Goku's God potential?

[Tectorman]

The only thing we know given the movie is that God Ki, at the moment, can't be sensed by the Z-senshi. Whether you need God Ki to sense a person with God Ki or whether they need to train themselves to sense God Ki like they had to train themselves to sense regular Ki is unclear. I find it strange Goku would just instantly be able to sense God Ki just from acquiring God Ki when they had to learn how to sense Ki when they had regular Ki. I also find it strange that if SSJGod Goku could sense God Ki then why was he asking if he had SSJGod? Surely he could sense something from Whis and Beerus. It seems that even Beerus can't sense God Ki because he was unsure until they started fighting.

Beers tells Vegeta that Ki doesn't work on deities. It's not "Well, somewhere out there is a super genius martial artist that could use Ki to sense me; this genius just won't ever be you," it's "you might figure out how to sense me, Vegeta, it's just not going to be by using Ki." Beers presumably has a lot of experience with this so I don't see it being disputed. Beers says Ki doesn't work on gods. That means it doesn't.

As for Goku not being sure whether he was a god, that can be attributed to him having previously powered up but without achieving godhood. As far as he knew, he was more successful but not necessarily fully successful.

Goku teleporting around can simply be attributed to him using his friends Ki sources as waypoints. We know if he locks onto a Ki source he doesn't need to teleport right next to it. It is more a point of reference than anything.

I would love to be a fly on that wall.

(After the fight with Beers, Goku goes back to King Kai's place.)

King Kai: So, Goku, I was wondering something about how you were fighting with Beers towards the end.

Goku: Yeah, it was really wild and we switched to energy blasts...

KK: I'm talking about after you fell out of the god form.

G: I didn't even know I had. I was too caught up in the fighting.

KK: And you no longer had that Godly Ki, so you couldn't sense Beers.

G: Yeah, but he was right in front of me so that wasn't an issue.

KK: And you were teleporting with those fingers on your forehead. How were you doing that? I was under the impression you had to be able to sense the person to teleport around them.

G: Oh, you're right. I couldn't sense Beers, but my friends were down on the planet's surface, so I just used their energy to navigate.

KK: You mean, you don't have to teleport right on top of someone? You can put some distance between yourself and what you're navigating with?

G: Sure.

KK: So when you brought Cell to the afterlife, you could've put him and yourself several hundred miles away from my planet?

G: Um, sure, I guess.

KK: And how far away from me did you end up?

G: Uhh, twenty feet?

KK: TWENTY KAI-DAMNED FEET, YOU IMBECILE!!!

We never see Goku or Cell put anywhere near that kind of distance between themselves and their teleport navpoints. Even in circumstances that not just warrant such distance but practically beg for it.

So Goku's teleporting around Beers is a solid indicator that he was still sensing that cat.

[Low Tone G]

Fine scenario!

[Hitiro]

Beers tells Vegeta that Ki doesn't work on deities. It's not "Well, somewhere out there is a super genius martial artist that could use Ki to sense me; this genius just won't ever be you," it's "you might figure out how to sense me, Vegeta, it's just not going to be by using Ki." Beers presumably has a lot of experience with this so I don't see it being disputed. Beers says Ki doesn't work on gods. That means it doesn't.

When is this stuff actually said? I'm curious because I never saw this stuff when I was watching the movie.

As for Goku not being sure whether he was a god, that can be attributed to him having previously powered up but without achieving godhood. As far as he knew, he was more successful but not necessarily fully successful.

This is a moot point. If Goku obtained God Ki and he could sense something from Beerus there would be no doubt. I certainly wouldn't question it if I could sense people with God Ki when I couldn't before.

Goku teleporting around can simply be attributed to him using his friends Ki sources as waypoints. We know if he locks onto a Ki source he doesn't need to teleport right next to it. It is more a point of reference than anything.

I would love to be a fly on that wall.

(After the fight with Beers, Goku goes back to King Kai's place.)

King Kai: So, Goku, I was wondering something about how you were fighting with Beers towards the end.

Goku: Yeah, it was really wild and we switched to energy blasts...

KK: I'm talking about after you fell out of the god form.

G: I didn't even know I had. I was too caught up in the fighting.

KK: And you no longer had that Godly Ki, so you couldn't sense Beers.

G: Yeah, but he was right in front of me so that wasn't an issue.

KK: And you were teleporting with those fingers on your forehead. How were you doing that? I was under the impression you had to be able to sense the person to teleport around them.

G: Oh, you're right. I couldn't sense Beers, but my friends were down on the planet's surface, so I just used their energy to navigate.

KK: You mean, you don't have to teleport right on top of someone? You can put some distance between yourself and what you're navigating with?

G: Sure.

KK: So when you brought Cell to the afterlife, you could've put him and yourself several hundred miles away from my planet?

G: Um, sure, I guess.

KK: And how far away from me did you end up?

G: Uhh, twenty feet?

KK: TWENTY KAI-DAMNED FEET, YOU IMBECILE!!!

We never see Goku or Cell put anywhere near that kind of distance between themselves and their teleport navpoints. Even in circumstances that not just warrant such distance but practically beg for it.

So Goku's teleporting around Beers is a solid indicator that he was still sensing that cat.

It would be an incredibly difficult feat to do, to teleport several hundred miles away from his planet. You know that, right? It is fair enough that you are working in a couple hundred feet from a waypoint. But once you start talking hundreds of miles you could end up teleporting yourself into solid matter killing yourself anyway. It is much better to work in feet and metres than miles and have yourself end up teleporting into a mountain killing yourself instantly.

[Tectorman]

Beers tells Vegeta that Ki doesn't work on deities. It's not "Well, somewhere out there is a super genius martial artist that could use Ki to sense me; this genius just won't ever be you," it's "you might figure out how to sense me, Vegeta, it's just not going to be by using Ki." Beers presumably has a lot of experience with this so I don't see it being disputed. Beers says Ki doesn't work on gods. That means it doesn't.

When is this stuff actually said? I'm curious because I never saw this stuff when I was watching the movie.

Vegeta has learned of Beers coming to earth and tries to be on the lookout, failing to find him even after Beers starts talking to him. Beers tells him this statement before Vegeta finally spots Beers lounging under an umbrella.

As for Goku not being sure whether he was a god, that can be attributed to him having previously powered up but without achieving godhood. As far as he knew, he was more successful but not necessarily fully successful.

This is a moot point. If Goku obtained God Ki and he could sense something from Beerus there would be no doubt. I certainly wouldn't question it if I could sense people with God Ki when I couldn't before.

We the audience know that sensing God Ki means being a God but that doesn't mean Goku knows that. He could very well be under the impression that being able to sense Beers means he's more successful than the first try, but not necessarily fully successful. Being a God is new to him. Just like how no one knew right at the beginning that Gotenks's fat form was a bust and not the finished product because they didn't know how it worked (granted, Piccolo knew straightaway because he saw the misalignment).

We never see Goku or Cell put anywhere near that kind of distance between themselves and their teleport navpoints. Even in circumstances that not just warrant such distance but practically beg for it.

So Goku's teleporting around Beers is a solid indicator that he was still sensing that cat.

It would be an incredibly difficult feat to do, to teleport several hundred miles away from his planet. You know that, right? It is fair enough that you are working in a couple hundred feet from a waypoint. But once you start talking hundreds of miles you could end up teleporting yourself into solid matter killing yourself anyway. It is much better to work in feet and metres than miles and have yourself end up teleporting into a mountain killing yourself instantly.

I'm confused. This sounds like you're agreeing with me, with my assertion that using Ki signatures to navigate with Instant Transmission doesn't work at the distances he would've needed to be teleporting around Beers without sensing Beers and instead using his friends' energies or other energies from the earth, hundreds of miles below.

Mountain ranges and other solid matter would not have mattered with the King Kai/exploding Semi-Perfect Cell scenario. Goku has been to King Kai's place before so he knows that at a distance of a few hundred miles in any given direction of King Kai's energy is harmless open sky and cloud and, if he's monumentally unlucky, Snake Way. And considering he's already sacrificing himself to save the earth from Cell, what exactly would be the difference between death-by-phasing-into-Snake-Way and death-by-Cell-explosion?

The fact that he teleports twenty feet away from King Kai,

when teleporting a few hundred or thousand miles away from King Kai might leave King Kai alive

and when there's next to no chance of death-by-teleport-error

and when even that slim chance is in fact acceptable considering he's sacrificing himself anyway,

then it stands to reason that using Instant Transmission to teleport hundreds of miles away from your Ki signature navpoint is not possible.

And if there's nothing else within a hundred feet of Beers, then process of elimination says he was still sensing the cat.

Now, can Goku steer while teleporting? Yes. He can appear in front of someone, behind them, below them, or even on multiple sides of the other person in quick succession.

In non-combat scenarios, with an easier time of concentrating, he can even open up the distance between where he appears and his energy signature navpoint, up to a hundred or so feet.

But "five hundred miles above Piccolo and five feet to the left" and then "five hundred miles above Piccolo and thirteen feet to the right" has never been how Instant Transmission has been said or implied to work.

Do I need to go through the entire manga and point out every instance of someone using Instant Transmission and how far away from someone the teleporter appears? It'd be tedious but I can, if you'd like.

[Doctor.]

Um, what seems to be the problem here?

I was under the impression that Goku clearly kept his Godly Ki after SSJG dissipated, hence why he was able to use Shunkan Ido.

[Low Tone G]

Um, what seems to be the problem here?

I was under the impression that Goku clearly kept his Godly Ki after SSJG dissipated, hence why he was able to use Shunkan Ido.

I think, that's it. I mean Toriyama takes the issue the simpliest way... Goku has absorbed the power, made his own, as still having God power, he is still able to sense Beerus and used Instant Transmssion using Beerus as the needed presence to perform that technique. Not only that, but Goku was sure that Beerus is stronger than him when struggled with Beerus' attack, hence he could very easily sense him, if he stated that.

[Hitiro]

Vegeta has learned of Beers coming to earth and tries to be on the lookout, failing to find him even after Beers starts talking to him. Beers tells him this statement before Vegeta finally spots Beers lounging under an umbrella.

I've seen the scene you are on about. The only thing I see in the sub that Beerus says is "The thing you call Ki doesn't seem to work on a God." And whether or not that is a definite is unsure. Beerus is only making an assumption here. Also don't know if sub is translated very well. But this is definitely the only line in regards to Ki. Because the following line is Beerus questioning Vegeta if he remembered him. Unless the sub I'm watching has something missing.

We the audience know that sensing God Ki means being a God but that doesn't mean Goku knows that. He could very well be under the impression that being able to sense Beers means he's more successful than the first try, but not necessarily fully successful. Being a God is new to him. Just like how no one knew right at the beginning that Gotenks's fat form was a bust and not the finished product because they didn't know how it worked (granted, Piccolo knew straightaway because he saw the misalignment).

We, the audience, are never told that sensing God Ki means being a God. This is something you are making an assumption on. But the fact of the matter is, if Goku could sense Beerus when he couldn't sense Beerus before it would be natural for him to assume he has become a God.

We also never get any sort of sensing quote's from Beerus or Goku. I am still of the firm opinion that these two characters can't sense God Ki.

I'm confused. This sounds like you're agreeing with me, with my assertion that using Ki signatures to navigate with Instant Transmission doesn't work at the distances he would've needed to be teleporting around Beers without sensing Beers and instead using his friends' energies or other energies from the earth, hundreds of miles below.

Mountain ranges and other solid matter would not have mattered with the King Kai/exploding Semi-Perfect Cell scenario. Goku has been to King Kai's place before so he knows that at a distance of a few hundred miles in any given direction of King Kai's energy is harmless open sky and cloud and, if he's monumentally unlucky, Snake Way. And considering he's already sacrificing himself to save the earth from Cell, what exactly would be the difference between death-by-phasing-into-Snake-Way and death-by-Cell-explosion?

Goku is nowhere near as far away from his friends with the teleports he pulls off. So no. I'm not agreeing. This was a last ditch attempt to stop Cell from destroying Earth. So it is highly possible Goku didn't not think that far ahead. By solid matter I was talking about teleporting to Kaio's world and then grabbing Kaio and Gregory then teleporting them away from Cell's Ki signature. If you are talking just teleporting Cell from Earth to several hundred miles away from Kaio. I would also assume it is a way more difficult thing to calculate. The distance between Goku and his friends in Battle of Gods and Beerus is a small amount compared to the distance between Goku and the Kaio. The larger the distance the more precise you need to be in the calculations. Have you ever tried to hit a ball down the table in Snooker? It is much harder with a longer distance because as you increase the distance the room for error increases. Goku trying to teleport several hundred miles away from Kaio could land him next to the check-out station for all we know.

then it stands to reason that using Instant Transmission to teleport hundreds of miles away from your Ki signature navpoint is not possible.

It is probably extremely difficult. And would take time. But Goku is not working with this impossible amount of space. Goku has shown that he can use his teleport to move further away from a target. We don't know the limits of that. Several hundreds of miles, yeah. That is much too huge for him to do. But a couple of miles? I don't think he'd have an issue. At most Goku is looking at 20 miles away from his friends if we were being totally unrealistic about where they were sitting in the air. That is the top height of the Troposphere which his friends definitely weren't.

But "five hundred miles above Piccolo and five feet to the left" and then "five hundred miles above Piccolo and thirteen feet to the right" has never been how Instant Transmission has been said or implied to work.

For Piccolo to be five hundred miles above Goku then Piccolo would have to be in the Thermosphere. That is the region of the atmosphere where space stations and satellites fly about. Piccolo is not that high. Nowhere near.

Do I need to go through the entire manga and point out every instance of someone using Instant Transmission and how far away from someone the teleporter appears? It'd be tedious but I can, if you'd like.

Goku has at least teleported a 30-40 metres(Maybe more, maybe less) when he went to talk to Kaio about where Namek was. Again. We don't know it's actual limit. But I would assume several hundred miles from the Ki source is too much.

[Tectorman]

I've seen the scene you are on about. The only thing I see in the sub that Beerus says is "The thing you call Ki doesn't seem to work on a God." And whether or not that is a definite is unsure. Beerus is only making an assumption here. Also don't know if sub is translated very well. But this is definitely the only line in regards to Ki. Because the following line is Beerus questioning Vegeta if he remembered him. Unless the sub I'm watching has something missing.

Yep, that's the scene I'm talking about. As for how certain Beers is, we'd have to get into how old and how experienced he is. Gods come and go (Whis confirms this by enticing Goku with Beers's job if he ever kicks the bucket), but considering that multiple decades are naps to beings on this level, we can assume a great deal of age and experience. And being the God of Destruction, it's likely he's had to fight countless beings from countless worlds using countless different techniques just to do his job.

So yes, Beers's line might be an assumption, and the movie does have the rules for God-beings be subject to change (for example, rebecoming a SSJG is apparently possible without five other Saiyans holding hands).

On the other hand, as you say, it's the only line regarding the nature of Ki. Another line of dialogue throwing doubt on that assertion does not exist.

This is basically the "Base Goku < Frieza" argument all over again. This line exists in the movie because it's meant to exist in the movie. It conveys the notion that Ki does not work on deities. Nothing contradicts it. So while it might be an assumption on Beers's part, it's 99% likely that it's not.

We, the audience, are never told that sensing God Ki means being a God. This is something you are making an assumption on. But the fact of the matter is, if Goku could sense Beerus when he couldn't sense Beerus before it would be natural for him to assume he has become a God.

No, it wouldn't. He would know "more successful than before". He wouldn't know that it means "fully successful". After all, the current understanding of all involved is that this prophesied SSJG will be a rival to Beers. So Goku can sense Beers and be under the impression that he's more successful in this effort to become a God than the last one, but the burning question hasn't yet been answered. What does Beers tell him? That they will know for certain once they start fighting. Meaning Goku's status of "rival to Beers" is what was in question, not "successful SSJG".

We also never get any sort of sensing quote's from Beerus or Goku. I am still of the firm opinion that these two characters can't sense God Ki.

Well, there is all the teleporting.

Goku is nowhere near as far away from his friends with the teleports he pulls off. So no. I'm not agreeing. This was a last ditch attempt to stop Cell from destroying Earth. So it is highly possible Goku didn't not think that far ahead. By solid matter I was talking about teleporting to Kaio's world and then grabbing Kaio and Gregory then teleporting them away from Cell's Ki signature. If you are talking just teleporting Cell from Earth to several hundred miles away from Kaio. I would also assume it is a way more difficult thing to calculate. The distance between Goku and his friends in Battle of Gods and Beerus is a small amount compared to the distance between Goku and the Kaio. The larger the distance the more precise you need to be in the calculations. Have you ever tried to hit a ball down the table in Snooker? It is much harder with a longer distance because as you increase the distance the room for error increases. Goku trying to teleport several hundred miles away from Kaio could land him next to the check-out station for all we know.

I think I see the confusion.

For this example, A is Goku's pre-teleport location, B is the location of his Ki navpoint, and C is the location of where he comes out of teleport.

When Goku teleports. he must first sense the target. As we saw with his difficulty finding the Namekians, distance affects this. Of course, whether the target is suppressing their Ki or even has a great amount of Ki to be sensed (as in, Bulma doesn't) also affects this.

So the distance from A to B can be a great deal but not infinite. But all it impacts is whether Goku can sense his navpoint. Once he can, the A to B distance doesn't matter.

The distance from B to C, on the other hand, has never been shown to be anything greater than a hundred or so feet. Completely independent of the A to B distance.

It is probably extremely difficult. And would take time. But Goku is not working with this impossible amount of space. Goku has shown that he can use his teleport to move further away from a target. We don't know the limits of that. Several hundreds of miles, yeah. That is much too huge for him to do. But a couple of miles? I don't think he'd have an issue. At most Goku is looking at 20 miles away from his friends if we were being totally unrealistic about where they were sitting in the air. That is the top height of the Troposphere which his friends definitely weren't.

It looked like his friends were around the height or twice the height of the Golden Gate Bridge. The last bit of Goku's fight with Beers looked like the height of the Hubble telescope.

But even if it were something as small as 20 miles, that's still a drastically humongous increase over the hundreds of feet he's been shown to do. And that's before you consider that his in-combat teleports have even less distance.

]For Piccolo to be five hundred miles above Goku then Piccolo would have to be in the Thermosphere. That is the region of the atmosphere where space stations and satellites fly about. Piccolo is not that high. Nowhere near.

No, I'm saying that Piccolo is not seeing the curvature of the earth and Goku is. He's that high, not his friends.

Goku has at least teleported a 30-40 metres(Maybe more, maybe less) when he went to talk to Kaio about where Namek was. Again. We don't know it's actual limit. But I would assume several hundred miles from the Ki source is too much.

So would I. Hence my dispute of your dispute that Goku's teleporting around Beers isn't proof that he can sense Beers.

Goku's in-combat (or otherwise high-stress teleports):

Escaping Cell's Kamehameha and kicking him in the back: 1 meter

Getting under Cell's guard and hitting him with a Kamehameha of his own: < 1 meter

Dodging Kid Buu's blast and hitting him with a roundhouse: 1 meter

He's shown more distance from B to C out of combat, though nothing in the hundreds of miles or even twenty miles range. But his greatest B to C distances in-combat that I've ever seen are the teleports he does around Beers both in the cave and in very low Earth orbit.

Nothing resembling even a single mile. If there was nothing else up there with Beers and Goku, then Goku's navpoint was Beers. So he could sense him. And since Ki doesn't work on deities, Goku must've been using something else (magic, Godly sight, or God Ki). My money's on the God Ki.

[Low Tone G]

I like this dispute about Goku to sense Beerus or not, but can we talk about Goku's God potential? The topic is all about that without other Saiyans, Goku could ever become a God or not...(So not that he already absorbed that gained power, but rahter without any help at all).

[Tectorman]

I like this dispute about Goku to sense Beerus or not, but can we talk about Goku's God potential? The topic is all about that without other Saiyans, Goku could ever become a God or not...(So not that he already absorbed that gained power, but rahter without any help at all).

Where is the source of the interview that says that Goku was approaching the upper limit of how much he'd be able to improve, until he got God Mode which opened his potential up anew? I've seen this notion around, but where does it come from?

To me, that's the only real indication of what officially would have happened had BoG not taken place, if this notion is in fact official. Goku would train and train and train and train some more and stop seeing general improvements in his abilities. He might learn new techniques, such as the Dragon Fist if he doesn't already know it, or the ability to pack 10 Kamehamehas into a single blast and use them like a delayed reaction strike.

But he wouldn't get stronger. Which he would not be satisfied with at all, and would maybe set him on a journey to find a master out there, which might lead him in the right direction to figuring out how to break past his own upper limits, which might include a self-activated God Mode.

A whole bunch of maybes, is really all we can say. God Mode has a specific activation, but we saw Goku break the rules with it at the end of the movie. Plus, just in general, this is Goku we're talking about. Even if there were official word that he had an upper limit, he'd still try to break past it.

[Hitiro]

Yep, that's the scene I'm talking about. As for how certain Beers is, we'd have to get into how old and how experienced he is. Gods come and go (Whis confirms this by enticing Goku with Beers's job if he ever kicks the bucket), but considering that multiple decades are naps to beings on this level, we can assume a great deal of age and experience. And being the God of Destruction, it's likely he's had to fight countless beings from countless worlds using countless different techniques just to do his job.

I don't think you understand. Beerus says this line with an uncertainty. What he says is that it "doesn't seem" to work on a God. As opposed to it doesn't. Now you can say that Beerus has experienced a lot in his life time. But has he dealt with other beings that have sensing abilities other than the humans? Because from what I understand Beerus has met the Saiyan's, Freeza and his henchmen but they all had no ability to sense. Sensing Ki on Earth is a recent addition too. I don't believe there are any Namekian's with the ability to sense Ki apart from Piccolo, or I don't recall a scene showing it at least.

We know that the Kaio can sense Beerus and Whis. Whether they are using a Ki based sensing technique or not is unclear. You would think Kaio has God Ki too but Goku could teleport to him just fine. Unless he has a mixture of God Ki and regular Ki. But the only facts we genuinely know is that he definitely has regular Ki and Beerus is unsure whether Ki based sensing can pick up him. Does this mean Kaio has a way to sense Beerus with regular Ki? Possibly. Does it mean he could have God Ki as well that helped in this? Possibly. It can fall either way here.

This is basically the "Base Goku < Freeza" argument all over again. This line exists in the movie because it's meant to exist in the movie. It conveys the notion that Ki does not work on deities. Nothing contradicts it. So while it might be an assumption on Beers's part, it's 99% likely that it's not.

But that line in the movie is a fact. Nothing is in contention here. We know that Goku, at that moment, was not strong enough to defeat Freeza. Whether you consider him to be suppressed or at full power is irrelevant. That line talks about Goku not being strong enough to beat Freeza given the circumstance of the scene.

The line about how you can't seemingly sense God Ki with regular Ki is an assumption though. You can't say it's 99% likely that Beerus is not making an assumption when it says in the actual line that he has some doubt on whether it is possible or not. That is what the word "seem" is. For example. There is a difference between:

Beerus seems to be stronger than Goku.

and

Beerus is stronger than Goku.

The latter is a clear expression of a fact. The former is only an assumption.

No, it wouldn't. He would know "more successful than before". He wouldn't know that it means "fully successful". After all, the current understanding of all involved is that this prophesied SSJG will be a rival to Beers. So Goku can sense Beers and be under the impression that he's more successful in this effort to become a God than the last one, but the burning question hasn't yet been answered. What does Beers tell him? That they will know for certain once they start fighting. Meaning Goku's status of "rival to Beers" is what was in question, not "successful SSJG".

I'm sorry. But if you are given any indication of change such as being able to sense God Ki then I would honestly believe that I achieved it. Goku seemed to believe that the power increase prior to the transformation was SSJGod without any evidence. And the second time around if he could legitimately sense Beerus and Whis then why would he not believe the transformation worked this time?

It also doesn't explain why Beerus couldn't distinguish whether Goku achieved SSJGod or not. If he has God Ki then he must have SSJGod. We know that the other transformations give off a Ki signature that allows you to tell whether someone is fighting in base form or not. Gohan says it back when Mirai Trunks shows up and deals with Freeza. He specifically says that it must be his father because the Ki was the same as his fathers back then.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

So I am still of the belief that Beerus couldn't sense God Ki either.

The only character who has seemed to been able to sense God Ki is Kaio and possibly Whis(But the Whis but is just my own belief. He was the only one to talk in a way where he knew what was going on.)

Well, there is all the teleporting.

Again. It's never explicitly said about the maximum feats of this ability. We can't say for sure it isn't a possibility to use Piccolo or one of his other friends to teleport.

I think I see the confusion.

For this example, A is Goku's pre-teleport location, B is the location of his Ki navpoint, and C is the location of where he comes out of teleport.

When Goku teleports. he must first sense the target. As we saw with his difficulty finding the Namekians, distance affects this. Of course, whether the target is suppressing their Ki or even has a great amount of Ki to be sensed (as in, Bulma doesn't) also affects this.

So the distance from A to B can be a great deal but not infinite. But all it impacts is whether Goku can sense his navpoint. Once he can, the A to B distance doesn't matter.

The distance from B to C, on the other hand, has never been shown to be anything greater than a hundred or so feet. Completely independent of the A to B distance.

Well there is no confusion. We've never seen Goku needing to use this ability to its maximum potential before. We can't say that it isn't possible.

It looked like his friends were around the height or twice the height of the Golden Gate Bridge. The last bit of Goku's fight with Beers looked like the height of the Hubble telescope.

But even if it were something as small as 20 miles, that's still a drastically humongous increase over the hundreds of feet he's been shown to do. And that's before you consider that his in-combat teleports have even less distance.

Goku has never needed to demonstrate such a feat in the manga or in the movies though. So we can only make an assumption on the abilities limits. When does Goku ever fight an opponent in which he can't sense so he has to teleport using other Ki sources as a reference point? Never.

No, I'm saying that Piccolo is not seeing the curvature of the earth and Goku is. He's that high, not his friends.

I forgot he used some teleports in that scene. I was talking about him being underground when the SSJGod ran out.

So would I. Hence my dispute of your dispute that Goku's teleporting around Beers isn't proof that he can sense Beers.

I meant to say Goku teleporting around from several hundred miles from the Ki source isn't too much. Unless we're talking about A to B being incredibly large distance, like to Namek, and then A to C around an enemy that can't be sensed.

Goku's in-combat (or otherwise high-stress teleports):

Escaping Cell's Kamehameha and kicking him in the back: 1 meter

Getting under Cell's guard and hitting him with a Kamehameha of his own: < 1 meter

Dodging Kid Buu's blast and hitting him with a roundhouse: 1 meter

He's shown more distance from B to C out of combat, though nothing in the hundreds of miles or even twenty miles range. But his greatest B to C distances in-combat that I've ever seen are the teleports he does around Beers both in the cave and in very low Earth orbit.

Nothing resembling even a single mile. If there was nothing else up there with Beers and Goku, then Goku's navpoint was Beers. So he could sense him. And since Ki doesn't work on deities, Goku must've been using something else (magic, Godly sight, or God Ki). My money's on the God Ki.

All of the ones you just mentioned were offensive teleports. That's why they didn't have much range to them. How would Goku be able to roundhouse Pure Boo from 40 metres away unless he was a Namekian who could stretch his limbs? The best point of attack for a Kamehameha is right next to your opponent too. Cell had proven he is faster than Goku. But Ki beams and blasts are always faster than the people using them and their opponents. Look at Raditz barely dodging Piccolo's Makankosappo. The only reason he could was because distance allows for the slower object to avoid. If a beam has 20 metres to travel and you need 2 metres to dodge it then you can dodge it by going a fraction of the beams speed. If we say the beams speed was the speed of light then you would need just over a tenth of the speed of light to avoid the blast.

Again. I don't see how Goku couldn't be using his friends as "navpoints" to fight Beerus in the upper atmosphere.

[Tectorman]

I don't think you understand. Beerus says this line with an uncertainty. What he says is that it "doesn't seem" to work on a God. As opposed to it doesn't. Now you can say that Beerus has experienced a lot in his life time. But has he dealt with other beings that have sensing abilities other than the humans? Because from what I understand Beerus has met the Saiyan's, Freeza and his henchmen but they all had no ability to sense. Sensing Ki on Earth is a recent addition too. I don't believe there are any Namekian's with the ability to sense Ki apart from Piccolo, or I don't recall a scene showing it at least.

The subtitle line is that it doesn't look like Ki works on deities. Not "the ability to sense Ki", not "Ki blasts", not "Ki telepathy". The line is a blanket denial of all Ki affecting a deity. And it does say "looks like".

So one of two things is happening. 1) He doesn't just not know whether ki-sensing would work on a deity but whether ki-anything would work on a deity. He's destroyed countless worlds and probably had to fight a whole bunch of warriors who didn't want that to happen, and his encounter with Vegeta's attempts to find him was his first encounter with Ki as a power source in his life. In this universe where Ki has been fundamental to everything alive and even dead, Beers has never heard of Ki before now.

(Remember, he doesn't say that it looks like Ki-sensing doesn't work on deities, but the entire realm of Ki itself. If this is a question and Beers has the slightest doubts, it's not about Ki's usefulness in tracking a deity but it's ability to do anything at all to a deity.)

Or 2), he has encountered Ki-users before (given the nature of this universe and his profession, how could he not?), and given his experience with all other manner of Ki uses, up to and probably including Ki sensing, he knows it doesn't work. Not the slightest aspect. And his phrasing of "it looks like" is nothing more than him being polite.

We know that the Kaio can sense Beerus and Whis. Whether they are using a Ki based sensing technique or not is unclear. You would think Kaio has God Ki too but Goku could teleport to him just fine. Unless he has a mixture of God Ki and regular Ki. But the only facts we genuinely know is that he definitely has regular Ki and Beerus is unsure whether Ki based sensing can pick up him. Does this mean Kaio has a way to sense Beerus with regular Ki? Possibly. Does it mean he could have God Ki as well that helped in this? Possibly. It can fall either way here.

I chalk it up to what I call Godly Sight, the perception that a member of the Celestial order has over what they're in charge of. Kami and later Dende was/is the guardian of the Earth, so they can look down from the Lookout and see what's going on. Arguably, Piccolo has it and was even able to use it to follow Goku's fight in the caverns (the other Z Fighters wonder what's going on, but he is able to tell them.

Given that, it's not a stretch to extend the Kaioshins' Godly Sight to the borders of their domain (i.e., the known Universe), which would include Beers (and in the case, of the Elder Kai, young pretty women).

Speculation, but it is precedent for a non-Ki manner by which the Kaioshins and Piccolo could sense Beers.

But that line in the movie is a fact. Nothing is in contention here. We know that Goku, at that moment, was not strong enough to defeat Freeza. Whether you consider him to be suppressed or at full power is irrelevant. That line talks about Goku not being strong enough to beat Freeza given the circumstance of the scene.

The line about how you can't seemingly sense God Ki with regular Ki is an assumption though. You can't say it's 99% likely that Beerus is not making an assumption when it says in the actual line that he has some doubt on whether it is possible or not. That is what the word "seem" is. For example. There is a difference between:

Beerus seems to be stronger than Goku.

and

Beerus is stronger than Goku.

The latter is a clear expression of a fact. The former is only an assumption.

But the line isn't talking about Ki sensing but rather the entire power source. So he's either unsure about an energy source that can't be anything but universe-wide or his "doubt" is anything but.

Does the following make any sense to you?

Beers: "I've destroyed countless worlds, fought many opponents, and found only one who can best me. Throughout this universe have been many fighters, all using various techniques of Ki to try and defend their planets. And after all this time, I'm still just guessing about whether Ki even works on me."

(Universe-wide? Considering Goku has spent years in the afterlife meeting fighters from all over and we never hear a comment about such-and-such that doesn't have Ki until this movie, yes.)

I'm sorry. But if you are given any indication of change such as being able to sense God Ki then I would honestly believe that I achieved it. Goku seemed to believe that the power increase prior to the transformation was SSJGod without any evidence. And the second time around if he could legitimately sense Beerus and Whis then why would he not believe the transformation worked this time?

And if I had failed the first time, I'd want a second opinion even if I noticed an extra capacity that wasn't there the first time.

You said it yourself. Goku powered up the first time, noticed he'd gotten way more powerful, and thought that was the real deal. The second time, he gets way more powerful and can now sense Beers. But is there a third thing he's supposed to be getting out of this? He doesn't know. Easier just to ask.

It also doesn't explain why Beerus couldn't distinguish whether Goku achieved SSJGod or not. If he has God Ki then he must have SSJGod. We know that the other transformations give off a Ki signature that allows you to tell whether someone is fighting in base form or not. Gohan says it back when Mirai Trunks shows up and deals with Freeza. He specifically says that it must be his father because the Ki was the same as his fathers back then.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

So I am still of the belief that Beerus couldn't sense God Ki either.

The only character who has seemed to been able to sense God Ki is Kaio and possibly Whis(But the Whis but is just my own belief. He was the only one to talk in a way where he knew what was going on.)

I'm actually not fussed about whether Beers can sense God Ki. He could very well be like Vegeta was, very powerful and able to fight by senses alone, without sensing God Ki.

Well there is no confusion. We've never seen Goku needing to use this ability to its maximum potential before. We can't say that it isn't possible.

KING KAI

IS DEAD

BECAUSE GOKU

TELEPORTED THE EXPLODING SEMI-PERFECT CELL

TO WITHIN

TWENTY

KAI-DAMNED

FEET

OF HIM!

Get it?

This represents the exact example you're looking for. A circumstance where Goku needs to go somewhere else, using someone there as a navpoint to get there, but then also needs to be as far away from said navpoint as he can possibly be. If Goku were capable of that kind of B to C distance, wouldn't he have done something like split the difference between King Kai's Ki and King Yamma's Ki and let Cell explode harmlessly over the middle of Snake Way? Or do anything to make sure that he wasn't letting Cell kill any more people?

Goku has never needed to demonstrate such a feat in the manga or in the movies though. So we can only make an assumption on the abilities limits. When does Goku ever fight an opponent in which he can't sense so he has to teleport using other Ki sources as a reference point? Never.

The two outliers for this are his fight against Super 17 in GT, and the awesome yet contradictory fight with Metal Cooler. These are the only times when the whole "you think of a person, not a place" description are ignored.

So you're right. We've never seen him faced with an opponent that he couldn't sense so he had to teleport using other references. But if said references are not close enough to the battle, then he wouldn't be able to use them tactically anyway.

Example: his fight vs 19. At the very beginning, he was doing little more than sweating from the heart virus and was all over 19. It wasn't until after he noticed Goku's SSJ not being as strong as it should have been AND that Goku was rushing the fight that Piccolo observed that Goku wasn't at full capacity, even though he was fighting as hard as he could. So Goku could've still used Instant Transmission using his friends (mere hundreds of feet away) as navpoints to speed blitz 19, which, given his desire to finish the fight quickly, he would've been doing.

He didn't. Not when the virus was attacking in earnest, not at the fight's beginning when its effects were minimal. Not when he had every need to pull out every advantage he could get. Observe that 19 absorbs energy through his palms and then teleport behind him, away from the palms, and hit him with a blast there. Goku doesn't do this. I think it's telling that he doesn't.

I forgot he used some teleports in that scene. I was talking about him being underground when the SSJGod ran out.

I know. But he did. Way up where the only people he could be using as navpoints would be Sandra Bullock and George Clooney.

I meant to say Goku teleporting around from several hundred miles from the Ki source isn't too much. Unless we're talking about A to B being incredibly large distance, like to Namek, and then A to C around an enemy that can't be sensed.

What A to C? There is no A to C. A to B is one of the factors in determining whether he can sense the target. But once he can, the only distance that matters for the teleport is B to C.

Again. I don't see how Goku couldn't be using his friends as "navpoints" to fight Beerus in the upper atmosphere.

Because if Goku could sense his friends' location and teleport in reference to that, then he could've taken the Exploding Semi-Perfect Cell to (the distance between his friends and where he was fighting Beers, looks like a few hundred miles) away from King Kai.

Heck, he fought his universe's chief architect of destruction in an urban population center and the only damage I remember is the crater he made on that first punch against Beers when they start out at Capsule Corp (I'm not talking about the greater destruction we see when the fight goes to the woods, then the rocky area, then the caverns). Even when his friends were already dead, he still asked Vegeta to fight somewhere else. This series is famous for the gratuitous destruction in its fights, but Goku actually tries to be careful.

Goku would not have let Cell explode right on top of King Kai if he could help it. Hence, he couldn't. The B to C distance necessary for him to be teleporting in low orbit with his friends skirting the tops of the trees in the nearby forest just never occurs in this series, even when it needed to.