The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[ZombieVito]

I just don't see it that way. Cell said Goku overstated Gohan's power and Piccolo could be referring to only them (Z fighters) not Cell.

Gohan's feats are more about speed and endurance.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”

The only hit Gohan actually landed was not effective.

Also Goku and Gohan both said that his anger was the only way to beat Cell.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P5.2
Goku: “That’s it…That’s fine, Cell! Get Gohan angry…! If you do, you’ll experience true fear for the first time…”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P10.4, P10.6
Goku: “…Wait for Gohan to get angry…! He’ll…probably…unleash his true power through anger, and suddenly display ferocious strength [ ] …To defeat Cell…The only thing we can do is place our hopes in this power of Gohan’s…”

SSJ Gohan can't beat suppressed Cell.

[Saiga]

Goku only put his eggs into the anger basket when Gohan pussied out. Maybe you could argue that Toriyama retconned Gohan's strength mid-fight, but that'd be incredibly sloppy. It's very clear that Gohan was stronger than Cell's suppressed level.

[Cursed Lemon]

Goku only put his eggs into the anger basket when Gohan pussied out. Maybe you could argue that Toriyama retconned Gohan's strength mid-fight, but that'd be incredibly sloppy. It's very clear that Gohan was stronger than Cell's suppressed level.

But Goku saw Gohan almost go SSJ2 in the ROSAT. He knew that power was there.

[KentalSSJ6]

How bout Mirai Gohanks VS Cell? What form of Cell eventually beats him?

[RandomGuy96]

I just don't see it that way. Cell said Goku overstated Gohan's power and Piccolo could be referring to only them (Z fighters) not Cell.

Cell had tons of power in reserve. That's just reaching with Piccolo; he outright said Gohan's power was number one. There was nothing about Cell being an exception.

Gohan's feats are more about speed and endurance.

Which indicate a very high battle power. Cell couldn't touch him without using his real speed, and couldn't damage him significantly. If guy A tanks guy B's punch and then "teleports" behind him, that would be an indication that guy A is far more powerful than guy B. Cell was only faster than Gohan after he used his true speed, and even then, he wasn't stronger.

The only hit Gohan actually landed was not effective.

He only threw one hit in the entire battle. The hit connected and left Cell bleeding on the floor. I'm not sure what you would call "effective" if Gohan's kick knocking Cell down and making him bleed isn't.

Also Goku and Gohan both said that his anger was the only way to beat Cell.

Gohan is still more or less in denial about how strong he truly is. Goku only resorted to that after, one, Gohan pussied out because he's an unlikeable OOC wuss, and two, Cell powered up. His comments before, about how Gohan can beat Cell because Goku tested his power in their fight, and how SS Gohan was so strong it felt like Goku was holding back, make it abundantly clear he wasn't relying on rage at that point. As Saiga said, the only other explanation is that Toriyama retconned his power in the middle of the fight.

SSJ Gohan can't beat suppressed Cell.

Feats say otherwise.

But Goku saw Gohan almost go SSJ2 in the ROSAT. He knew that power was there.

Filler.

How bout Mirai Gohanks VS Cell? What form of Cell eventually beats him?

Perfect Cell. His lower forms get one-shotted. Fusion is extremely strong. Now, as for which version of Perfect Cell... I'd say the power he used against Goku is the weakest version that I can see winning.

[ZombieVito]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.

[Hugo Boss]

Yakon vs Freeza

Location: Babidi's ship (with or without Babidi's support)

[KentalSSJ6]

Saiyan Saga Tiencha VS The Ginyu Force one at a time and another round with all at once.

[White Oni]

Yakon vs Freeza

Location: Babidi's ship (with or without Babidi's support)

Frieza wins easily with the lights on.

The exact opposite happens if the lights go out.

[RandomGuy96]

Saiyan Saga Tiencha VS The Ginyu Force one at a time and another round with all at once.

Tiencha gets stomped by Recoome, Jeice, or Burter.

[Kaboom]

Yakon vs Freeza
Location: Babidi's ship (with or without Babidi's support)

I agree with White Oni on this one. The two are probably evenly-matched in power. So if Freeza loses his ability to see Yakon (and isn't clever enough to make up for it like Goku, who presumably couldn't sense Yakon's ki either), then Yakon will probably win.

Saiyan Saga Tiencha VS The Ginyu Force one at a time and another round with all at once.

I'm'a say that, at best, Yamhan fares as well as Goku did. He can wreck the Ginyu goons, but Ginyu himself is too much for him to take down.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Saiyan Saga Tiencha Yamhan VS The Ginyu Force one at a time and another round with all at once.

Fusion multiplier seems to be over x50, so Yamhan should be able to beat all of them like Goku did, since they thought that Goku was at 60.000 while beating them.

[mysticboy]

Saiyan Saga Tiencha VS The Ginyu Force one at a time and another round with all at once.

He gets one shotted by Guldo before he even get to use his Neo-Tribeam

[RandomGuy96]

Saiyan Saga Tiencha VS The Ginyu Force one at a time and another round with all at once.

He gets one shotted by Guldo before he even get to use his Neo-Tribeam

Guldo was getting beaten up by 13,000 Krillin and 14,000 Gohan. He's, max, around 10,000. Yamcha and Ten are 1,480 and 1,830 respectively. Since Ten will have to suppress himself to Yamcha's level, it'd basically be 1,480 x fusion multiplier. If Guldo can quickly one-shot Tiencha, the fusion multiplier is like x4, which is far too small, as SS Gotenks was strong enough to defeat Fat Buu, while Goten and Trunks alone were much weaker than Vegeta (not less than 50% of him in the same form or anything, but weaker nonethless).

Fusion multiplier seems to be over x50,

I still don't know how you interpret the quote that way (plus, the Genki Dama and the explanation for Buu's strength imply that it's not THAT huge...).

Yakon vs Freeza

Location: Babidi's ship (with or without Babidi's support)

They're even while Freeza in his 'base' form, but buff Freeza can smack around Yakon like he's nothing. Base Freeza would also win, because Yakon is a huge, unmaneuverable target, and can't even fly or use ki blasts (unless you count video games, 'cause Buu's Fury gives him flight and mouth blasts). If we're counting the video games (after all, there's nothing say he CAN'T do that), then I could possibly see Yakon winning if he gets to stick to the dark. He should have superior senses to Freeza even considering the battle power disadvantage, so he could just dodge around and hit Freeza off-guard, Invisible Man style. He could probably slice right through Freeza (at least base Freeza) with his claws if he catches him off guard.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I still don't know how you interpret the quote that way (plus, the Genki Dama and the explanation for Buu's strength imply that it's not THAT huge...).

How do they imply that again?

[RandomGuy96]

I still don't know how you interpret the quote that way (plus, the Genki Dama and the explanation for Buu's strength imply that it's not THAT huge...).

How do they imply that again?

Well, we had a whole huge PM conversation about it ... but in a nutshell:

Buu's strength: Buff Buu > Super Buu, Buff Buu = South Kaioshin + Pure Buu, Mr. Buu = South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin. Buu states that his absorption works like addition. No exception was ever specified except for one specific person (Dai Kaioshin), and it doesn't seem like Toriyama's style to leave something major like "South Kaioshin doesn't work like any other absorption" unstated.

Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P6.1
Context: Boo thinking to himself, before he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo
Boo: “…If I just add that squirt’s power..."

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

[also, an anime guidebook, according to Herms, just says that Buu "absorbed the power and physique of the South Kaioshin, evolving a powerful body")

Genki-Dama: Genki Dama [Gohan's genki + a token few others] =< Pure Buu, human population = 6 billion, average human battle power = 5, Genki Dama [Gohan/Earthlings/others + SS Goku) > Pure Buu, genki = ~1/3 or 1/4 of total ki, ki = battle power.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Chapter: 288 (DBZ 94), P12.1-3
Context: Goku encouraging Gohan and Kuririn to fight Ginyu
Goku: “Th-that’s Ginyu! Don’t hesitate, take him out…! The way you are now, you definitely can’t lose! Alright…?! Blow him away…!”
Ginyu: “Blow me away?...Fuhahaha…! You idiot! You say they can’t lose!? This is your former body! It’s battle power is over 180,000! There’s no way they can win!”
Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!”
[maybe I'm over thinking things, but this does make it sound like Ginyu missing the two mental elements of ki is what made him so weak in Goku's body]

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Guh…Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken!”
Goku: “You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it.
[this, plus the KK multipliers in general, would point to ki and battle power being the same thing, as would Vegeta using them as synonyms frequently]

Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, we had a whole huge PM conversation about it ... but in a nutshell:

It's because the conversation was so huge that I'm so lazy to check the whole thing again.

While ki & battle power are the same thing, Goku (and everyone) most likely means genki, a part of ki, when saying ki in these cases, since the Genki Dama only takes genki from what we know. Plus, we have no idea what part of one's BP genki equals to, and it seems things like dormant power-based abilities & amplification techniques don't help in increasing it, since the kids didn't turn SS or used Fusion + SS3, and Gohan didn't power-up to his Ultimate state.

About S. Kaioshin, we barely learned anything about him other than that he is Majin Boo with S. Kaioshin absorbed. He is a god after all, and Dai Kaioshin did have weird effects on him, and Kaioshin's & Kibito's energy couldn't be used for Boo's revival, so it's not like S. Kaioshin having weird effects on Boo is very hard to believe.

As for Mr. Boo, there is nothing saying that his BP is S. Kaioshin's BP + Dai Kaioshin's BP from what I recall.

On the other hand, Gotenks reacted as if that was the greatest power he ever wielded (implying that he is stronger than SS Goten/Trunks), and he was so fast that Piccolo didn't even try to stop him (this at least implies that his multiplier is more than 2 dozens).

Context: Goku encouraging Gohan and Kuririn to fight Ginyu
Goku: “Th-that’s Ginyu! Don’t hesitate, take him out…! The way you are now, you definitely can’t lose! Alright…?! Blow him away…!”
Ginyu: “Blow me away?...Fuhahaha…! You idiot! You say they can’t lose!? This is your former body! It’s battle power is over 180,000! There’s no way they can win!”
Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!”
[maybe I'm over thinking things, but this does make it sound like Ginyu missing the two mental elements of ki is what made him so weak in Goku's body]

That's most likely it. But how does this relate to Gotenks?

[RandomGuy96]

That's most likely it. But how does this relate to Gotenks?

It would indicate that genki itself, the non-mental aspect of ki, would only equal 1/4 of Goku's total battle power (I guess that's why people can get stronger via meditation?). Goku's full battle power (barring Kaio-ken) was 90,000. The battle power of Goku's body dropped to 23,000 when Ginyu took control of it, because according to Goku, he lacked the mental strengths he needed to obtain the full 90,000. We've also seen other instances of fighters lacking mental strength and seemingly losing power as a result (e.g. Dodoria dying in one hit from someone barely stronger than him).

About S. Kaioshin Boo, we barely learned anything about him other than that he is Majin Boo with S. Kaioshin absorbed. He is a god after all, and Dai Kaioshin did have weird effects on him, and Kaioshin's & Kibito's energy couldn't be used for Boo's revival, so it's not like S. Kaioshin having weird effects on Boo is very hard to believe.

That's the thing though. In those other cases, something was specifically stated about Kaioshin effects on Buu (Kaioshin energy can't unlock his ball for whatever reason, a Potara fusion dissolves inside him because of his body's "bad air", Dai Kaioshin's gentleness and pureness caused him to become more docile and intelligent, yet normally weaker). Looking at the statement that introduces us to South Kaioshin in context, it's implied that absorbing him was just "business as usual" for Buu. We're given no reason to think that what happened when he absorbed South Kaioshin is different than what happens when he absorbs any other person; he takes on a form resembling them, and adds their power to his own. But when he recalls Buu absorbing Dai Kaioshin, he makes a big deal about how differently and drastically Dai Kaioshin affected him... which wouldn't really fit if both of them had unusual effects.

As for Mr. Boo, there is nothing saying that his BP is S. Kaioshin's BP + Dai Kaioshin's BP from what I recall.

Nope. But logically, since Pure Buu is standing right there, and removing Mr. Buu reverts Super Buu to Pure Buu, Mr. Buu himself is just the two Kaioshin merged by Majin skin, with Fat Buu's mind. Unless we're being lied to and Pure Buu isn't... Pure Buu, the only power sources Mr. Buu has are the Kaioshin. This would also tie back to Toriyama's "if it's more complicated than it looks on the surface, I'll let you know" approach to storytelling.

On the other hand, Gotenks reacted as if that was the greatest power he ever wielded (implying that he is stronger than SS Goten/Trunks), and he was so fast that Piccolo didn't even try to stop him (this at least implies that his multiplier is more than 2 dozens).

Unusual multipliers (implied by SS Gotenks vs Super Buu) or gag logic (implied by base Gotenks vs Super Buu).

While ki & battle power are the same thing, Goku (and everyone) most likely means genki, a part of ki, when saying ki in these cases, since the Genki Dama only takes genki from what we know

You mean while talking about the Genki-Dama? Of course.

Plus, we have no idea what part of one's BP genki equals to, and it seems things like dormant power-based abilities & amplification techniques don't help in increasing it, since the kids didn't turn SS or used Fusion + SS3, and Gohan didn't power-up to his Ultimate state.

Gohan appeared to be in his Ultimate state (enclosed eyes and single bang), which would explain why his energy was so significant, strong enough that with a few token others ("Gohan and the others"), his genki was almost enough to kill Pure Buu on its own ("Hey look, Gohan sent us some ki! Also, a few hundred other people, but whatever"). As for Gotenks... yeah, no idea there. Perhaps fusion can't be performed immediately after being resurrected? Or it hadn't been a full hour since Gohan was absorbed?

[xmysticgohanx]

I still don't understand the genki dama thing.

[RandomGuy96]

I still don't understand the genki dama thing.

What don't you understand about it?