The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[xmysticgohanx]

I still don't understand the genki dama thing.

What don't you understand about it?

How does it prove Gotenks isn't that much stronger than Goku? I don't understand how that equation you posted even works; I got a 29 on my ACT so I'm not stupid lol

[RandomGuy96]

I still don't understand the genki dama thing.

What don't you understand about it?

How does it prove Gotenks isn't that much stronger than Goku? I don't understand how that equation you posted even works; I got a 29 on my ACT so I'm not stupid lol

It's not really "proof" nor is it an "equation"... it's more like me just pointing out what I think was implied by the scene. Basically, Toriyama said ki was composed of genki and two other things, courage and correct state of mind. The Genki-Dama is a combined energy attack that, as the name would indicate, uses genki. One of the arguments Goku fanboys like to bring up for Goku to be stronger than Gohan is that Gohan's ki wasn't enough on its own to kill Buu as part of the Genki-Dama, but most fans who actually care about that sort of thing know that was only the case because the Genki-Dama only took part of Gohan's ki, his genki, not all of it.

Since we know ki is composed of three different things, I was just temporarily working off the assumption that all three make up a roughly even proportion of someone's total ki (it's heavily implied at one point that without genki the other two won't do much good, but not vice versa, and more lightly implied at another that genki is more like 1/4). I posted the Ginyu quote because it's one of the many manga examples of a fighter needing more than just a strong body to fully tap into their power (Nappa doing worse after he gets upset when Goku makes a fool of him, Dodoria having a mental breakdown and dying in one hit from someone who he's only slightly weaker than, etc.). Goku's body had a battle power of 90,000, but Ginyu, due to lacking the mental elements required to make full use of that power (according to Goku), was stuck with about a quarter of that (I presume this would be Goku's genki/vitality).

When Goku begins gathering ki for the Genki-Dama, the first ones to donate are Gohan and co. Goku notes, after receiving this energy, that the Genki-Dama is extremely powerful, but "even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Buu". Note that Goku said "probably", so it not being able to wipe out Buu isn't a sure thing. This would imply the level of genki/ki he obtained from just Gohan and the others was around Pure Buu's level. Almost all of that energy would be from Gohan; the next strongest after him is Kibitoshin, and he's weaker than SS2 Goku. After him, the only individuals worth noting would be Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo. There's also the humans (Krillin, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Yamcha), the 110 Namekians, and some guys in the Afterlife, but their powers are so irrelevant by this point that they don't matter for much. Gohan is a lot stronger than SS3 Gotenks and Super Boo, who themselves completely outclass SS3 Goku, so the combined energy of the rest should barely be a drop in the bucket compared to what he gives.

Furthermore, in Neko Majin, it is mentioned that there are 6 billion Earthlings. The average Earthling battle power is 5. Going by the "genki is 1/3 of ki" logic (which isn't fact or anything, just a convenient way to show this), an additional boost of 10 billion battle power units was enough to take the Genki-Dama from "probably not enough to kill Buu" to "definitely enough to kill Buu, with a little help from SS Goku". Any way you look at it, the ki of the Earthlings, who collectively have a battle power of ~30 billion among them, was viewed as relevant to a Genki-Dama containing the energy of Ultimate Gohan. This would be incompatible with the idea that Gotenks is tens or even hundreds of times stronger than Goku.

[Hellspawn28]

Cyber Freeza (or Mecha Freeza, whatever you want to call him) vs. #14. Both died quickly from SSj Future Trunks sword, so who wins?

[RandomGuy96]

Cyber Freeza (or Mecha Freeza, whatever you want to call him) vs. #14. Both died quickly from SSj Future Trunks sword, so who wins?

14 actually put up a fight. He beats the crap out of Freeza. If cyborg Freeza manages to power up to 100%, then maybe he can put up a bit of a fight, but he still loses.

[Mjb1985]

Considering that Trunks was literally goading Freeza into using his full power, I don't think Freeza's full power would make a lick of difference against Trunks. I think Trunks is just that strong. Freeza who on Namek was able to be quite competitive with Super Saiyan Goku, all of a sudden is improved and still way out of his league. It appears that the Future Saga Super Saiyans, Gohan ( One Arm ), Trunks and Yardrat Goku are all on a completely different level of power than Organic Freeza, Goku on Namek and Cyborg Freeza. It's pretty amazing for Goku to jump up in power so much, but i has been almost two years and this is Goku we are talking about.

Considering that 14 put up a decent fight against Trunks from the Androids Saga, who should be able to blow away his previous version from 3 years ago, I'd say that Freeza is helpless against 14. I think a better match up would be 10 Mecha Freeza's at full power vs 14, rather than a one on one.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It would indicate that genki itself, the non-mental aspect of ki, would only equal 1/4 of Goku's total battle power (I guess that's why people can get stronger via meditation?). Goku's full battle power (barring Kaio-ken) was 90,000. The battle power of Goku's body dropped to 23,000 when Ginyu took control of it, because according to Goku, he lacked the mental strengths he needed to obtain the full 90,000. We've also seen other instances of fighters lacking mental strength and seemingly losing power as a result (e.g. Dodoria dying in one hit from someone barely stronger than him).

Well, genki, shouki, and yuuki are only 3 from other components of ki, ki is not composed from only these 3 things. Plus, we don't know exactly how all these work, so I wouldn't look at it more deeply.

That's the thing though. In those other cases, something was specifically stated about Kaioshin effects on Buu (Kaioshin energy can't unlock his ball for whatever reason, a Potara fusion dissolves inside him because of his body's "bad air", Dai Kaioshin's gentleness and pureness caused him to become more docile and intelligent, yet normally weaker). Looking at the statement that introduces us to South Kaioshin in context, it's implied that absorbing him was just "business as usual" for Buu. We're given no reason to think that what happened when he absorbed South Kaioshin is different than what happens when he absorbs any other person; he takes on a form resembling them, and adds their power to his own. But when he recalls Buu absorbing Dai Kaioshin, he makes a big deal about how differently and drastically Dai Kaioshin affected him... which wouldn't really fit if both of them had unusual effects.

The thing is, we barely learned anything about S. Kaioshin Boo (we really know nothing more than that Boo absorbed S. Kaioshin). We don't know how his personality & powers changed from the absorption at all, and that's because S. Kaioshin was never really relevant to the story. So, since we don't have many information on him in the first place, it's not too far-fetched to make safe assumptions based on other implications on the story.

Nope. But logically, since Pure Buu is standing right there, and removing Mr. Buu reverts Super Buu to Pure Buu, Mr. Buu himself is just the two Kaioshin merged by Majin skin, with Fat Buu's mind. Unless we're being lied to and Pure Buu isn't... Pure Buu, the only power sources Mr. Buu has are the Kaioshin. This would also tie back to Toriyama's "if it's more complicated than it looks on the surface, I'll let you know" approach to storytelling.

Who says that Dai Kaioshin doesn't suppress Boo's overall power? If he has Majin skin, his Kaioshin ki could have also been converted into Majin ki, couldn't it? He is still Majin Boo after all, he isn't S. Kaioshin & Dai Kaioshin merged through a Majin body.

Unusual multipliers (implied by SS Gotenks vs Super Buu) or gag logic (implied by base Gotenks vs Super Buu).

What does the fight with Boo have to do with this?

As for Gotenks... yeah, no idea there. Perhaps fusion can't be performed immediately after being resurrected? Or it hadn't been a full hour since Gohan was absorbed?

Since their bodies were reconstructed by the DBs from scratch, I would assume that their ki was completely restored. If Goten & Trunks didn't use Fusion because they couldn't, I think that Toriyama would have shown it in the story as an issue. For example, we would have Goten & Trunks saying something like "Damn, too bad we can't transform or use Fusion, we would help more like that!".

[RandomGuy96]

Well, genki, shouki, and yuuki are only 3 from other components of ki, ki is not composed from only these 3 things. Plus, we don't know exactly how all these work, so I wouldn't look at it more deeply.

The wording of the statement I just posted implies it really is just those three. And while we don't know exactly how they work, the general concept of "small fraction of Earthlings' ki is relevant next to small fraction of Gohan's" is still there, which really doesn't support Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan being SO much stronger than everyone else.

The thing is, we barely learned anything about S. Kaioshin Boo (we really know nothing more than that Boo absorbed S. Kaioshin). We don't know how his personality & powers changed from the absorption at all, and that's because S. Kaioshin was never really relevant to the story. So, since we don't have many information on him in the first place, it's not too far-fetched to make safe assumptions based on other implications on the story.

I'd say he's pretty relevant; he's the reason Super Buu has the power, appearance, and personality that he does. But our lack of information on him is my point; Toriyama was very bare bones with how he described Buu's power increases. He just said:

A. He absorbed a really strong guy, and got stronger.

B. He absorbed another strong guy, but got weaker this time, to the point that he was stronger before he started absorbing anyone.

He had Buu state earlier that his absorption was addition, and never implied that South Kaioshin was any different. Plus, just look at the way Kibitoshin's exposition is phrased; he absorbed this guy, then he absorbed this other guy, which caused unusual effects. He only ever mentions Dai Kaioshin doing anything out of the ordinary, which wouldn't fit if BOTH Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin had abnormal effects on Buu, from either an in-universe or out of universe perspective. We, as an audience, are just left to assume that the absorption of South Kaioshin was no different from the absorption of Gohan or Gotenks.

Who says that Dai Kaioshin doesn't suppress Boo's overall power? If he has Majin skin, his Kaioshin ki could have also been converted into Majin ki, couldn't it? He is still Majin Boo after all, he isn't S. Kaioshin & Dai Kaioshin merged through a Majin body.

It's only stated that Dai Kaioshin suppressed Buu because of the latter's savagery. Not because of his ki type. If that was the case, it would have been stated somewhere. There'd be no reason for him to suppress the power of a good being. Yes, that's actually exactly what Mr. Buu is (that's all he can be, as Pure Buu is right there), except with Fat Buu's mind and memories.

He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened.

Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

In both cases, it's emphasized that the Dai Kaioshin's gentle heart doesn't mix with Buu's evil, and that's why his ki gets suppressed (we know that it doesn't disappear, though). It's not because Dai Kaioshin's god ki is incompatible with Buu's Majin ki (as South Kaioshin made Buu stronger).

What does the fight with Boo have to do with this?

Read my recent posts on the power level thread. In a nutshell:

-Buu was annoyed by base Gotenks, but was having fun with SS Gotenks. This wouldn't be the case if both of them were so weak to him that he could kill Gotenks with one finger.
-Buu stated that base Gotenks was too weak to amuse him, and that he would now kill the kid. When he transforms, however, Buu suddenly decides not to immediately kill him.
-Buu could tank base Gotenks. He could not tank Super Saiyan Gotenks, as demonstrated by the headbutt scene. Super Saiyan Gotenks was also fast enough to track Buu's movements (and dodge once) and shrug off some hits that had to have some effort put into them (like when Buu got pissed and punched him in the face, or when both fighters launched themselves at the other).

Since their bodies were reconstructed by the DBs from scratch, I would assume that their ki was completely restored. If Goten & Trunks didn't use Fusion because they couldn't, I think that Toriyama would have shown it in the story as an issue. For example, we would have Goten & Trunks saying something like "Damn, too bad we can't transform or use Fusion, we would help more like that!".

But it's possible that it was not. I actually think the most likely explanation for this is that Toriyama just forgot to make them fuse and didn't want to go back and draw it, but 1 full hour not passing between Gohan getting absorbed and the Genki-Dama being formed is a good way to explain it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The wording of the statement I just posted implies it really is just those three. And while we don't know exactly how they work, the general concept of "small fraction of Earthlings' ki is relevant next to small fraction of Gohan's" is still there, which really doesn't support Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan being SO much stronger than everyone else.

It's not just those three though:

Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki].

Those three are examples of the components of ki.

I'd say he's pretty relevant; he's the reason Super Buu has the power, appearance, and personality that he does. But our lack of information on him is my point; Toriyama was very bare bones with how he described Buu's power increases. He just said:

A. He absorbed a really strong guy, and got stronger.

B. He absorbed another strong guy, but got weaker this time, to the point that he was stronger before he started absorbing anyone.

He had Buu state earlier that his absorption was addition, and never implied that South Kaioshin was any different. Plus, just look at the way Kibitoshin's exposition is phrased; he absorbed this guy, then he absorbed this other guy, which caused unusual effects. He only ever mentions Dai Kaioshin doing anything out of the ordinary, which wouldn't fit if BOTH Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin had abnormal effects on Buu, from either an in-universe or out of universe perspective. We, as an audience, are just left to assume that the absorption of South Kaioshin was no different from the absorption of Gohan or Gotenks.

Who says that Dai Kaioshin doesn't suppress Boo's overall power? If he has Majin skin, his Kaioshin ki could have also been converted into Majin ki, couldn't it? He is still Majin Boo after all, he isn't S. Kaioshin & Dai Kaioshin merged through a Majin body.

It's only stated that Dai Kaioshin suppressed Buu because of the latter's savagery. Not because of his ki type. If that was the case, it would have been stated somewhere. There'd be no reason for him to suppress the power of a good being. Yes, that's actually exactly what Mr. Buu is (that's all he can be, as Pure Buu is right there), except with Fat Buu's mind and memories.

He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened.

Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

In both cases, it's emphasized that the Dai Kaioshin's gentle heart doesn't mix with Buu's evil, and that's why his ki gets suppressed (we know that it doesn't disappear, though). It's not because Dai Kaioshin's god ki is incompatible with Buu's Majin ki (as South Kaioshin made Buu stronger).

... Maybe you are right. I'll have to go through lots of thinking on this though, because I'll have to change many things in my mind now. You'll see my opinion on this when I get to the Boo arc in my BP list.

-Buu was annoyed by base Gotenks, but was having fun with SS Gotenks. This wouldn't be the case if both of them were so weak to him that he could kill Gotenks with one finger.
-Buu stated that base Gotenks was too weak to amuse him, and that he would now kill the kid. When he transforms, however, Buu suddenly decides not to immediately kill him.
-Buu could tank base Gotenks. He could not tank Super Saiyan Gotenks, as demonstrated by the headbutt scene. Super Saiyan Gotenks was also fast enough to track Buu's movements (and dodge once) and shrug off some hits that had to have some effort put into them (like when Buu got pissed and punched him in the face, or when both fighters launched themselves at the other).

That would mean that Boo can have some fun with someone that is x8 weaker than him than someone that is x400 weaker than him, and that he wasn't fighting seriously against SS Gotenks. As for the head-butt, Boo didn't expect Gotenks to jump back at him, and didn't have enough time to react apparently, especially when he wasn't serious against his weak opponent. Look at how easily Boo crushed SS Gotenks when he got bored of him, he defeated him from a distance with just his antenna.

I actually think the most likely explanation for this is that Toriyama just forgot to make them fuse and didn't want to go back and draw it, but 1 full hour not passing between Gohan getting absorbed and the Genki-Dama being formed is a good way to explain it.

I don't really buy what you said about Toriyama, but maybe the 1 hour was the case.

[RandomGuy96]

That would mean that Boo can have some fun with someone that is x8 weaker than him than someone that is x400 weaker than him, and that he wasn't fighting seriously against SS Gotenks. As for the head-butt, Boo didn't expect Gotenks to jump back at him, and didn't have enough time to react apparently, especially when he wasn't serious against his weak opponent. Look at how easily Boo crushed SS Gotenks when he got bored of him, he defeated him from a distance with just his antenna.

Would the difference really matter from Buu's perspective? He said base Gotenks was too weak after getting punched by him repeatedly to no effect. If the same thing would happen with SS Gotenks if he used the tiniest bit of effort (it's never implied that Buu is suppressed, by the way), then why does he not just kill him?

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P4.1-2
Context: after Boo smacks Gotenks
Gotenks: “Heh…hehen…! You’re pretty tough, aincha?...W-well, I pla-planned on that…!”
Boo: “Enough already. You’re weak. This isn’t any fun, so I’ll kill you.”

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P12.7
Context: after Gotenks fights Boo a bit, and head-butts him
Piccolo: “He…he just might…possibly be able to de-defeat him…!”

Buu wasn't caught off guard; he saw Gotenks coming. Him not having any time to react makes no sense, as Buu should be so much faster than Gotenks at this point as to be invisible if he uses even half of his true speed. Their brief exchange wasn't as one-sided as such a huge gap in power would imply; Buu tries to grab Gotenks, Gotenks dodges, Buu kicks Gotenks up into the air (which hurts him, but doesn't damage him significantly), flies up and kicks him back down, Gotenks kicks off the ground and launches himself at Buu, he collides and headbutts Buu, and they both get bruises.

Buu did beat up SS Gotenks easily when he stopped screwing around. But I don't think he was screwing around in the sense that he was hiding power; he was just not going for the kill (as seen when he lets Gotenks charge his attacks rather than just grabbing him and repeatedly punching him in the face). Even then, I don't think Buu's beat down of Gotenks near the end really indicates that huge of a gap in power; if anything, that's just a good durability feat for Gotenks.

But maybe the SS Gotenks vs Buu fight doesn't actually matter at all. My point is, it's just one of many things (including the Genki-Dama and the South Kaioshin absorption) that hints that Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan, while strong enough to easily crush Goku, aren't tens of times stronger than him or anything like that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Would the difference really matter from Buu's perspective?

Apparently, yes. Even if SS Gotenks is far weaker than him at full power.

Buu wasn't caught off guard; he saw Gotenks coming. Him not having any time to react makes no sense, as Buu should be so much faster than Gotenks at this point as to be invisible if he uses even half of his true speed. Their brief exchange wasn't as one-sided as such a huge gap in power would imply; Buu tries to grab Gotenks, Gotenks dodges, Buu kicks Gotenks up into the air (which hurts him, but doesn't damage him significantly), flies up and kicks him back down, Gotenks kicks off the ground and launches himself at Buu, he collides and headbutts Buu, and they both get bruises.

That would just mean that Boo wasn't going all-out on Gotenks.

[RandomGuy96]

Apparently, yes. Even if SS Gotenks is far weaker than him at full power.

He may have been weaker, but I don't think the fight implies he's so weak that he can't hurt Buu at all.

That would just mean that Boo wasn't going all-out on Gotenks.

That's never implied anywhere, and really doesn't fit the context of this scene or the one before it. Buu doesn't have fun with base Gotenks because he's too weak, and his punches have no effect. Buu has fun with SS Gotenks, even though he's also too weak, and there's no real difference. Why is he willing to suppress his power for SS Gotenks and not base Gotenks? And why does no one comment on this apparently MASSIVE increase in power when he fights SS3 Gotenks?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's never implied anywhere, and really doesn't fit the context of this scene or the one before it. Buu doesn't have fun with base Gotenks because he's too weak, and his punches have no effect. Buu has fun with SS Gotenks, even though he's also too weak, and there's no real difference. Why is he willing to suppress his power for SS Gotenks and not base Gotenks? And why does no one comment on this apparently MASSIVE increase in power when he fights SS3 Gotenks?

It's not the same making your power 8 times weaker compared to 400 times weaker.

And I'm not suggesting that he was suppressed, I'm suggesting that he wasn't fighting seriously. Which is what the fight implies, since we had Gotenks dodging Boo's hits in the beginning, and when Boo got more serious after Gotenks destroyed him with the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, he nearly beat Gotenks by merely using his antenna from a distance.

[Hellspawn28]

#15 vs. #19.

Round 1: #19 can absorb ki

Round 2: #19 can't absorb ki

Both got easily killed by SSj Vegeta, so wins?

[RandomGuy96]

It's not the same making your power 8 times weaker compared to 400 times weaker.

It should be the same to him. 1/400 or 1/8 of his power, it makes no difference. Either way, the enemy can't hurt him at all, can't see him move, and will die to one hit. It's not like Buu has any trouble suppressing his power lower than that. He was able to suppress his power low enough not to kill base Trunks, and suppress himself enough that his tiny finger beam could be deflected by Tenshinhan.

And I'm not suggesting that he was suppressed, I'm suggesting that he wasn't fighting seriously. Which is what the fight implies, since we had Gotenks dodging Boo's hits in the beginning, and when Boo got more serious after Gotenks destroyed him with the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, he nearly beat Gotenks by merely using his antenna from a distance.

Not fighting seriously =/= being inexplicably weaker, less durable, and slower. He'd have to have actually been hiding his power if SS Gotenks could hurt him.

What does him using his antenna prove? Mr. Buu used his antenna when fighting Pure Buu. Was he toying with Pure Buu?

#15 vs. #19.

Round 1: #19 can absorb ki

Round 2: #19 can't absorb ki

Both got easily killed by SSj Vegeta, so wins?

Incorrect. 15 actually put up a fight against SS Vegeta. He kills 19 with one punch.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It should be the same to him. 1/400 or 1/8 of his power, it makes no difference.

How? There is a huge difference in these numbers, and it gets harder & harder, plus more annoying, to suppress your power more & more.

Not fighting seriously =/= being inexplicably weaker, less durable, and slower. He'd have to have actually been hiding his power if SS Gotenks could hurt him.

I can hit without using my full strength, move without using my full speed, and get hurt from hits that I wouldn't get hurt at all if I was ready to take them, yet I can't control my ki. Heck, I don't even have ki!

What does him using his antenna prove? Mr. Buu used his antenna when fighting Pure Buu. Was he toying with Pure Buu?

Mr. Boo couldn't crush Pure Boo with it. On the other hand, Evil Boo could crush Gotenks with it.

[RandomGuy96]

How? There is a huge difference in these numbers, and it gets harder & harder, plus more annoying, to suppress your power more & more.

We've seen Buu suppress his power much lower than that with no effort. There's no indication that it is at all hard for him or anyone else.

I can hit without using my full strength, move without using my full speed, and get hurt from hits that I wouldn't get hurt at all if I was ready to take them, yet I can't control my ki. Heck, I don't even have ki!

The difference between a strong DB fighter and a weak one is much, much larger than the difference between a strong human and a weak human in real life. Not only would Gotenks look like he was not moving at all to Buu, but his punches would tickle even if launched right at Buu's unprotected face while he's standing perfectly still.

Mr. Boo couldn't crush Pure Boo with it. On the other hand, Evil Boo could crush Gotenks with it.

So? You said that Buu smacking Gotenks into the ground with his tentacle a few times was proof he wasn't trying. How is that in any way tied to his durability or speed? Why is him slamming Gotenks into the ground different than just punching him, which he also did?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We've seen Buu suppress his power much lower than that with no effort. There's no indication that it is at all hard for him or anyone else.

We haven't seen him suppressing his power that much. I don't even remember anyone

The difference between a strong DB fighter and a weak one is much, much larger than the difference between a strong human and a weak human in real life.

How?

Not only would Gotenks look like he was not moving at all to Buu, but his punches would tickle even if launched right at Buu's unprotected face while he's standing perfectly still.

You can't know that when Boo isn't even trying.

So? You said that Buu smacking Gotenks into the ground with his tentacle a few times was proof he wasn't trying. How is that in any way tied to his durability or speed? Why is him slamming Gotenks into the ground different than just punching him, which he also did?

Because if Boo can crush Gotenks like he did with his antenna, then he can also easily crush him with his punches, kicks, etc, if he wants to. The fact that he didn't crush him when he attacked doesn't make SS Gotenks faster, or nearly as fast as him, it means that Boo wasn't giving his all against Gotenks.

[RandomGuy96]

We haven't seen him suppressing his power that much. I don't even remember anyone

Not killing base Trunks with a punch?

Firing a finger beam weak enough that Tenshinhan could deflect it?

Letting bullets pierce his body and moving slow enough that humans can see him?

Putting out a ki weak enough that (in a gag scene) Piccolo thought base Gotenks had a chance?

Suppressing his ki to nothing against Gotenks and Gohan, to the point where everyone but Gohan thought he was dead?

It just seems silly to suggest he'd not be able to suppress himself that much. Not just because he plainly does several times, but because almost every other fighter in the series can do it, even those that have much less knowledge and abilities relating to ki control than he does (he should pretty much be the best character in the series at controlling and manipulating ki, actually, going by his wide variety of techniques, ability to copy other fighters' abilities, being able to express himself extremely low, his ki sensing feat on the Lookout, etc.).

How?

Difference between 260 and 408 = difference between moon busting and planet busting. That is HUGE. Way more of a proportional difference than even the difference between an infant and a professional strongman. Also, if one fighter is x2 stronger than another, then fighter A is basically invisible to fighter B, and won't take any damage from any of fighter B's punches even if he stands perfectly still and doesn't guard himself.

You can't know that when Boo isn't even trying.

I can, because we've seen that happen before. Unless Buu was suppressing himself, it should have happened here too. Gotenks also should have been standing still from Buu's perspective.

Because if Boo can crush Gotenks like he did with his antenna, then he can also easily crush him with his punches, kicks, etc, if he wants to

And? I think that he can, but that the fight really didn't suggest it was a "move faster than you can see, tank your hits, and kill you in one hit" difference. Gotenks could still dodge and hurt Buu.

The fact that he didn't crush him when he attacked doesn't make SS Gotenks faster, or nearly as fast as him, it means that Boo wasn't giving his all against Gotenks.

No, it just means that Gotenks is fast enough not to get completely blitzed, and that he didn't try grabbing Gotenks earlier.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thinking about it, it seems we are both wrong about Boo: Piccolo thinking that SS Gotenks may stand a chance means that Boo was indeed suppressing his power, since he is actually close in power with SS3 Gotenks, and Piccolo isn't incapable of sensing ki.

Not killing base Trunks with a punch?

Firing a finger beam weak enough that Tenshinhan could deflect it?

Letting bullets pierce his body and moving slow enough that humans can see him?

Again, not putting enough strength in his hits & ki blasts, or not moving as fast as he can doesn't mean he is suppressing his own ki.

As for the bullets piercing his body, there is nothing saying that he has to suppress his ki to do so, since he change the shape of his body at will, and even control parts of it from a distance, so he is letting them pierce him because he wants to IMO.

It just seems silly to suggest he'd not be able to suppress himself that much.

I'm not saying he can't suppress his power that much (he, the Z-Senshi, and Cell can completely erase their presence after all), I'm saying that I don't think it is comfortable for him (or any other fighter) to have a fight while holding back that much.

[RandomGuy96]

Thinking about it, it seems we are both wrong about Boo: Piccolo thinking that SS Gotenks may stand a chance means that Boo was indeed suppressing his power, since he is actually close in power with SS3 Gotenks, and Piccolo isn't incapable of sensing ki.

He thought base Gotenks could win, not SS Gotenks. So I wouldn't take that to mean much (unless you believe base Gotenks > SS Gotenks pre). It's never actually suggested anywhere he's suppressing himself, and like I said it doesn't match the context or his personality. It seems more likely that the fight is just suggesting SS3 being a relatively small boost for Gotenks.

Again, not putting enough strength in his hits & ki blasts, or not moving as fast as he can doesn't mean he is suppressing his own ki.

That's on a different level from just not putting full strength in.

As for the bullets piercing his body, there is nothing saying that he has to suppress his ki to do so, since he change the shape of his body at will, and even control parts of it from a distance, so he is letting them pierce him because he wants to IMO.

I agree, but I think that's because he wasn't using ki to defend himself. In other words, his ki was drastically suppressed.

I'm not saying he can't suppress his power that much (he, the Z-Senshi, and Cell can completely erase their presence after all), I'm saying that I don't think it is comfortable for him (or any other fighter) to have a fight while holding back that much.

That's not really suggested anywhere, and 1/8 of your power being easy to suppress and 1/400 not being comfortable seems totally arbitrary, especially considering how Trunks casually walks around with a power level of 5.