How have YOU made the Earthlings relevant again?

[rereboy]

Piccolo's power is enough for him to be a close match with second form Freeza and Vegeta's power is enough to make him much stronger than he was and a tiny bit stronger than third form Freeza which would make him over-confident enough to overestimate himself and underestimate final form Freeza. But the gaps are still wide enough for them to easily take each without much real trouble. Vegeta would take Piccolo like third form Freeza took Piccolo (around 25% difference in power) and Freeza would take Vegeta even if he didn't increased his power beyond 500.000, which he could and in my version I would make him increase his power a bit after Vegeta tried to fight him a bit just to crush his expectations.

You have a point about kaioken being close to SSJ but to rectify that I guess I would make Freeza's total power higher, perhaps around 3.850.000. Goku's kaioken being around 3.320.000, that would mean that Freeza would have to increase his power to around 80% to match it and negate it. It can be interpreted that he used 70% of his power to stop Goku's Kaioken in the manga (or at least more than the 50% he was using before), so I think it wouldn't be far off what happened in the manga and it would suffice. And Freeza being closer to Goku's SSJ would also be a good move so that the deciding factor would be Freeza starting to lose stamina and power like it happened in the manga.

I don't see Vegeta being a bit stronger than Goku at base at that point in time as a problem considering that he has kaioken to fall back on and Vegeta knows that very well, especially since the numbers I gave them don't differ much (5%). I could make them have the same exact power level but that would be too convenient and have Goku go from 90.000 to a higher level than Vegeta when Vegeta apparently had a higher level than 90.000 facing first form Freeza and then also had a Zenkai after that seems a bit too much in favor of Goku. By giving a slight edge in base power at that time, Goku would still have the higher zenkai but at least he wouldn't technically surpass Vegeta with it, and he would rely on the various degrees of Kaioken during his entire fight with Freeza.

Freeza's comment about Ginyu as always seemed out of place to me. He should have said to Vegeta when Vegeta revealed that he could somewhat take on first form Freeza. That would be the moment for it, both in the real manga and in this version I'm talking about.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo's power is enough for him to be a close match with second form Freeza and Vegeta's power is enough to make him much stronger than he was and a tiny bit stronger than third form Freeza which would make him over-confident enough to overestimate himself and underestimate final form Freeza. But the gaps are still wide enough for them to easily take each without much real trouble. Vegeta would take Piccolo like third form Freeza took Piccolo (around 25% difference in power) and Freeza would take Vegeta even if he didn't increased his power beyond 500.000, which he could and in my version I would make him increase his power a bit after Vegeta tried to fight him a bit just to crush his expectations.

You have a point about kaioken being close to SSJ but to rectify that I guess I would make Freeza's total power higher, perhaps around 3.850.000. Goku's kaioken being around 3.320.000, that would mean that Freeza would have to increase his power to around 80% to match it and negate it. It can be interpreted that he used 70% of his power to stop Goku's Kaioken in the manga (or at least more than the 50% he was using before), so I think it wouldn't be far off what happened in the manga and it would suffice. And Freeza being closer to Goku's SSJ would also be a good move so that the deciding factor would be Freeza starting to lose stamina and power like it happened in the manga.

I don't see Vegeta being a bit stronger than Goku at base at that point in time as a problem considering that he has kaioken to fall back on and Vegeta knows that very well, especially since the numbers I gave them don't differ much (5%). I could make them have the same exact power level but that would be too convenient and have Goku go from 90.000 to a higher level than Vegeta when Vegeta apparently had a higher level than 90.000 facing first form Freeza and then also had a Zenkai after that seems a bit too much in favor of Goku. By giving a slight edge in base power at that time, Goku would still have the higher zenkai but at least he wouldn't technically surpass Vegeta with it.

Okay, so Freeza wouldn't actually be 500,000 when pwning Vegeta?

That itself seems too high. That would make him nearly dead even with Goku. That's smaller than the gap of power between Goku and Piccolo at the start of the series. The manga didn't have the deciding factor be stamina. Goku was always stronger than Freeza. He absolutely annihilated him in combat, and he didn't even comment on Freeza's stamina dropping until the very end, and that's when he stopped the battle. In that whole battle (prior to Freeza's stamina dropping), Freezy Pop only get in 2-3 hits (only one of which was shown to damage Goku) and a Nova Strike, a barrier attack that he was able to land by taking Goku off guard. On the other hand, Goku landed many hits on Freeza, all of which wounded him, and took the Nova Strike with no significant damage. He even reduced Freeza to vomiting his own blood with a single jab. You could modify the fight so they're actually even, but IMO that would take away from the point of the battle, which is to see Freeza be completely outmatched after a whole arc of curb-stomping everyone. Decreasing the Kaio-ken numbers would be more fitting and easier.

So you'd be assuming Goku was using KK at the beginning of his battle with Freeza? Because otherwise he would have gotten crushed easier than Vegeta did.

[rereboy]

Freeza would start at 500.000, Vegeta at around 400.000, I suggested 420.000. Vegeta would attack, Freeza would be kind of impressed with his evolution but Vegeta wouldn't be able to actually hit him head on since Freeza would dodge everything, making use of his superior speed. And after that, just to mess with Vegeta, he would increase his power 100.000 or so and Vegeta would cry like in the manga in frustration. And then be would be beat up, slowly.

Well, Freeza actually held up himself pretty well against Goku, going through Kamehamehas and such. Of course Goku always had the superior power and he would win no matter what, but what ended up deciding things, rather than an attack from Goku, was Freeza starting to lose power. Until then he actually held up against Goku pretty well. That's why him having a closer power to Goku than what I had giving him, but Goku still being the superior one, is not a bad idea.

Yes, Goku would be using Kaioken from the start. Even in the real manga we can argue that he might have done so, so I think it would be a good idea. I would put Kaio explaining that Goku was using it right from the start.

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza would start at 500.000, Vegeta at around 400.000, I suggested 420.000. Vegeta would attack, Freeza would be kind of impressed with his evolution but Vegeta wouldn't be able to actually hit him head on since Freeza would dodge everything, making use of his superior speed. And after that, just to mess with Vegeta, he would increase his power a 100.000 or so and Vegeta would cry like in the manga in frustration. And then be would be beat up, slowly.

Well, Freeza actually held up himself pretty well against Goku, going through Kamehamehas and such. Of course Goku always had the superior power and he would win no matter what, but what end up deciding things, rather than an attack from Goku, was Freeza starting to lose power. Until then he actually held up against Goku pretty well. That's why him having a closer power to Goku than what I had giving him, but Goku still being the superior one, is not a bad idea.

Yes, Goku would be using Kaioken from the start. Even in the real manga we can argue that he might have done so, so I think it would be a good idea. I would put Kaio explaining that Goku was using it right from the start.

That'd make sense.

Not really. He was able to briefly hold off Goku's Kamehameha with a barrier, but that's not all that impressive, because... it's a barrier, that's what it's supposed to do. Plus, he pealed off pretty quickly, and smacked Goku with the barrier, which didn't injure him at all. When they hand to hand, Goku was very noticeably dominant.

The first time, Freeza tried to attack Goku from behind, but Goku dodged, grabbed his arm, headbutted him (bruising his face), twisted his arm (making him scream in pain), and threw him. Freeza tried to blast Goku while he was being launched, but Goku just dodged again. The second time, they both get one hit on each other (both making the other bleed a bit) before Goku dodges Freeza's next punch and jabs him in the stomach. Freeza vomits blood. Freeza chops Goku's back and kicks him away, but it apparently doesn't do much to Goku, since he immediately comes back and kicks Freeza in the face. Then he runs over to Freeza, punches him in the face again, knees him, and punches him into a rock. Every time he hits Freeza, the tyrant bleeds, and after the last hit has trouble standing. Goku was kicking Freeza's ass in a one-sided battle. That was the whole point.

Goku and Freeza didn't really fight after Freeza lost power... unless you count Goku dodging his Death Saucer and elbowing him in the head so he hit himself with one.

[rereboy]

What I mean is, even though Goku always had the upper hand, Freeza managed to stay in fight and trade (some) blows until he lost power. He was at a clear disadvantage, sure, but he was still in the fight. So, him not being THAT far behind in terms of power, makes sense.

[RandomGuy96]

What I mean is, even though Goku always had the upper hand, Freeza managed to stay in fight and trade (some) blows until he lost power. He was at a clear disadvantage, sure, but he was still in the fight. So, him not being THAT far behind in terms of power, makes sense.

Him being equal to Goku doesn't, though. Him being far behind in power does make sense, he just needs to be close enough to not immediately die and land one good punch. Which is pretty much what happened, and fits the difference the Daizenshuu gave them.

I dislike the "he lost power" angle because there was no sense that he was losing power throughout the fight. Disregarding the Nova Strike, which wasn't a measure of pure power, he was helpless at the beginning of the fight, landed one good hit in the middle (or two, if you're feeling really generous) while still horribly losing, and was helpless again at the end.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Can we really not have a thread talking about the human characters without it quickly turning into a 'they suck cuz they're not the Saiyans, the only way to make them relevant is to NERF EVERYTHING cuz feats yay' for the fiftieth time? *sigh*

[RandomGuy96]

Can we really not have a thread talking about the human characters without it quickly turning into a 'they suck cuz they're not the Saiyans, the only way to make them relevant is to NERF EVERYTHING cuz feats yay' for the fiftieth time? *sigh*

That's the truth, though. Your condescension is not going to change that. The trio that we're talking about here are just too weak to be relevant without massively nerfing at least Freeza (which I'm all in favor of!), because that's how DB works. Power is 95% of the story, whether people like to admit it or not. They could be useful otherwise if they had magical abilities that had nothing to do with ki, vast intellect, or some other valuable non-power attribute, but they don't. Their only strengths have always been punching things.

Krillin himself was already decently relevant. He just needed to be given a bit more to do in the Freeza arc and maybe Saiyan arc, and at least one solid victory over a named character (like perhaps a minor Dodoria-tier Freeza henchman, or a minor one of Babidi's henchmen as a "warm-up" fight before Dabra one-shots him). Yajirobe got to be a big help in two arcs by killing one of Daimao's warriors, saving Goku's life twice, defeating Oozaru Vegeta, and inflicting good damage on Vegeta himself with a surprise attack. Not bad for a minor character. Bulma invented a bunch of useful gadgets, like the dragon radar and time machine. Mr. Satan "defeated" two different Buus! They don't need much more glory. When people complain about the humans being irrelevant in Z, they're mainly talking about Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu, but they're also ignoring that they weren't ever relevant after their introductions. Even when they technically had enough strength to help out, they were still completely useless, usually due to being stupid (Yamcha's incident with the Cultivar, Tenshinhan getting taken hostage due to sticking around to watch Goku and Piccolo fight, Tenshinhan bringing a broken jar to seal Piccolo, Tenshinhan killing himself rather than just regrowing his arm and helping Piccolo and Krillin, etc.).

Also, it somewhat amuses me that Gohan apparently doesn't count as an "Earthling/human". Apparently Mr. Satan doesn't either, since despite being one of the major characters in the Buu arc and vital to Buu's defeat, everyone says that only the Saiyans were relevant in the Buu arc. I guess Mr. Buu, Mr. Satan, Kibito, Elder Kaioshin, and every human/animal/monster on the planet didn't contribute at all.

[Kaboom]

I somewhat agree with Gyt Kaliba though. The original intent of the thread seemed to be more about things from a narrative sense, like how the human fighters could be helpful despite their relatively lower power (as they were in the Androids arc), or even ways for the non-fighter humans to be helpful too (like Bulma during GT).

If all one wants to do is brainstorm about hypothetical "other characters are weak enough for the humans to keep up" power level sequences, then we have a separate thread for the creation and discussion of power level lists where that can be taken (especially at the risk of predictable "debates" forming). Making a list that starts with a weaker Freeza and less explosive Super Saiyan boost actually sounds like fun to me.

[RandomGuy96]

I somewhat agree with Gyt Kaliba though. The original intent of the thread seemed to be more about things from a narrative sense, like how the human fighters could be helpful despite their relatively lower power (as they were in the Androids arc), or even ways for the non-fighter humans to be helpful too (like Bulma during GT).

If all one wants to do is brainstorm about hypothetical "other characters are weak enough for the humans to keep up" power level sequences, then we have a separate thread for the creation and discussion of power level lists where that can be taken (especially at the risk of predictable "debates" forming). Making a list that starts with a weaker Freeza and less explosive Super Saiyan boost actually sounds like fun to me.

No, the OP asked people what their ideas were for lettering the humans "keep up with the Saiyans", and then praised the ideas of the posts right after, most of which focused on making the humans stronger. It seemed pretty obvious to me that this thread was supposed to be about keeping the humans relevant in battle, and why shouldn't it be? The trio that we're talking about here is pathetic and worthless without high power levels (or even with them, in some cases).

I even asked why making the humans "relevant" and letting them "keep up" would be good for story, since Chaozu, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha are boring characters, and them being stronger wouldn't really make anything better, but that apparently never factored in to anyone's thinking. As this is the fan-created works section, and the OP asked how would have the humans keep up with the saiyans, simply suggesting ways to power up the humans and power down everyone else is a completely reasonable response. On that hypothetical "less OP Freeza/SS" list: well, for me, simply apply the levels I gave to the Freeza fight, so SS Goku and Freeza end up being 1,500,000 and 1,200,000, then divide every relevant power after by a hundred.

[TheZFighter]

Can we really not have a thread talking about the human characters without it quickly turning into a 'they suck cuz they're not the Saiyans, the only way to make them relevant is to NERF EVERYTHING cuz feats yay' for the fiftieth time? *sigh*

Thread = ruined.

Thanks for trying guys.

[Kid Buu]

I kind of that instead of creating Yajirobe, Toriyama just gave his role to Oolong instead, mainly because they have similar personalities and the idea of Oolong cutting of an Oozaru's tail is a hilarious throwback. Alternatively, it might have been nice to have had Lunch travel with Goku in the Daimao arc instead. I always wish we saw more interactions between those two.

[RandomGuy96]

I kind of that instead of creating Yajirobe, Toriyama just gave his role to Oolong instead, mainly because they have similar personalities and the idea of Oolong cutting of an Oozaru's tail is a hilarious throwback. Alternatively, it might have been nice to have had Lunch travel with Goku in the Daimao arc instead. I always wish we saw more interactions between those two.

I think that having Oolong cut off Vegeta's tail would just take away from the tension and turn it into a gag moment. Yajirobe was horribly outclassed, but he still caught Vegeta off guard with a sword and was rocking a battle power of close to a thousand. Oolong is no stronger than a regular human.

[Kid Buu]

No stronger than a regular human? He's as strong as initial Kid Goku according to a Toei pamphlet.

*Sigh*

[rereboy]

Can we really not have a thread talking about the human characters without it quickly turning into a 'they suck cuz they're not the Saiyans, the only way to make them relevant is to NERF EVERYTHING cuz feats yay' for the fiftieth time? *sigh*

The problem is that saiyans have zenkais and SSJ. And giving something to the humans that can match those things, when nothing like that in the series is suggested for them, feels contrived. So, without changing a lot of what happens in the series, it just ends up being easier and more logical to just diminish the gains that the saiyans get while increasing the humans' power logically (kaioken and other techniques).

Just look at what I suggested, for example. Goku would still be far away from the humans, but he would just have a power of 4 million, not 150 million. That difference is HUGE, and Goku would still be powerful enough to put us in awe of his power while not being so far ahead of the humans that they can't possibly be relevant.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Maybe I could have phrased my annoyance a bit better, but I still feel my issue stands. Perhaps the thread starter did mean it to go in this direction, in which case that's fine, but from my own POV we had a nice thread that was talking story-related things about how to give the humans more to do...and then it all once again turned into 'human characters are worthless unless we do this blargh' like usual. And to me that is beyond old now. So what if Dragon Ball is primarily about fighting. There was a time when it was equally about fighting and humor, but nowadays it seems like half of you can't stand the human characters in THAT material even. Am I really one of the few fans anymore who enjoys the series for more than 'who can beat who cuz stats'?

[rereboy]

I, for one, think that the manga would only gain in making the humans more relevant, so I agree that bashing the human characters is not the way to go, but nerfing the saiyans is not the same as bashing the humans, imo.

I also disagree in them not ever being relevant. Just because they were weaker than Goku, and Goku, as the hero, had to be the one to save the day, it doesn't mean they weren't relevant. Up until Namek, there were always still there, fighting and having screen time and having moments where they looked good. They always looked good on the tournaments, showing off their progress and even in the Saiyan arc they looked good by making clear that pretty much all of them could have beaten Raditz and such. Of course they couldn't compare to the hero of the story, Goku, but they were relevant for the screen time and also in terms of power.

Only after the events of Namek, with zenkais and SSJ, that changed. Goku got 150 million in power level when Vegeta was just 18.000 in the previous arc, and the humans, without zenkais or SSj had no way to even begin to cover that. So they soon became irrelevant even in the fights where they showed up. The moments in which they could show off their progress and could look good became rare, and in the buu saga they pretty much disappeared, victim of the massive gap in power between them and those of saiyan blood.

So nerfing the gaps made by the Namek arc becomes pretty much imperative for the relevance of the human fighters.

[RandomGuy96]

I, for one, think that the manga would only gain in making the humans more relevant, so I agree that bashing the human characters is not the way to go, but nerfing the saiyans is not the same as bashing the humans, imo.

I also disagree in them not ever being relevant. Just because they were weaker than Goku, and Goku, as the hero, had to be the one to save the day, it doesn't mean they weren't relevant. Up until Namek, there were always still there, fighting and having screen time and having moments where they looked good. They always looked good on the tournaments, showing off their progress and even in the Saiyan arc they looked good by making clear that pretty much all of them could have beaten Raditz and such. Of course they couldn't compare to the hero of the story, Goku, but they were relevant for the screen time and also in terms of power.

Only after the events of Namek, with zenkais and SSJ, that changed. Goku got 150 million in power level when Vegeta was just 18.000 in the previous arc, and the humans, without zenkais or SSj had no way to even begin to cover that. So they soon became irrelevant even in the fights where they showed up. The moments in which they could show off their progress and could look good became rare, and in the buu saga they pretty much disappeared, victim of the massive gap in power between them and those of saiyan blood.

So nerfing the gaps made by the Namek arc becomes pretty much imperative for the relevance of the human fighters.

I disagree that the tournaments or other small moments where they could show off their progress made them "relevant". Yeah, they're nice moments if you want to throw some minor characters a bone, but they never actually had a point. They still couldn't do anything to actually help in battle, even when their power levels should technically have been high enough to allow it, so they were always irrelevant. Goku and Gohan being the main heroes of Z didn't stop Vegeta, Piccolo, and Krillin from helping in the fights, so it's not like the supporting characters have always HAD to suck as much as these three did. Even Yajirobe was able to be a big help with a combination of cleverness and cowardice. Also, the only Earthlings shown to surpass Raditz were Ten and Krillin. Yamcha seemed to be implied to be his equal (and is technically 1% weaker going by official sources), and Chaozu and Yajirobe were still weaker. Heck, if anything, being strong enough to beat a Cultivar yet still dying due to his own arrogance makes Yamcha look bad, not good.

If all you want to do is give them little moments to show that they were stronger than they were in the last arc, that can be done without actually making them any stronger than they were in the manga. Just have Cold bring some Ginyu-level henchmen, or let them fight some of Babidi's generic grunts and say they're each stronger than early Namek arc base Goku or something. Krillin could casually one-shot one outside of the ship and Ten could encounter one who was searching for significant energy sources in whatever mountain he was training in. Like the tournaments, you can let them show off the fruits of their training while still not having the battles actually mean anything. The anime pretty much did that with the Ginyu fight, actually.

[rereboy]

I think you are basically thinking of the notion "relevant" as in something being an essential or at least useful part in ultimately beating the bad guy. To me relevant doesn't mean just that. I see relevant as in relevant to the manga itself. To me relevant is something that actually occupies screen time, that is interesting, cool and such. And the human fighters were always that before the Namek saga, and hardly anything at all like that after it. It ultimately almost always had to be Goku to take care of the big bad all by himself, but they were always relevant, imo.

And giving them more moments to shine is good, but its not as good as making them closer to the saiyans and giving them moments to shine. Think about Tenshinhan versus Taopaipai and Tenshinhan versus Goku in the 23rd tournament. The fight against Taopaipai is a great moment for him to shine, like you said, but without the fight with Goku, which is only possible due to Tenshinhan not being THAT outclassed by Goku, Tenshinhan wouldn't look nearly as good, and we would lose an interesting fight and the whole arc would be worse for it. The focus would be much more on Goku and how good he is, instead of the focus also showing us how good other guys are, which makes the arc richer. Therefore, giving them those moments would be great, but making them much closer to the saiyans and giving them moments like that would be far better because it varies the focus a lot more while still keeping the attention of the reader since they are not THAT behind the saiyans.

[RandomGuy96]

I think you are basically thinking of the notion "relevant" as in something being an essential or at least useful part in ultimately beating the bad guy. To me relevant doesn't mean just that. I see relevant as in relevant to the manga itself. To me relevant is something that actually occupies screen time, that is interesting, cool and such. And the human fighters were always that before the Namek saga, and hardly anything at all like that after it. It ultimately almost always had to be Goku to take care of the big bad all by himself, but they were always relevant, imo.

And giving them more moments to shine is good, but its not as good as making them closer to the saiyans. Think about Tenshinhan versus Taopaipai and Tenshinhan versus Goku in the 23rd tournament. The fight against Taopaipai is a great moment for him to shine, like you said, but without the fight with Goku, which is only possible due to Tenshinhan not being THAT outclassed by Goku, Tenshinhan wouldn't look nearly as good, and we would lose an interesting fight and the whole arc would be worse for it. The focus would be much more on Goku and how good he is, instead of the focus also showing us how good other guys are, which makes the arc richer. Therefore, giving them those moments would be great, but making them much closer to the saiyans and giving them moments like that would be far better because it varies the focus a lot more.

I disagree on them being "cool" or "interesting". With one exception, their abilities were gimmicky, useless, and/or never got the chance to be effective, and it seems like Toriyama was going out of his way to make them look bad (even with Krillin himself, pre-Z). If you define relevant as how much screen time they have, then okay. But if their version of being relevant is just having battles that don't matter and doing nothing but suck while one person defeats the main villain, then what's the point? Why should they be relevant? I also disagree on them ever being stronger than Freeza, even in this hypothetical version of the story where Freeza is way weaker.

I'm not sure how making them closer to the Saiyans and half-Saiyans would in any way enhance the story. The reason they were dropped as far as screen time goes was because they were replaced by better characters (Krillin = Yamcha, Piccolo = Tenshinhan). That fight was only possible because Goku was massively holding back; Ten being in any way close to Goku wasn't necessary. And given that Piccolo Jr stated that all of the humans together couldn't lay a finger on him, even while he was half dead and exhausted, the original intent seems to be making him pathetically weak compared to Goku.