How many multiverses can Goku bench press?

[khalildh]

Does nobody realize that weight is dependent on gravitational effects, and that this supposed omniversal entity would likely have a greater energy state than Goku. The whole question is without internal logic, especially when you understand what the word Universe really means.

[Kamiccolo9]

Does nobody realize that ... The whole question is without ... logic,

Apparently not.

[Tectorman]

Actually, the most recent direct quote strength feat we have is SSJ3 Goku punching Fat Buu's Kamehameha back at him.

It's stated to have destroyed a tenth of the earth (though how it's destroying a tenth without automatic structural failure of the other nine tenths is a mystery).

An earth-buster is 2e32 joules, so Fat Buu's Kmha was 2e31 joules.

SSJ3 is x400, so Goku's base is being able to punch 5e28 joules.

The conversion for joules to megatons is 1MT = 4.(something)e15 joules, so let's round it up to 5e15.

Making Goku's punches equal to 1e13MT, or 10 trillion megatons. A megaton is a million tons, so he's actually looking at 10 quintillion tons. Enough to move the earth in its orbit.

Punching a Kamehameha doesn't mean he has the strength to move planets. The Kamehameha has a destructive energy of that amount. Not a kinetic energy. It isn't moving towards Goku with the energy of 2e31 joules. Think of it this way, the little boy; a nuclear bomb containing the power of 63 TJ (Or 6.3e13 joules) comes at you. At a speed of 15,000 mph and weighs 4,400 kg's. The kinetic energy coming at you would be 9.8e10 joules. To swat that back you would need to counteract 9.8e10 joules. That does not mean you swatted 6.3e13 joules away so you must have used about 6.3e13 joules.

There is no way to calculate the mass and velocity of the Kamehameha. So we have no idea how much force Goku had to apply to send the Kamehameha back. Also. We have no clue whether SSJ3 increases Goku's strength and speed proportionally to multiplier we get provided. We know that it amplifies his Ki by 400x. That doesn't mean his strength and speed get a 400x boost as well. We don't know how it scales.

And I believe in the Superman comics it's stated that you would require enough energy to move 1/1000th of the Earth's weight to move the Earth out of orbit. Earth weighs about 67,000 quintillion tons. So you would need the equivalent energy of 66.6 quintillion tons to be able to move Earth. Not 10 quintillion tons.

The earth is 5.97e24 kg. There are 907 kg to a ton, making the earth 6.58e21 tons. That's 6.58 sextillion tons, a thousandth of which is 6.58 quintillion tons. Not 66.

As far as DBZ is concerned, stronger applies across the board unless specifically said otherwise. USSJ2 is called out as not providing the same increase in speed as to everything else, so it doesn't. SSJ3 doesn't have that qualifier, so its 400x increase applies to speed, strength, durability, and everything else.

True, it is supposition to say that's how a ki blast works, but it's just as much supposition to say it isn't. And since going into further detail requires a whole bunch of extrapolation, interpretation, and theory-crafting, Occam's razor says a ten-percent earth-buster blast has the force of a ten-percent earth-buster.

...

@xmysticgohanx:
True, but it's less recent than the SSJ3 deflection feat. Even less recent but even more impressive is Goku's casual elbow jab that outperformed Vegeta's earth-busting blast against Recoome.

[Hitiro]

The earth is 5.97e24 kg. There are 907 kg to a ton, making the earth 6.58e21 tons. That's 6.58 sextillion tons, a thousandth of which is 6.58 quintillion tons. Not 66.

As far as DBZ is concerned, stronger applies across the board unless specifically said otherwise. USSJ2 is called out as not providing the same increase in speed as to everything else, so it doesn't. SSJ3 doesn't have that qualifier, so its 400x increase applies to speed, strength, durability, and everything else.

True, it is supposition to say that's how a ki blast works, but it's just as much supposition to say it isn't. And since going into further detail requires a whole bunch of extrapolation, interpretation, and theory-crafting, Occam's razor says a ten-percent earth-buster blast has the force of a ten-percent earth-buster.

Was using the numbers presented in Superman comics which say 66 quintillion. Guess they got their moth wrong.

As far as DBZ is concerned stronger does apply across the board, yes. But, apart from Kaioken, strength, speed and Ki are never said to increase proportionate to each other. For all we know the SSJ transformation gives Goku a 50x increase in his Ki. But his strength and speed only increase several times higher. The multipliers only account for Ki increase, nothing else.

If you are going to bring maths and science into this debate. Then you have to tackle how Ki works logically. And logically, Ki attacks would be similar to nuclear warheads. Their kinetic energy is not related to their destructive capability. Just like how if you threw a fireball at someone they would only need to counteract the kinetic energy to send it in a different direction. But the destructive power of that fireball may well exceed however much kinetic energy the fireball has. In that essence. Durability(to be able to negate the destructive power from influencing your hand i.e. burning it off) and speed(to send it in a different direction) are important. Not strength. If you want to say anything then Goku's durability is on par with the Kamehameha(otherwise it would have disintegrated his hand) not his strength.

[Tectorman]

As far as we know, Toriyama's earth, moon, etc, are assumed to be the same as in the real world unless otherwise stated. I.e., the earth has the same mass but not the same continents. So I'm applying real world math where it applies.

As for ki attacks, they do not exist in the real world, so I can't apply real world science. Logic, I can.

So, what's the difference between an exploded ki blast and an unexploded one? Let's take a look at Majin Vegeta vs Goku at the Budokai. If Goku has the durability to tank Vegeta's exploded blast and lacks the strength to physically repel his unexploded blast (as you say), then he should have just stood there and took it on the chin. If he (being a Saiyan) lacked both the durability and strength to do anything about the blast, exploded or not, then he should have dodged it. But that's not what we see. We see him applying strength to it. Unsuccessfully, of course, but if Vegeta's unexploded blast was a few tons and his exploded blast was leagues more, it makes no sense for Goku to bother pushing against it when he can just stand there.

So I submit that a ki blast has the same force, regardless of whether it's detonated or not.

Round two: Mecha Frieza vs Super Trunks
Frieza fires a blast at Trunks and seemingly crushes him with it. Then he's surprised when Trunks just lifts it with one hand.
If the unexploded blast was a weight of a two story house and a planet-busting explosive force, then Frieza, mighty warrior and expert at making things explode, should have expected Trunks to be stuck underneath the blast but otherwise healthy until the blast actually went boom. Instead, he is surprised by Trunks lifting it up as opposed to being a corpse. The lack of an explosion signaling Trunks's death wasn't the surprise, Trunks overcoming it at all was the surprise, i.e., Frieza was expecting the same result regardless of boom.

Even if you argue that that was anime filler thus disregardable, for some reason, we see the same thing with Frieza and Kid Buu vs their respective Spirit Bombs. In fact, in the manga, we never see Kid Buu actually send it back towards Goku during the push, he just pushes (again, an application of strength not just durability) against the Bomb until Goku's energy is revived.

And that's how most ki blasts are treated in the series. If characters were able to endure far more than they could physically manipulate, wouldn't that change the tactics they use? Why push back against a blast if, as long as it's unexploded, it's only a ten-thousandth of what you can take? Just stand there and Superman that thing. And we've seen characters (example: Goku before he gets serious vs Frieza) escape from point blank explosions as they're exploding, so it's not like they have to worry about the transition from nonexploded to exploded. Yet, from Super Vegetto vs Buuhan to tournament-Roshi vs Tien (and a filler scene in BoG where Goku blows off some steam blasting a Kamehameha at himself and then shoving against it), we see DBZ characters repel ki blasts with strength, not just durability.

As for the SSJ multipliers, it's specifically called out for Kaioken, true. And then we see Goku get outclassed in every single category by Frieza. Then he goes SSJ and is outclassed in zero categories. It's implied for SSJ. None of the other transformations (except for the bulked-up Ultras), are said to be any different, so they're not.

[Hitiro]

As far as we know, Toriyama's earth, moon, etc, are assumed to be the same as in the real world unless otherwise stated. I.e., the earth has the same mass but not the same continents. So I'm applying real world math where it applies.

As for ki attacks, they do not exist in the real world, so I can't apply real world science. Logic, I can.

So, what's the difference between an exploded ki blast and an unexploded one? Let's take a look at Majin Vegeta vs Goku at the Budokai. If Goku has the durability to tank Vegeta's exploded blast and lacks the strength to physically repel his unexploded blast (as you say), then he should have just stood there and took it on the chin. If he (being a Saiyan) lacked both the durability and strength to do anything about the blast, exploded or not, then he should have dodged it. But that's not what we see. We see him applying strength to it. Unsuccessfully, of course, but if Vegeta's unexploded blast was a few tons and his exploded blast was leagues more, it makes no sense for Goku to bother pushing against it when he can just stand there.

So I submit that a ki blast has the same force, regardless of whether it's detonated or not.

Round two: Mecha Freeza vs Super Trunks
Freeza fires a blast at Trunks and seemingly crushes him with it. Then he's surprised when Trunks just lifts it with one hand.
If the unexploded blast was a weight of a two story house and a planet-busting explosive force, then Freeza, mighty warrior and expert at making things explode, should have expected Trunks to be stuck underneath the blast but otherwise healthy until the blast actually went boom. Instead, he is surprised by Trunks lifting it up as opposed to being a corpse. The lack of an explosion signaling Trunks's death wasn't the surprise, Trunks overcoming it at all was the surprise, i.e., Freeza was expecting the same result regardless of boom.

Even if you argue that that was anime filler thus disregardable, for some reason, we see the same thing with Freeza and Kid Buu vs their respective Spirit Bombs. In fact, in the manga, we never see Kid Buu actually send it back towards Goku during the push, he just pushes (again, an application of strength not just durability) against the Bomb until Goku's energy is revived.

And that's how most ki blasts are treated in the series. If characters were able to endure far more than they could physically manipulate, wouldn't that change the tactics they use? Why push back against a blast if, as long as it's unexploded, it's only a ten-thousandth of what you can take? Just stand there and Superman that thing. And we've seen characters (example: Goku before he gets serious vs Freeza) escape from point blank explosions as they're exploding, so it's not like they have to worry about the transition from nonexploded to exploded. Yet, from Super Vegetto vs Buuhan to tournament-Roshi vs Tenshinhan (and a filler scene in BoG where Goku blows off some steam blasting a Kamehameha at himself and then shoving against it), we see DBZ characters repel ki blasts with strength, not just durability.

As for the SSJ multipliers, it's specifically called out for Kaioken, true. And then we see Goku get outclassed in every single category by Freeza. Then he goes SSJ and is outclassed in zero categories. It's implied for SSJ. None of the other transformations (except for the bulked-up Ultras), are said to be any different, so they're not.

This is going to be a bit all over the place and not very detailed because I'm tired so I will modify it for a more in-depth discussion later. For now.

Goku had the durability to prevent Majin Vegeta's attack. What he lacked was the strength to stop the blast from pushing him to the side and killing the audience. The strength require to stop the blast does not equal the unexploded, or exploded, destructive energy of the Ki blast. If, for instance, Majin Vegeta's attack contained enough power to destroy the planet. Goku does not need strength equalling enough power to destroy the planet to stop the attack.

The problem is, we aren't talking about the same force here. You are basing whether Goku can stop an attack or not on the level of the attacks destructive energy. While the destructive energy is an issue, it is not the most important issue. As long as Goku can oppose the kinetic energy(the energy of how fast the object is moving with regards to mass too) and he has the durability to stop the blast then Goku can do it.

Here is how we should see it:

Let's pretend Goku can only tank a blast which can destroy the planet.

Scenario A) A blast comes at Goku that has more power than enough power to kill him. The blast is moving extremely slow. Goku would have the ability to knock the attack back but that means nothing because as soon as he touches the attack it will disintegrate his hand. So Goku should dodge it.

Scenario B) A blast comes at Goku that is weaker than Goku so it won't kill him. Goku can tank this blast. But the blast is moving at a speed Goku can not push back. Goku tries to block it, or deflect it, and it fails. Goku is fine but if someone was behind him and they have lower durability than the blast's destructive power then they are dead.

Scenario C) A blast comes at Goku, it is weaker than him so it won't kill him. The blast is moving extremely slow. Goku can knock this blast away without any worries.

These three scenarios show how a Ki blast that may be weaker than Goku's durability can still cause problems. Because the speed/momentum of the attack is what is the issue.

Yes, SSJ Trunks stopping Mecha Freeza's attack was a feat of strength. Again. That doesn't mean SSJ Trunks strength > Mecha Freeza's attack, it just means it was above the kinetic energy or momentum of the blast. If you look at the attack it pushed him quite a bit underground before he could stop it completely. So his strength wasn't enough to stop it dead as soon as he touched it. Meaning that the speed of the attack was above his strength until the blast started to lose momentum.

If Mecha Freeza launched an attack that could destroy Earth that was travelling at 5 miles per hour as long as SSJ Trunks has durability surpassing the attack then the only strength SSJ Trunks would need to send the attack back at Freeza would be a punch above the kinetic energy of Freeza's attack. So if SSJ Trunks threw a punch that travelled at 10 miles per hour(providing Freeza's attack had a similar weight to Trunks fist), it would knock Freeza's blast back. That would mean that SSJ Trunks' strength is of a kinetic energy of about 10 miles per hour. Now, Trunks didn't throw a punch. He just stopped it with his hands. So this is actually a more difficult feat. It is much easier for a person to throw a fast punch to deflect something than it is to block something with your whole body. We see it all the way through the manga. Boo was pushed back, Freeza was pushed back several times, Vegetto in the filler was pushed back(even though filler isn't something we should be looking at), Piccolo has been pushed back. But when characters deflect attacks with fast punches or kicks then it is a lot less difficult.

In this universe though, a lot of the feats are speed based. Not strength based. Accelerating a punch, which weighs an insignificant amount, to counteract a kinetic force coming at you is not grounds for incredible strength. Goku deflecting attacks with a quick swipe of his arm making his arm move much faster than the blast is a speed feat. It is different from bench pressing a car. As far as I'm aware Goku has tanked 3 attacks. One of Nappa's attacks and two of Freeza's. The reason he tanked them? Because they didn't threaten anybody other than him or the planet and could guarantee that it wouldn't harm him.

You ask why would he not just take attacks on the chin all the time. The answer is simple. It is safer to deflect them if they pose a threat to people around him. If Goku is stationary and he gets hit by a blast there is a chance that it will push him back. While he may have the durability to block this attack he may not have the energy/force to change its momentum. As Goku is pushed back the blast tosses him aside because now Goku has to use his whole body to counteract the momentum of the Ki blast. If he had just punched the Ki blast then all the energy and momentum can be focused on flinging the punch at a speed much higher than his body can travel. Making it easier to deal with the blast.

It takes a whole lot more energy to move a body from A to B at a fast pace than it is to move a fist, which only makes up less than 1% of your bodies weight. You can put all that energy into your fist and make it travel much much faster than the Ki blast to knock it away. We also don't know how much a Ki blast weighs. So for all we know the kinetic energy for sending it back is not extremely huge. So what we get is:

Destructive energy > Durability(sometimes) > Speed > Kinetic energy(of Ki Blasts) > Raw Physical Strength

[Tectorman]

@Hitiro

You're missing the point of the Trunks v Frieza example.

Frieza, in attacking Trunks was expecting a result of "corpse" from his attack (even though unexploded) and was surprised by Trunks pushing it back. Frieza was seeing Trunks as a proxy for the horrible Super Saiyan that mauled him on Namek. And while he might expect the kinetic force of dropped building (his unexploded attack) to exceed Trunks's or Goku's strength, there's no way he's expecting that to kill his opponent.

Moving to a manga example: SSJ3 Goku v Fat Buu.

Fat Buu has (probably more than but at the absolute minimum) the strength and durability of a SSJ2. That is to say, (under your paradigm) while he might not have the strength to push back against the kinetic force of a freight train, he should still have the durability to take something at planet-buster levels.

So then we see Goku hit Buu with an unexploding Kamehameha. It goes straight through his gut. Exceeds his strength and durability like a hot knife through butter. How does that happen when Buu's durability should be able to take force like this?

It makes more sense to say that energy blasts have the same force whether they explode or not.

Let's fast-forward to Goku v Kid Buu. We have the same set-up: Goku hits Kid Buu with an unexploding Kamehameha and it blows the lower half of his body and an arm off. Kid Buu has the strength and durability of a SSJ3, and the kinetic force of an unexploding Kamehameha is enough to exceed this.

Well, it makes sense if energy blasts have the same force whether they explode or not.

In fairness, the Buus have an unusual morphic physiology. Indeed, the first thing we see Super Buu do is get pelted by a hail of machine gun bullets that go through him. Their kinetic force was enough to exceed his durability, except I think that scene is either him not bothering to be durable or a gag scene by Toriyama and not to be taken seriously.

But no matter. Let's use a different character.

Perfect Cell (specifically, Perfect Cell as of the Cell Games before he comes back as Super Perfect Cell). First, we see Goku hit him with an exploding Kamehameha that blows the top half of his body away. Then, against SSJ2 Gohan, we see him fire a blast to destroy the earth. Gohan repels this with a Kamehameha of his own that doesn't explode and still blows most of Cell's limbs away. You're suggesting that the difference between an exploding and unexploding blast is the difference between a freight train and an exploding planet.

Now, I know Gohan's SSJ was stronger than Goku's, making his SSJ2 over twice as strong, but the difference between a freight train and an exploding planet (which is what it would have to be to make Gohan's unexploding Kamehameha able to do what Goku's blast has to explode in order to do) seems a bit much.

It makes more sense to say that energy blasts have the same force whether the explode or not.

Oh, and there's also Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell (and they made a point of describing how it wasn't exploding).

But we can go back even further. All the way to Yamcha's Sokidan. It doesn't explode no matter what it hits, whether it's the ground or Yamcha's face. It's not depicted as an exploding attack, so it must be accomplishing its task via its kinetic force. He doesn't appear to be using it to push opponents around, rather it appears meant to cause "Smashed-in-the-face" hurt. Surpassing durability via nothing but kinetic force.

So it makes sense to say that energy blasts are supposed to be conveying the same amount of force whether they explode or not.

So then it becomes a question of what sort of energy blast Fat Buu was using against Goku. Because they do operate differently (the Sokidan versus the Kienzan versus the Special Beam Cannon). And sometimes the same technique by the same (wielder?, user?, shooter?, the guy with the attack ), a la Goku's Kamehameha exploding vs Cell and not exploding vs Fat Buu.

Well, considering Fat Buu's attack is a Kamehameha, a technique he first uses after learning it from Goku's use of the technique, this use being of the not-exploding-yet-still-durability-penetrating variety, it's a safe bet to say that Fat Buu's Kamehameha was conveying ten-percent-earth-buster force even when it wasn't exploding.

[KentalSSJ6]

Paikuhan and Majin Vegeta VS Fat Buu.

Paikuhan was shown to one shot SP Cell. Do you think Fat Buu would be done for if Paikuhan was able to help Vegeta?

[Hitiro]

You're missing the point of the Trunks v Freeza example.

Freeza, in attacking Trunks was expecting a result of "corpse" from his attack (even though unexploded) and was surprised by Trunks pushing it back. Freeza was seeing Trunks as a proxy for the horrible Super Saiyan that mauled him on Namek. And while he might expect the kinetic force of dropped building (his unexploded attack) to exceed Trunks's or Goku's strength, there's no way he's expecting that to kill his opponent.

I don't think I'm missing the point. I'm not saying the kinetic force would ever be able to kill Trunks or Goku. So I don't see what you mean here. What I was saying was that just because you can stop a blast with strength doesn't mean your strength exceeds the power your stopping. This is what I mean.

Kinetic Energy: 5 MJ

Destructive Energy of Blast(Unexploded or exploded): 1 TJ

SSJ Trunks strength to stop blast: 5 MJ not 1 TJ

SSJ Trunks durability: equates to 5 TJ

In your original post you were saying because SSJ3 Goku managed to swat away a blast with enough destructive energy to wipe out a tenth of the planet Goku's strength should be above the energy needed to destroy one tenth of the planet. That isn't correct. Goku's strength merely needs to be above the kinetic energy of the blast while his durability needs to be above one tenth of the planet.

Moving to a manga example: SSJ3 Goku v Fat Buu.

Fat Buu has (probably more than but at the absolute minimum) the strength and durability of a SSJ2. That is to say, (under your paradigm) while he might not have the strength to push back against the kinetic force of a freight train, he should still have the durability to take something at planet-buster levels.

So then we see Goku hit Buu with an unexploding Kamehameha. It goes straight through his gut. Exceeds his strength and durability like a hot knife through butter. How does that happen when Buu's durability should be able to take force like this?

Again, no. Absolute minimum must be higher than that of a SSJ2. Because if it were SSJ2 level Vegeta would have never taken as much damage as he did. It's absurd that a Vegeta who was tanking all of Goku's blows in their fight would get seriously hurt by someone the same level of SSJ2 Goku.

I don't know why you are talking about Goku hitting Boo with an unexploded Kamehameha because Goku was stronger than Fat Boo in SSJ3. Boo definitely did not have the durability to withstand Goku's Kamehameha. Goku never thought him in SSJ2. But if we were to apply this stuff to SSJ2 Vegeta putting a whole in Boo the answer is quite simple. As I explained in my last post Ki based attacks that some characters have developed are a couple of times stronger than the individual. So if Boo is 2x SSJ2 Vegeta then all Vegeta would have to do is output a Ki attack he has that outputs 2x his level. Piccolo's Makankosappo against Raditz was 3x Piccolo's level at one point.

If I entertain your idea that Boo was durable enough to withstand the attack but couldn't deal with the kinetic force then what would have happened is Fat Boo would have just been pushed until either the blast explodes, he collides with the ground or the kinetic force of the blast decreases to the point in which Fat Boo can push the blast.

It makes more sense to say that energy blasts have the same force whether they explode or not.

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying here. Kinetic force doesn't equal destructive force. Yes, a Ki blast can have the same destructive force whether it is exploded or not. Kinetic force is based solely on movement. Not the actual destructive Energy of the blast. For instance, the Sun could travel at 5 mph. I would die if it were to hit me. I would die before that but this is just an example. The 5 mph movement is the kinetic force. The actual Suns destructive energy, in this example, is the heat. Which is 5,800 K.

Now I might be able to punch the Sun, if it were solid, away with a speed of 5 mph. I would need to output energy to counteract the kinetic energy. But it could be possible. What I can't counteract is the 5,800 K heat. My durability is not high enough to deal with that. So think of the Ki blast as a mini star. It has its kinetic energy which is how fast it is flying through the air. It then has its destructive energy. Which would be "If I touch this it may disintegrate me if I don't have the durability." I don't know if this is filler but it is a prime example of what I mean. Pure Boo(Kid Boo) tried to hit Goku's Kamehameha with his fists. Pure Boo obviously thought the Kamehameha wasn't moving fast enough for him to not knock it away. But when he collided his fists with the Kamehameha the Kamehameha just disintegrated his arms.

Let's fast-forward to Goku v Kid Buu. We have the same set-up: Goku hits Kid Buu with an unexploding Kamehameha and it blows the lower half of his body and an arm off. Kid Buu has the strength and durability of a SSJ3, and the kinetic force of an unexploding Kamehameha is enough to exceed this.

Again, this has nothing to do with kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is the travel speed of the blast. You are talking about destructive energy here. It doesn't matter how fast or slow a blast is moving if the destructive energy exceeds the persons durability. Which is what I'm on about.

Well, it makes sense if energy blasts have the same force whether they explode or not.

I am not arguing whether a energy blast has the same destructive energy whether it explodes or not. I'm fine with them having the same destructive energy.

In fairness, the Buus have an unusual morphic physiology. Indeed, the first thing we see Super Buu do is get pelted by a hail of machine gun bullets that go through him. Their kinetic force was enough to exceed his durability, except I think that scene is either him not bothering to be durable or a gag scene by Toriyama and not to be taken seriously.

Boo's durability in the manga is the lowest of any character if he isn't attempting to endure it. If Goku were to be hit by a bullet without caring about it then Goku would still tank the bullets. Boo's durability is effected by the substance he is made of. Compared to normal body tissue it is weaker therefore more Ki needs to be expended to increase its durability. As Ki has become the main source of increases in the manga. As with Toriyama who said "There is a limit to how much strength a character can build. To surpass that limit they increase their Ki."

But no matter. Let's use a different character.

Perfect Cell (specifically, Perfect Cell as of the Cell Games before he comes back as Super Perfect Cell). First, we see Goku hit him with an exploding Kamehameha that blows the top half of his body away. Then, against SSJ2 Gohan, we see him fire a blast to destroy the earth. Gohan repels this with a Kamehameha of his own that doesn't explode and still blows most of Cell's limbs away. You're suggesting that the difference between an exploding and unexploding blast is the difference between a freight train and an exploding planet.

Again. You are getting the wrong end of the stick here. You keep going on about exploding and unexploding destructive energy. This was not the point I was making. I fully agree with you that exploding and unexploding attacks can have the same destructive energy. But this is a bad example to provide seeing as Goku was trying to kill Cell whereas Gohan was messing about with him because Gohan thought he deserved to suffer.

Back to what I was saying though, my point was you originally compared Goku's strength to destructive energy of Boo's Kamehameha. His strength has nothing to do with the destructive energy of the Kamehameha. Only it's kinetic energy(It's momentum). This is the point I'm refuting. Destructive energy would be the energy you're talking about. The whole "This Kamehameha can destroy a tenth of the world." is its destructive energy(exploded or unexploded). And to negate that destructive energy you just need high durability. To stop the attack though you need a force colliding with the attack that rivals its kinetic energy(momentum).

But we can go back even further. All the way to Yamcha's Sokidan. It doesn't explode no matter what it hits, whether it's the ground or Yamcha's face. It's not depicted as an exploding attack, so it must be accomplishing its task via its kinetic force. He doesn't appear to be using it to push opponents around, rather it appears meant to cause "Smashed-in-the-face" hurt. Surpassing durability via nothing but kinetic force.

This is something I can talk about. Yamcha's Sokidan is based on kinetic energy. But if Yamcha increases the output of the destructive energy it can disintegrate foes too. As with the Sun example. Imagine if Yamcha's Sokidan was a "mini star" as soon as it collides with an enemy, even without exploding, it would disintegrate them. This is the energy you have been talking about.

So it makes sense to say that energy blasts are supposed to be conveying the same amount of force whether they explode or not.

There are two energies at play here though. The kinetic energy and the destructive energy(which is present whether they blow up or not). Fire has no kinetic energy in the sense we're talking(Yes, heat is basically kinetic energy but I'm talking about a ball of fire being stationary. Not on the move.) but you would not stick your hand in it because of its destructive energy(Obviously this is the heat, which is kinetic energy as such, but here I'm trying to make an example that gets my point across as you seem to not be understanding it.). Lets look at it this way. If Gohan made a energy ball with enough energy to destroy the planet and he held it out to be touched. Would you, as a human, touch it? No. Because you would lose your hand whether it exploded or not. Because the energy the ball outputs is way too much for a human to handle. It doesn't matter about kinetic energy or whether its exploded or not. The energy itself is enough to do damage. Much like a ball of fire. If his energy ball touches the ground the ground will disintegrate under the energy of the ball. The ball needs no kinetic energy.

Well, considering Fat Buu's attack is a Kamehameha, a technique he first uses after learning it from Goku's use of the technique, this use being of the not-exploding-yet-still-durability-penetrating variety, it's a safe bet to say that Fat Buu's Kamehameha was conveying ten-percent-earth-buster force even when it wasn't exploding.

The Kamehameha isn't really a penrtrating attack it's damage comes from the energy of it. Not its kinetic energy. A mini star travelling at 1 mph would burn straight through you. A paper ball coming at you at 1 mph is not going to do anything. It is the energy the Kamehameha contains(whether or not it explodes) which does the damage. The kinetic energy(momentum) is just there to be fast enough for you to not dodge or fire your own attack.

Kuririn in the Saiyan saga launched that slow moving Kamehameha that split up into several. It was not fast but anything the beam touched was fried it didn't explode. But the power of the attack was enough to vaporise the Saibamen. Sure there are attacks which have certain properties. But a majority of attacks, like the Kamehameha just rely on the energy contained within the attack itself.

[Strife1]

I hope an entire galaxy, let a lone a universe, doesn't fall on top of chi chi and crush them! That would create a mega ultra hyper super saiyan god 10! He's so strong that he can create his own universe and even enter the real world. O.o

[Tectorman]

I don't think I'm missing the point. I'm not saying the kinetic force would ever be able to kill Trunks or Goku. So I don't see what you mean here. What I was saying was that just because you can stop a blast with strength doesn't mean your strength exceeds the power your stopping. This is what I mean.

Kinetic Energy: 5 MJ

Destructive Energy of Blast(Unexploded or exploded): 1 TJ

SSJ Trunks strength to stop blast: 5 MJ not 1 TJ

SSJ Trunks durability: equates to 5 TJ

What I'm saying is that Trunks was able to stop the blast and did not die. Frieza was expecting a result of "corpse" even though it was unexploded. So either (your paradigm) he's expecting Trunks to die from the 5 MJ of the unexploded blast (whether it's capable of 5 TJ post-exploding or not is irrelevant, Frieza was expecting the unexploded blast to do the job so it's the energy of the unexploded blast we're looking at), or (my paradigm) he's expecting the unexploded blast to be producing 5 TJ.

Again, no. Absolute minimum must be higher than that of a SSJ2. Because if it were SSJ2 level Vegeta would have never taken as much damage as he did. It's absurd that a Vegeta who was tanking all of Goku's blows in their fight would get seriously hurt by someone the same level of SSJ2 Goku.

Yep, that's probably true.

I don't know why you are talking about Goku hitting Boo with an unexploded Kamehameha because Goku was stronger than Fat Boo in SSJ3. Boo definitely did not have the durability to withstand Goku's Kamehameha. Goku never thought him in SSJ2. But if we were to apply this stuff to SSJ2 Vegeta putting a whole in Boo the answer is quite simple. As I explained in my last post Ki based attacks that some characters have developed are a couple of times stronger than the individual. So if Boo is 2x SSJ2 Vegeta then all Vegeta would have to do is output a Ki attack he has that outputs 2x his level. Piccolo's Makankosappo against Raditz was 3x Piccolo's level at one point.

If I entertain your idea that Boo was durable enough to withstand the attack but couldn't deal with the kinetic force then what would have happened is Fat Boo would have just been pushed until either the blast explodes, he collides with the ground or the kinetic force of the blast decreases to the point in which Fat Boo can push the blast.

What do you mean "my idea"?

I'm saying Buu had neither the strength nor the durability to take that attack. These characters are not glass cannons. With the possible exception of something like the Super Dragon Fist or the Spirit Bomb (well, a Spirit Bomb used by Cell, anyway), I wouldn't argue that a character can hit harder than he can endure (I might question how wide the gulf is between the two, though). Indeed, Vegeta's Gallic Gun matched the Kaio 3 Kamehameha but was blasted into high atmosphere (but still survived without too much injury) by the Kaio 4 blast, so DBZ characters typically can endure more than they can output.

My idea is that while we never see Buu apply strength against that blast, we do see his durability against the blast and it's insufficient.

Boo's durability in the manga is the lowest of any character if he isn't attempting to endure it. If Goku were to be hit by a bullet without caring about it then Goku would still tank the bullets. Boo's durability is effected by the substance he is made of. Compared to normal body tissue it is weaker therefore more Ki needs to be expended to increase its durability. As Ki has become the main source of increases in the manga. As with Toriyama who said "There is a limit to how much strength a character can build. To surpass that limit they increase their Ki."

Agreed, but I think at this point in the series, even with Buu-flesh starting out less durable than Saiyan-flesh, it is such a trivial matter for the Buus to make themselves more durable via ki that, except for gag-panels, they are that durable.

I mean, we see such ease of body-changing and regeneration from the Buus that I have to wonder why they try to maintain any durability at all. We know they change shape for a momentary advantage (such as Buu stretching his waist away from SSJ3 Gotenks's punch), but when he and Gotenks are butting heads together in the HTC, wouldn't Buu have been better served by hust melting around Gotenks's head, taking no physical harm, and being in a much better position than sporting the same sort of bruise we see on Gotenks's head?

Again. You are getting the wrong end of the stick here. You keep going on about exploding and unexploding destructive energy. This was not the point I was making. I fully agree with you that exploding and unexploding attacks can have the same destructive energy. But this is a bad example to provide seeing as Goku was trying to kill Cell whereas Gohan was messing about with him because Gohan thought he deserved to suffer.

What do the motives matter? We're seeing similar results (Cell getting significant parts of his body blown off) from both versions. If unexploding and exploding energy blasts have the same destructive energy (must be true for both to give the same result), but one is conveying this by exploding (creating concussive force), and the other by not exploding (using kinetic energy), then what am I to conclude from that other than "exploding-concussive-force" = "unexploding-kinetic-force"?

This is something I can talk about. Yamcha's Sokidan is based on kinetic energy. But if Yamcha increases the output of the destructive energy it can disintegrate foes too. As with the Sun example. Imagine if Yamcha's Sokidan was a "mini star" as soon as it collides with an enemy, even without exploding, it would disintegrate them. This is the energy you have been talking about.

So it makes sense to say that energy blasts are supposed to be conveying the same amount of force whether they explode or not.

There are two energies at play here though. The kinetic energy and the destructive energy(which is present whether they blow up or not). Fire has no kinetic energy in the sense we're talking(Yes, heat is basically kinetic energy but I'm talking about a ball of fire being stationary. Not on the move.) but you would not stick your hand in it because of its destructive energy(Obviously this is the heat, which is kinetic energy as such, but here I'm trying to make an example that gets my point across as you seem to not be understanding it.). Lets look at it this way. If Gohan made a energy ball with enough energy to destroy the planet and he held it out to be touched. Would you, as a human, touch it? No. Because you would lose your hand whether it exploded or not. Because the energy the ball outputs is way too much for a human to handle. It doesn't matter about kinetic energy or whether its exploded or not. The energy itself is enough to do damage. Much like a ball of fire. If his energy ball touches the ground the ground will disintegrate under the energy of the ball. The ball needs no kinetic energy.

Well, considering Fat Buu's attack is a Kamehameha, a technique he first uses after learning it from Goku's use of the technique, this use being of the not-exploding-yet-still-durability-penetrating variety, it's a safe bet to say that Fat Buu's Kamehameha was conveying ten-percent-earth-buster force even when it wasn't exploding.

The Kamehameha isn't really a penrtrating attack it's damage comes from the energy of it. Not its kinetic energy. A mini star travelling at 1 mph would burn straight through you. A paper ball coming at you at 1 mph is not going to do anything. It is the energy the Kamehameha contains(whether or not it explodes) which does the damage. The kinetic energy(momentum) is just there to be fast enough for you to not dodge or fire your own attack.

Kuririn in the Saiyan saga launched that slow moving Kamehameha that split up into several. It was not fast but anything the beam touched was fried it didn't explode. But the power of the attack was enough to vaporise the Saibamen. Sure there are attacks which have certain properties. But a majority of attacks, like the Kamehameha just rely on the energy contained within the attack itself.

So if I'm understanding what you're on about, you're saying a ki blast harms in three different ways:

(1)It explodes, creating a blast wave with a lot of concussive force (a la Goku's blast against Cell). There may be accompanying heat, but the damaging part is the explosive force after it detonates; after all, a miniature non-exploding star (as long as we're not talking about gravity or radiation or other such esoteric effects) isn't going to explode a planet, just melt to the center and maybe, given enough time and heat, melt the planet around it. An attack like this, if it detonates on you, must be resisted in two ways. One: you must endure the heat. Two: you must not get blown to pieces (you might get blown away, but as long as you're intact and not showing signs that the blast wave got through, such as Vegeta's disabled arm from Buu's blast, you've endured it).

(2)It doesn't explode, but harms via its energy intensity or heat (a la Goku's attack on Fat Buu). This is the miniature star that goes through its target and is countered by, what, heat resistance?

(3)It conveys its harm by pure kinetic force (a la the Sokidan). It might also be shaped into a form making its impact carry through despite an opponent's toughness (the Kienzan).

The third one still bugs me, though. The Sokidan isn't bypassing the opponent's durability by being razor-sharp or by high temperature. Yes, it may be capable of being modified in that way, but that's not how it was depicted. It was depicted as pure kinetic force vs the target's durability to physical force. Not heat, force. It doesn't melt or vaporize its way through the arena floor, it smashes through.

So if characters in this series have such a high physical durability vs what they can physically do, and if energy blasts have such a huge discrepancy between destructive energy and kinetic force, then how was the Sokidan ever supposed to do anything? Besides by being used by someone not-Yamcha.

[Hitiro]

If I entertain your idea that Boo was durable enough to withstand the attack but couldn't deal with the kinetic force then what would have happened is Fat Boo would have just been pushed until either the blast explodes, he collides with the ground or the kinetic force of the blast decreases to the point in which Fat Boo can push the blast.

Nothing. Would happen to Boo unless the explosion was enough to damage him. But the explosions innate energy comes from the Ki itself. If it can't damage him then it merely serves as something to push him along. A prime example is when Goku had to deal with that blast Freeza sent at him and it sent him flying through a mountain. He only managed to throw it away after the blast lost its momentum. In the same way, Boo can just cast off the blast if the momentum is below his strength or a force he has applied with a momentum exceeding the blast, such as a punch.

I'm saying Buu had neither the strength nor the durability to take that attack. These characters are not glass cannons. With the possible exception of something like the Super Dragon Fist or the Spirit Bomb (well, a Spirit Bomb used by Cell, anyway), I wouldn't argue that a character can hit harder than he can endure (I might question how wide the gulf is between the two, though). Indeed, Vegeta's Gallic Gun matched the Kaio 3 Kamehameha but was blasted into high atmosphere (but still survived without too much injury) by the Kaio 4 blast, so DBZ characters typically can endure more than they can output.

A DBZ character can endure more depending on the type of attack. If it was a Makankosappo that has a piercing quality then I doubt Vegeta would have survived. But the Kamehameha was only on par with Vegeta anyway. It wasn't above him in any way. Yes, Goku managed to push back Vegeta's Galick gun. Whatever Goku dished out that pushed the Kamehameha to hit Vegeta was probably a fraction of what it was during the Ki struggle.

My idea is that while we never see Buu apply strength against that blast, we do see his durability against the blast and it's insufficient.

I agree, Boo doesn't have the durability against the blast. But we should also take into consideration that Boo is one of the least durable characters in the story. Unless he outputs Ki into his body to increase his durability. Even with that he still needs a higher threshold of Ki to gain as much durability as a Human or Saiyan would. I mean all the characters we know can innately defend against bullet fire except for Boo.

Agreed, but I think at this point in the series, even with Buu-flesh starting out less durable than Saiyan-flesh, it is such a trivial matter for the Buus to make themselves more durable via ki that, except for gag-panels, they are that durable.

I would think that Boo needs to output more Ki to be as durable as a Saiyan or Human. Purely because of his usual durability being much lower. For all we know the Boo's probably need twice the amount of Ki to be as durable as a Saiyan of the same level.

I mean, we see such ease of body-changing and regeneration from the Buus that I have to wonder why they try to maintain any durability at all. We know they change shape for a momentary advantage (such as Buu stretching his waist away from SSJ3 Gotenks's punch), but when he and Gotenks are butting heads together in the HTC, wouldn't Buu have been better served by hust melting around Gotenks's head, taking no physical harm, and being in a much better position than sporting the same sort of bruise we see on Gotenks's head?

Boo doesn't seem to be bothered by durability if he can regenerate from the damage. But when the attack becomes too powerful for them to regenerate from they purposely avoid getting hit or try increasing their durability through Ki. Which is what I assume Boo did against the Genki Dama.

What do the motives matter? We're seeing similar results (Cell getting significant parts of his body blown off) from both versions. If unexploding and exploding energy blasts have the same destructive energy (must be true for both to give the same result), but one is conveying this by exploding (creating concussive force), and the other by not exploding (using kinetic energy), then what am I to conclude from that other than "exploding-concussive-force" = "unexploding-kinetic-force"?

I'm not talking about either. I'm talking about the energy within Ki that can disintegrate merely by touch. No kinetic force or concussive force. Just the energy itself. Which is what is covered in the next part.

So if I'm understanding what you're on about, you're saying a ki blast harms in three different ways:

(1)It explodes, creating a blast wave with a lot of concussive force (a la Goku's blast against Cell). There may be accompanying heat, but the damaging part is the explosive force after it detonates; after all, a miniature non-exploding star (as long as we're not talking about gravity or radiation or other such esoteric effects) isn't going to explode a planet, just melt to the center and maybe, given enough time and heat, melt the planet around it. An attack like this, if it detonates on you, must be resisted in two ways. One: you must endure the heat. Two: you must not get blown to pieces (you might get blown away, but as long as you're intact and not showing signs that the blast wave got through, such as Vegeta's disabled arm from Buu's blast, you've endured it).

(2)It doesn't explode, but harms via its energy intensity or heat (a la Goku's attack on Fat Buu). This is the miniature star that goes through its target and is countered by, what, heat resistance?

(3)It conveys its harm by pure kinetic force (a la the Sokidan). It might also be shaped into a form making its impact carry through despite an opponent's toughness (the Kienzan).

The third one still bugs me, though. The Sokidan isn't bypassing the opponent's durability by being razor-sharp or by high temperature. Yes, it may be capable of being modified in that way, but that's not how it was depicted. It was depicted as pure kinetic force vs the target's durability to physical force. Not heat, force. It doesn't melt or vaporize its way through the arena floor, it smashes through.

So if characters in this series have such a high physical durability vs what they can physically do, and if energy blasts have such a huge discrepancy between destructive energy and kinetic force, then how was the Sokidan ever supposed to do anything? Besides by being used by someone not-Yamcha.

Sokidan is not "Pure" kinetic force though. As I have said all forms of attack have the innate "energy intensity" as you call it. The "energy intensity" is what requires high durability. Getting knocked about by the Sokidan is bad because each time it hits you you're feeling the effects of the "energy intensity" if a regular human were to touch the Sokidan, forget the kinetic force behind the attack, the energy would disintegrate them. Would it not? Just like how dipping your hand into the sun would disintegrate it or dipping your hand into lava would disintegrate it. The "energy intensity" as you call it is stopped by durability. All attacks have this "energy intensity" exploding ones, kinetic ones and ones that explode.

If you think of the Kienzan as a finely sharp blade ready to cut through you it cuts through you a lot better as a searing hot blade that is sharp. You can think of the "energy intensity" as heat if you want. It acts in a similar fashion. I would not put a guess on it actually being a form of heat though because physics may be different when Ki is involved. The only real use for the kinetic force is to speed the deadly "energy intensity" filled attack to the opponent. Hopefully before they can put up a proper defence like increasing their durability through Ki. I would say it is a specific way to harm an opponent.

[ImmaDeker]

No. No character or hypothetical character in the Dragon universe could do such a feat. This is not DC or Marvel comics.

Technically, a hypothetical character could.

[KentalSSJ6]

No. No character or hypothetical character in the Dragon universe could do such a feat. This is not DC or Marvel comics.

Technically, a hypothetical character could.

Can we not extend the BS that is this thread?

[ImmaDeker]

Well, I'm just saying.

Hypothetically, a character could probably get that strong. Dragonball's entire wheelhouse is surpassing limits.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

No. No character or hypothetical character in the Dragon universe could do such a feat. This is not DC or Marvel comics.

Technically, a hypothetical character could.

Can we not extend the BS that is this thread?

personally I don't think it will anytime soon....

[rereboy]

If you want to be technical, multiverses can't be bench pressed.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

If you want to be technical, multiverses can't be bench pressed.

obviously....

[rereboy]

If you want to be technical, multiverses can't be bench pressed.

obviously....

Just as obvious as saying that, hypothetically, a character can any kind of power.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

If you want to be technical, multiverses can't be bench pressed.

obviously....

Just as obvious as saying that, hypothetically, a character can any kind of power.

True... A character is only as powerful as his creator makes him. But for a DBZ character reaching such feet will never happen. The characters of DBZ have limits unlike some other characters in today's media.