ3 level when he took the attack, which he probably was not. I didn't mention this before because not really being a fair criticism should suffice, but even regarding the logic of said criticism, why should we assume that Uub was at SSJ3 level at that time? Uub clearly underestimated the attack and wasn't using Kaioken, which he can probably use up to x20 at least since even Goku could do that much in Namek, so why should he be at max power at that time? From his conversation with Goku regarding Fat Buu, we know that Uub can win against Fat Buu with his Kaioken, even though its not a completely sure thing. Therefore, his maximum being around SSJ3/Fat Buu level. But, without Kaioken, he should be at least 20 times weaker than his maximum, and as we know, SSJ3 is only 4 times stronger than SSJ2, which would mean that Uub without Kaioken is significantly weaker than even a SSJ2 in our most probable estimate at the time he took the attack. So, even regarding logic, the criticism falls apart.

(Relevant DBM page for reference: http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en ... l/0566.png)

Finally, about me "whiteknighting", its not my fault that most of the replies in this topic are just criticisms and negative comments and I will comment on them whenever I think that they are exaggerated, illogical or unfair. Sorry if that bothers you or if it makes me "uncool" for going against the "tide" due to having my own opinion about things but, since I always provide substantial and logical arguments for my comments (even if you might not agree with them), I don't really care what you think about that.