Unpopular DB opinions

[RandomGuy96]

Nadolny's Gohan is better than her Goku.

we're never given any explanation for why Freeza is so strong.

What explanation would suffice? It's simple genetics and pseudoscience.

Genetics don't explain it. The only explanation we ever get is a hint that Freeza is a mutant. That doesn't explain why he's thousands of times stronger than the other mutants (Ginyu Force), or why he's thousands of times stronger than the guy who was explicitly stated to be the strongest in the universe in the last arc.

[rereboy]

Nadolny's Gohan is better than her Goku.

we're never given any explanation for why Freeza is so strong.

What explanation would suffice? It's simple genetics and pseudoscience.

Genetics don't explain it. The only explanation we ever get is a hint that Freeza is a mutant. That doesn't explain why he's thousands of times stronger than the other mutants (Ginyu Force), or why he's thousands of times stronger than the guy who was explicitly stated to be the strongest in the universe in the last arc.

Its implied that his race is just that naturally strong in the manga, and with the guides and such, by stating he is a mutant, we can safely assume that not only is his race that powerful, but Freeza and his family, as mutants from that race, are even stronger.

You don't need an explanation for why saiyans are naturally stronger than humans, do you? They just are. Their race is like that. Freeza's race is the same, just more extreme.

[Zephyr]

Freeza's insane power makes plenty of sense in universe. This is the universe of a gag manga, the absurd is the norm. Even though this isn't a point in the series where gags are really a thing, and it's not meant to be taken as comedy, the absurdity of Freeza's power is entirely consistent with the logic (or lack thereof) the series is built on. Freeza being comically overpowered is one way to look at it, only unlike the Red Ribbon Army arc, they're fighting against someone comically overpowered.

[RandomGuy96]

Its implied that his race is just that naturally strong in the manga, and with the guides and such, by stating he is a mutant, we can safely assume that not only is his race that powerful, but Freeza and his family, as mutants from that race, are even stronger.

You don't need an explanation for why saiyans are naturally stronger than humans, do you? They just are. Their race is like that. Freeza's race is the same, just more extreme.

I don't. But if one saiyan came along and was ten thousand times stronger than the other saiyans, including another saiyan who was explicitly stated to be the strongest saiyan a few chapters ago, I'm going to need an explanation beyond "he's a saiyan". That's essentially the situation with Freeza.

Freeza's insane power makes plenty of sense in universe. This is the universe of a gag manga, the absurd is the norm. Even though this isn't a point in the series where gags are really a thing, and it's not meant to be taken as comedy, the absurdity of Freeza's power is entirely consistent with the logic (or lack thereof) the series is built on. Freeza being comically overpowered is one way to look at it, only unlike the Red Ribbon Army arc, they're fighting against someone comically overpowered.

Goku wasn't comically overpowered in the RRA arc. He was much weaker than other martial artists on Earth and a sufficiently large military force could still kill him. Freeza's a different matter altogether; he's the strongest in the universe, strong enough to kill every other top warrior in the universe combined with just his finger in his first form (except Cold), and way stronger than the guy who was explicitly stated to be the strongest in the universe in the last arc, and no explanation is ever given for any of it beyond a hint that he may be a mutant. Which doesn't explain anything, since that explanation was already used for the Ginyus, who are thousands of times weaker than Freeza. Yet for some reason people complain when Freeza is surpassed.

No other arc had such a ridiculous power inflation. Case in point, Goku only got about 50% stronger in the Piccolo Daimao arc, and maybe 2-3 times stronger in between the RRA arc and 22nd Budokai. King Piccolo wasn't many times stronger than Tenshinhan, and Tenshinhan wasn't many times stronger than Tao Paipai. Piccolo Jr wasn't even twice as strong as King Piccolo even if you go purely by the manga. Heck, even the jump in power from Piccolo (408) to Vegeta (18,000) wasn't THAT insane. It was much smaller than the jump from Vegeta to Freeza. In fact, even if Freeza were a hundred times weaker, it'd STILL be a far bigger jump. For the most part, gigantic jumps in power don't happen like that again. Majin Buu is only a few times stronger than Cell for most of his screen time (as Pure Buu and Fat Buu, since Cell is SS2-tier and these Buus are only around SS3-tier, which is x4 SS2-tier), and arguably still less than x50 as strong as him in his strongest form (Super Buuhan). Cell himself is only about x50 stronger than Freeza (going by BOG and some manga implications). Freeza, on the other hand, is freaking 6,666 time stronger than Vegeta.

[rereboy]

I don't. But if one saiyan came along and was ten thousand times stronger than the other saiyans, including another saiyan who was explicitly stated to be the strongest saiyan a few chapters ago, I'm going to need an explanation beyond "he's a saiyan". That's essentially the situation with Freeza.

Since Freeza's father (and Cold if you want to go by filler) were around Freeza's power, we know that, either all of his family is extraordinary even for their race (mutants), or their race is supposed to be that strong naturally. That's all we need to know, honestly.

Broly is essentially a mutant of the Saiyan race, for example. Why is he so strong? Well, because he is the legendary SSJ. Ok, but why? Well, he's basically a freak of nature, that's all there is to it. Saiyans are pretty strong but he's abnormally strong even for saiyan standards. Freeza and his family are either kind of like that or their entire race has naturally that level of power.

[Kamiccolo9]

Nadolny's Gohan is better than her Goku.

we're never given any explanation for why Freeza is so strong.

What explanation would suffice? It's simple genetics and pseudoscience.

Genetics don't explain it. The only explanation we ever get is a hint that Freeza is a mutant. That doesn't explain why he's thousands of times stronger than the other mutants (Ginyu Force), or why he's thousands of times stronger than the guy who was explicitly stated to be the strongest in the universe in the last arc.

The same reason why Franklin Richards, Vulcan, Magneto, and Jean Grey are all infinitely stronger than Toad or Beak. Not all mutations are equal.

[ABED]

I don't. But if one saiyan came along and was ten thousand times stronger than the other saiyans, including another saiyan who was explicitly stated to be the strongest saiyan a few chapters ago, I'm going to need an explanation beyond "he's a saiyan". That's essentially the situation with Freeza.

What explanation would suffice? It's all made up gobbledygook. Why can Superman fly without any means of propulsion? Any explanation would be made up.

since that explanation was already used for the Ginyus

So they can't use the explanation again?

[RandomGuy96]

I don't. But if one saiyan came along and was ten thousand times stronger than the other saiyans, including another saiyan who was explicitly stated to be the strongest saiyan a few chapters ago, I'm going to need an explanation beyond "he's a saiyan". That's essentially the situation with Freeza.

Since Freeza's father (and Cold if you want to go by filler) were around Freeza's power, we know that, either all of his family is extraordinary even for their race (mutants), or their race is supposed to be that strong naturally. That's all we need to know, honestly.

Broly is essentially a mutant of the Saiyan race, for example. Why is he so strong? Well, because he is the legendary SSJ. Ok, but why? Well, he's basically a freak of nature, that's all there is to it. Saiyans are pretty strong but he's abnormally strong even for saiyan standards. Freeza and his family are either kind of like that or their entire race has naturally that level of power.

That's still not an explanation. That's essentially just "he's thousands of times stronger than the other mutants and way stronger than his dad too because he just is, and he's stronger than the guy who was supposed to be the strongest in the universe a few chapters ago because shut up". I don't have a problem with "this species is just really strong naturally", but not only is that not the explanation for Freeza (we don't get any indication his race is strong in the manga, and Toriyama implies he doesn't even really have one), it doesn't explain why he in particular is strong compared to other mutants and even the other members of his race (the only power statement we get in regards to Cold aside from the generic "his ki is big" is that his power is nothing compared to Freeza's). Nor does it explain the "Vegeta is the strongest in the universe" thing, or why he's literally thousands of times stronger than the third or fourth strongest guy in the universe. Piccolo Daimao was pretty much just a regular Namekian, not even a fighting type, but he was a big fish in a small pond on Earth.

Vegeta was a member of the Saiyan nobility, making him special even compared to other Saiyans, and through a combination of battle and genetics was able to go beyond even Saiyan elite level, yet he wasn't a thousand times stronger than Nappa (unlike Freeza, who's a thousand times stronger than Ginyu even though the explanation for both of them being strong is "they're mutants"). Cell was a genetic chimera of the strongest warriors in the universe. Majin Buu was a demon made by an extremely powerful wizard implied to be from the Demon Realm to wage war on the gods. Freeza... is just a really strong guy because he is, shut up.

All you're really doing is listing more reasons why Broly sucks.

[ABED]

Who claimed Vegeta was the strongest in the universe?

What explanation will suffice? It's all non-sense. Why's he stronger? He just is, you're overthinking this.

All you're really doing is listing more reasons why Broly sucks.

Why?

[Kid Buu]

Vegeta proclaimed he was the strongest in the universe in the Saiyan Arc.

[ABED]

Vegeta proclaimed he was the strongest in the universe in the Saiyan Arc.

So we're taking a self proclamation of a psychopath and a person with an inferiority complex as evidence?

Majin Buu was a demon made by an extremely powerful wizard implied to be from the Demon Realm to wage war on the gods. Freeza... is just a really strong guy because he is, shut up.

This is all arbitrary. How is magic that is somehow stronger than gods something you'll buy, but a freak of nature that was born that way too much for you?

[Gyt Kaliba]

It's been a while since I've put one of these in, so you know what? I'm gonna vent a little and toss this one out there, and yes, I'm going to quote Abridged to start it off.

"POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT".

Let me expand that further though by saying that power levels - not just the numerical ones that scouters read, but just how strong a character is supposed to be in general - are not worth paying near as much attention to as a lot of people here seem to as of late. Dragon Ball is and always was a series that was about fighting. That's something that's just at it's very core, and no matter how you slice it, who beats up who is always going to be the main focus of a storyline. And I get that, I really, really do. But Dragon Ball is still so much more than that. There's comedy, there's great characters, there's a great (though not infallible) storyline), but no, let's ignore all of that and focus only on who can beat who because the story may or may not imply that this one thing was true at point A in the series, therefore it must never be able to be changed in any future stories or it's 'RUINED FOREVER'.

And the worst part is that all of this focus on just the fighting aspect of the franchise is really starting to take it's toll on people's perceptions of the characters that either don't fight or, even more so, the characters that do but aren't nearly as over-the-top strong as the main characters are. Everything is open to poke fun at of course, but lately it's gotten to be where it's almost more vicious than anything else. Suddenly these characters that have been around much longer than some other characters are "worthless", or "should have been tossed away earlier" just because they weren't written to be given the benefit of main character status later in the series. So just because they weren't able to keep up - again, much more of a story issue than it is a true power one - everything they ever did before, whether it was fighting related or not, is suddenly "worthless"? I just don't get it, and I'm not entirely sure I want to.

[RandomGuy96]

So we're taking a self proclamation of a psychopath and a person with an inferiority complex as evidence?

It wasn't a boast or anything, he was thinking to himself. If he knew about someone far stronger, as the Freeza arc says he did, then he would not have thought this.

This is all arbitrary. How is magic that is somehow stronger than gods something you'll buy, but a freak of nature that was born that way too much for you?

Because unlike "he's a mutant", that explanation had not been used and does not create plot holes. Also, Buu has a reason for being stronger than Vegeta, while Freeza just is because Toriyama forgot what he wrote.

It's been a while since I've put one of these in, so you know what? I'm gonna vent a little and toss this one out there, and yes, I'm going to quote Abridged to start it off.

"POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT".

The funny thing is, people completely miss the context when they quote that. The whole joke is that Vegeta is being an ignorant jackass.

Let me expand that further though by saying that power levels - not just the numerical ones that scouters read, but just how strong a character is supposed to be in general - are not worth paying near as much attention to as a lot of people here seem to as of late. Dragon Ball is and always was a series that was about fighting. That's something that's just at it's very core, and no matter how you slice it, who beats up who is always going to be the main focus of a storyline. And I get that, I really, really do. But Dragon Ball is still so much more than that. There's comedy, there's great characters, there's a great (though not infallible) storyline), but no, let's ignore all of that and focus only on who can beat who because the story may or may not imply that this one thing was true at point A in the series, therefore it must never be able to be changed in any future stories or it's 'RUINED FOREVER'.

The series is about fighting. Power is literally the most important thing in the story. This is stated outright in the very first tournament arc.

Great story? Not really. The story is ridiculously simplistic most of the time, and being written by a guy who admits he was making shit up as he went along.

You're completely strawmanning everyone who cares about relative strengths in your last sentence.

And the worst part is that all of this focus on just the fighting aspect of the franchise is really starting to take it's toll on people's perceptions of the characters that either don't fight or, even more so, the characters that do but aren't nearly as over-the-top strong as the main characters are. Everything is open to poke fun at of course, but lately it's gotten to be where it's almost more vicious than anything else. Suddenly these characters that have been around much longer than some other characters are "worthless", or "should have been tossed away earlier" just because they weren't written to be given the benefit of main character status later in the series. So just because they weren't able to keep up - again, much more of a story issue than it is a true power one - everything they ever did before, whether it was fighting related or not, is suddenly "worthless"? I just don't get it, and I'm not entirely sure I want to.

I'm pretty sure you're referring to me here, going by some recent conversations. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe I think these guys are bad characters in ADDITION to being weak? They were uninteresting, and even when they were strong enough to help, they failed due to being morons or because the plot changed things about how the battle power system works to make them look more pathetic. Mr. Satan is my favorite hero, and he can't fight the villains at all. But he's useful in other ways, and he's entertaining, interesting, and has a good heart.

Why does being around for a while automatically make them worthy of respect? Ten's been around for a while. But he's static, he's weak, and he's dumb.

[ABED]

It wasn't a boast or anything, he was thinking to himself. If he knew about someone far stronger, as the Freeza arc says he did, then he would not have thought this.

Out of universe answer - continuity error since AT had yet to think of Freeza.
In Universe - Vegeta's a villain and can lie, including to himself.

Because unlike "he's a mutant", that explanation had not been used and does not create plot holes. Also, Buu has a reason for being stronger than Vegeta, while Freeza just is because Toriyama forgot what he wrote.

So? The same explanation can be used again. There's no plot hole. He's just strong, and as someone pointed out, not all mutations are equal. Buu has a fictional reason for being stronger than Vegeta. It's completely arbitrary why you accept Buu's magic, but can't accept "Freeza just is." Toriyama didn't forget what he wrote at all. He just intended to write the ultimate villain. You are REALLY overthinking this. Some people are born with preternaturally able to play the piano at young ages, and in the DB world, some are just preternaturally strong. It requires no explanation, he just is.

This seems like a discussion better suited for its own thread.

[RandomGuy96]

Out of universe answer - continuity error since AT had yet to think of Freeza.
In Universe - Vegeta's a villain and can lie, including to himself.

There is no in-universe answer, it's a retcon. Vegeta would not think he's the strongest in the universe if he was not. The context of the scene does not support him lying in his own mind (also, I HATE the "the villain was lying in their own mind" argument whenever it is used, like when the ASOIAF fandom tries to argue that Robert wasn't a rapist). It's very simple.

So? The same explanation can be used again. There's no plot hole. He's just strong, and as someone pointed out, not all mutations are equal. Buu has a fictional reason for being stronger than Vegeta. Toriyama didn't forget what he wrote at all. He just intended to write the ultimate villain. You are REALLY overthinking this. Some people are born with preternaturally able to play the piano at young ages, and in the DB world, some are just preternaturally strong. It requires no explanation, he just is.

He either forgot, or doesn't give a shit about keeping his own work consistent. Which is better?

There's nothing to overthink, because we don't get an explanation. He just is. Everyone else got some explanation for why they were so strong. Freeza just shows up and is randomly thousands upon thousands of times stronger than everyone else for no explained reason, and his existence contradicts the last arc as well. Even the movie villains have better excuses than him. On top of that, he shares so many things with the villain of the last arc that it's ridiculous. He's just a very poorly conceived character in general.

[ABED]

Vegeta lies to himself ALL THE TIME. He constantly thinks he's better than he truly is.

There's nothing to overthink, because we don't get an explanation. He just is. Everyone else got some explanation for why they were so strong. Freeza just shows up and is randomly thousands upon thousands of times stronger than everyone else for no explained reason, and his existence contradicts the last arc as well. On top of that, he shares so many things with the villain of the last arc that it's ridiculous. He's just a very poorly conceived character in general.

And why are Saiyans so strong? No explanation is given. They just are. Why can magic make some creature that's stronger than gods? It's all arbitrary. Why does a demon killing you mean you end up in limbo? It just does. Why does yellow sunlight give Kryptonians superpowers? It just does.

What explanation would suffice?

So what if Freeza has traits in common with another villain? What was poorly conceived other than this arbitrary line you've drawn?

I'm gonna create a thread for this discussion.

[RandomGuy96]

Vegeta lies to himself ALL THE TIME. He constantly thinks he's better than he truly is.

Not really, no.

And why are Saiyans so strong? No explanation is given. They just are. Why can magic make some creature that's stronger than gods? It's all arbitrary. Why does a demon killing you mean you end up in limbo? It just does. Why does yellow sunlight give Kryptonians superpowers? It just does.

None of these compare to the amount of "just because" used to justify Freeza's strength. The Saiyans are strong because they're a warrior race. I have no problem believing that one race can be on average stronger than most others. Buu is strong because he was a freak accident made by powerful magic, not something that can be repeated. I have no problem buying that, because up to this point we had never been given a limit on what sufficiently strong magic could do (also, if you go by the recent Toriyama interviews, which I don't, he's more like a god that's been around since the beginning of time). Plus, he is literally made of magic, so he has an excuse if he doesn't make sense (which he mostly does). What I do have a problem with is a new character being introduced, being stated to be thousands of times stronger than everyone else including the guy who was stated to be the strongest in the universe a few chapters ago, and then no explanation at all being given for why he's so strong, or why no one mentioned him in the last arc.

What explanation would suffice? So what if Freeza has traits in common with another villain? What was poorly conceived other than this arbitrary line you've drawn?

Everything I've listed. It's not at all arbitrary; he's generic, he's a rip-off of the last villain, and he causes plot holes by simply existing. I think he's overrated as hell. If you don't agree that all these things make the character bad... well, that's why it's the opinions thread.

[Kid Buu]

We know the entire backstory of Daimao, Cell, and Buu from their births. With Vegeta, it was established early on what Saiyan Culture is like and how they are. The only backstory we get with Freeza is his history with the Saiyans, but even there he is still the same person as he is in the present.

He either forgot, or doesn't give a shit about keeping his own work consistent. Which is better?

It seems to be the latter. Despite reading the manga again recently, Toriyama just loves to retcon Beerus into everything via his interviews. I guess he cares more about pushing his latest film than consistency.

[ABED]

You still have not answered what explanation would suffice?

[RandomGuy96]

You still have not answered what explanation would suffice?

Make it explicit that Freeza is a mutant from a powerful race, expand on why being a mutant makes him strong, make him much weaker (he can still be stronger than everyone else, but thirty times stronger than the last villain in his first form, and a thousand times stronger than his top henchman in his final form, is just outright ridiculous) and, most importantly, make it so Vegeta never knew about him. Also, give some history on his species and organization. We know nothing about him in the his own story arc other than that he's a smug, arrogant, short-tempered brute (aside from the Saiyan thing, but as Kid Buu pointed out that doesn't really count as back story for him because he's the same character as he is in the present).

It seems to be the latter. Despite reading the manga again recently, Toriyama just loves to retcon Beerus into everything via his interviews. I guess he cares more about pushing his latest film than consistency.

I can't say I blame the man. New boats don't pay for themselves.