Tien vs C-18/17

[Artyom]

Hey lads,

I've just joined the community so this is my first post/topic. Glad to be here and hope to have some good debates!

One of my favourite characters is definitely Tien-shinhan and two things have made me begin to wonder wether or not he was actually a viable fighter in the DBZ universe for longer than I've usually thought.
Basically what I mean is, he's shown to be viable to an extent in the saiyan saga as his strength far exceeds the saibmen, so while he wasn't a top tier fighter he was still viable. We don't see him in action again (except for filler) until the android/cell arc.

1. His kikoho (correct term?) fended off semi-perfect cell
2. He showed some resistance to the cell jrs (even if they weren't serious)

Anyway this gets me to 17/18, I know 17 basically owned Tien pretty quick so let's set one rule.
1. Tien is fully aware of their power and knows a physical fight is futile so perhaps after a clever use of solar flare he manages to land a kikoho right on either 18/17 and he decideds to keep firing to exhaustion, in what kind of shape so you think either of the droids would be in after that assault?

I think it probably wouldn't kill them but would probably beat them down so bad that any of the ssj's pre-rosat would be able to finish them off easily.

[Cetra]

Seeing how useless it was against Cell powerwise it probably would not have been to great. Maybe for distraction so the Super Saiyajin could finish them off.

[dbgtFO]

They should be completely disintegrated.
If it does that to Cell, then it should have far greater effects against those two, who were ants in comparison.

[RandomGuy96]

He outright said he couldn't do anything to the androids or lower forms of Cell. Hitting Semi-Cell with the Kikoho doesn't mean anything. He just pushed him while doing zero damage. Base Trunks launched Cell with a similar shockwave attack, and 50% Freeza launched SS Goku, and those weren't even named techniques. I don't see the Kikoho even being able to kill the base Saiyans. So suffice to say, it would just be air to the androids.

[hleV]

He wouldn't harm Kuririn.

[FoolsGil]

17 and 18 would have been obliterated, and I have a formula of sorts for that:

The Kikoho vs Cell form 2- Cell suffered no damage, but unlike any other attack that has been tanked in the series, Cell was in fact pushed and held in place. That's some power right there. Then there is the ROSAT Saiyan. An Ascended Saiyan could do the same without batting an eyelash effectively playing with Cell as long as he wanted.

Tenshinhan's life draining Kikoho = Ascended Saiyan's (yawning at that) standard ki blast > Cell form 2, no damage incurred, but halted and kept from escape.

Is there anyone who would say that a basic blast from Trunks post ROSAT couldn't kill 17 or 18 in one shot? Course not. And what would have been a game for one man would have been a struggle against life and death for another. Tenshinhan can do the same blast, effectively drain his life, but it would be just as strong as Trunks'; If Tenshinhan's Kikoho connects, 17 or 18 would be dust in the wind.


In conclusion, Tenshinhan is a poor man's Super Saiyan...Calling him a poor man's Piccolo is too much praise.

[RandomGuy96]

If Tenshinhan's Kikoho connects, 17 or 18 would be dust in the wind.

That must be why he outright said he couldn't do anything to them, and why he never used it.

[FoolsGil]

If Tenshinhan's Kikoho connects, 17 or 18 would be dust in the wind.

That must be why he outright said he couldn't do anything to them, and why he never used it.

Exactly. Obviously. "p


Don't act like a casual DBZ viewer. You know and I know Toryama wrote at the seat of his pants and he wrote that delightful line Tenshinhan said long before he wrote himself into a corner and NEEDED 18 to get away from Cell after he absorbed 17.

[dbgtFO]

If Tenshinhan's Kikoho connects, 17 or 18 would be dust in the wind.

That must be why he outright said he couldn't do anything to them, and why he never used it.

Exactly. Obviously. "p


Don't act like a casual DBZ viewer. You know and I know Toryama wrote at the seat of his pants and he wrote that delightful line Tenshinhan said long before he wrote himself into a corner and NEEDED 18 to get away from Cell after he absorbed 17.

Yup, pretty much.

I just look at it like that, same with Goku using a kiai against Butta and Jheese, 70% Freeza against SS Goku and Future Trunks against Future Cell.
It seems absurd, that it should be some extra effect, that somehow manages to push anyone regarless of the gap in power, so I don't believe that.

[Hitiro]

That must be why he outright said he couldn't do anything to them, and why he never used it.

Well, Tenshinhan never actually says he couldn't do anything to the androids. The only one who suggests that is Piccolo. But Piccolo also doesn't know about the Shin-Kikoho. Tenshinhan does comment on him not being able to do anything against Cell though.

Not saying he could do something to them. But we never actually get a comment from him stating he couldn't.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

When Trunks, Krillin and Tien are flying to Goku's house after fighting the Androids, Tien says he'll rejoin everyone after checking on Chaozu even though he's useless. Tien's pretty much admitting he can't do anything useful against the Androids.

[Hitiro]

When Trunks, Krillin and Tenshinhan are flying to Goku's house after fighting the Androids, Tenshinhan says he'll rejoin everyone after checking on Chaozu even though he's useless.

I was looking at the quote's in Herms strength checker. Didn't see that line. Are you sure he says it?

[RandomGuy96]

If Tenshinhan's Kikoho connects, 17 or 18 would be dust in the wind.

That must be why he outright said he couldn't do anything to them, and why he never used it.

Exactly. Obviously. "p


Don't act like a casual DBZ viewer. You know and I know Toryama wrote at the seat of his pants and he wrote that delightful line Tenshinhan said long before he wrote himself into a corner and NEEDED 18 to get away from Cell after he absorbed 17.

The Shin Kikoho scene happened very soon after that statement, and wasn't actually necessary. Maybe, GASP, the move just isn't that strong, and the plot doesn't have to collapse in on itself just to wank Tenshinhan. It just pushed Cell, which is not a huge accomplishment unless you want to argue that 50-70% Freeza's kiai is on SS Goku's level just because it pushed him. I mean come on, this shitty move couldn't even kill Nappa.

Not saying he could do something to them. But we never actually get a comment from him stating he couldn't.

We do, while Cell, 17, and Piccolo are fighting. Also, before that, at Roshi's house.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

When Trunks, Krillin and Tenshinhan are flying to Goku's house after fighting the Androids, Tenshinhan says he'll rejoin everyone after checking on Chaozu even though he's useless.

I was looking at the quote's in Herms strength checker. Didn't see that line. Are you sure he says it?

I'm guessing it's not there because it's more of a general quote than a strength related quote. Not sure what the original line says, but here's the English translation of it:

Tien: "Hey. I'm going to go check in with Chaozu. I know he's worried. I'll be back before things turn bad again. Though I don't think I'll be of any use."

[Hitiro]

We do, while Cell, 17, and Piccolo are fighting. Also, before that, at Roshi's house.

Chapter: 370 (DBZ 176), P11.6
Context: as first form Cell beats up on No.17 and Piccolo
Tenshinhan: “Our worlds are too different…Extremely so…There’s nothing I can do…”

I assumed this quote was in regards to helping them fend off Cell. So I don't know whether you consider this as him talking about them all or just Cell.

And before that, I don't see any quote in Herms' Strength Checker regarding Roshi's house. Whether he forgot to include it or it just isn't in the original manga I am unsure of.

I'm guessing it's not there because it's more of a general quote than a strength related quote. Not sure what the original line says, but here's the English translation of it:

Tenshinhan: "Hey. I'm going to go check in with Chaozu. I know he's worried. I'll be back before things turn bad again. Though I don't think I'll be of any use."

I guess? But Yamcha also says something general like he is the least useful one there. Yet that is in the Strength Checker? I don't know honestly.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P4.3
Context: offering to take Goku back home
Yamcha: “Pitiful as it may be, it looks like I’m the least useful one here…”

[RandomGuy96]

We do, while Cell, 17, and Piccolo are fighting. Also, before that, at Roshi's house.

Chapter: 370 (DBZ 176), P11.6
Context: as first form Cell beats up on No.17 and Piccolo
Tenshinhan: “Our worlds are too different…Extremely so…There’s nothing I can do…”

I assumed this quote was in regards to helping them fend off Cell. So I don't know whether you consider this as him talking about them all or just Cell.

And before that, I don't see any quote in Herms' Strength Checker regarding Roshi's house. Whether he forgot to include it or it just isn't in the original manga I am unsure of.

I'm guessing it's not there because it's more of a general quote than a strength related quote. Not sure what the original line says, but here's the English translation of it:

Tenshinhan: "Hey. I'm going to go check in with Chaozu. I know he's worried. I'll be back before things turn bad again. Though I don't think I'll be of any use."

I guess? But Yamcha also says something general like he is the least useful one there. Yet that is in the Strength Checker? I don't know honestly.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P4.3
Context: offering to take Goku back home
Yamcha: “Pitiful as it may be, it looks like I’m the least useful one here…”

He knows Cell wants to absorb the androids, so destroying them to stop him would qualify as "something he can do". This, along with Turlast's quote, should prove that Ten wasn't just hiding that he could actually one-shot all the villains for the lolz.

[Hitiro]

He knows Cell wants to absorb the androids, so destroying them to stop him would qualify as "something he can do". This, along with Turlast's quote, should prove that Ten wasn't just hiding that he could actually one-shot all the villains for the lolz.

Well. Does holding back Cell not qualify as "something he can do"? So when he said this quote. There was something he could do.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I remember when someone (this was a looooong time ago) suggested that Tien took the time to develop the Neo Kikoho to make up for his pathetic showing against the Androids. But of course, it's kinda funny when you think about it now...

[Galan007]

Semi-Perfect Cell>>Imperfect Cell>>Piccolo~#17>#18. In fact, Imperfect Cell no-sold Piccolo's all-out Masenko--it literally did nothing at all. Conversely, Tien's Kikoho beams may not have caused any lasting damage, but they were sufficient to overpower(and thus contain) Semi-Perfect Cell for an extended period of time... Which is incredible, to say the least.

So IF Tien were able to launch a Kikoho at #17 or #18, they'd be vaporized.

[RandomGuy96]

Conversely, Tenshinhan's Kikoho beams may not have caused any lasting damage, but they were sufficient to overpower(and thus contain) Semi-Perfect Cell for an extended period of time... Which is incredible, to say the least.

Not really. It doesn't require any great power to just push someone for about ten seconds. It's just air. 70% Freeza's kiai pushed Super Saiyan Goku, Kaioshin's kiai pushed Majin Buu, heck, even base Trunks' kiai pushed Cell.

So IF Tenshinhan were able to launch a Kikoho at #17 or #18, they'd be vaporized.

Someone should tell Tenshinhan that, as he outright said he couldn't do anything to the androids, and never even tried to use it against them.