Tien vs C-18/17

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Galan007
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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Galan007 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:14 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Not really. It doesn't require any great power to just push someone for about ten seconds.
As I mentioned: Piccolo launched an all-out Masenko at Imperfect Cell, and it failed to so much as make Cell flinch--let alone overpower and move him back against his will. The same attack, if successfully delivered against #17, logically would have damaged him significantly, given that he and Piccolo were equals. Tien's Kikoho, on the other hand, had a very pronounced [negative] effect on a MUCH more powerful iteration of Cell(Semi-Perfect.) ie. Tien's Kikoho>>>Piccolo's Masenko.

So yeah, a Kikoho barrage would definitely end the Androids, imo.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Someone should tell Tenshinhan that, as he outright said he couldn't do anything to the androids, and never even tried to use it against them.
Plot/Character-Induced-Stupidity. It happens ALL THE TIME throughout every form of fictional media.

It would have made for a rather anti-climactic saga, if Tien would've simply popped-in and atomized #17 & #18 before Cell ever had a chance to absorb them...

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:20 pm

As I mentioned: Piccolo launched an all-out Masenko at Imperfect Cell, and it failed to so much as make Cell flinch--let alone overpower and move him back against his will. The same attack, if successfully delivered against #17, logically would have damaged him significantly, given that he and Piccolo were equals. Tenshinhan's Kikoho, on the other hand, had a very pronounced [negative] effect on a MUCH more powerful iteration of Cell(Semi-Perfect.) ie. Tenshinhan's Kikoho>>>Piccolo's Masenko.
It did zero damage. Again, pushing isn't and never has been a big deal. Anyone can push anyone, especially if they catch them off guard. This isn't a feat of power.
So yeah, a Kikoho barrage would definitely end the Androids, imo.
Nope. Ten said he couldn't do anything.
Plot/Character-Induced-Stupidity. It happens ALL THE TIME throughout every form of fictional media.
Or maybe it just wasn't strong enough. Honestly, I never understood this need to smash the story with a sledgehammer just to wank Tenshinhan.
It would have made for a rather anti-climactic saga, if Tenshinhan would've simply popped-in and atomized #17 & #18 before Cell ever had a chance to absorb them...
Yeah, that's why Toriyama never gave him the capability to do that.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:28 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: The Shin Kikoho scene happened very soon after that statement, and wasn't actually necessary. Maybe, GASP, the move just isn't that strong, and the plot doesn't have to collapse in on itself just to wank Tenshinhan. It just pushed Cell, which is not a huge accomplishment unless you want to argue that 50-70% Freeza's kiai is on SS Goku's level just because it pushed him. I mean come on, this shitty move couldn't even kill Nappa.
No, as flimsy as Dragonball plot is already, the plot would not collapse on itself for the following reasons:

1) Tenshinhan is using his own life force to stop Cell. So much energy is being used and-

2) All it could do is hold Cell back. Is Cell injured? No. And the biggest reasons-

3) He can't do it forever! Tenshinhan may have lasted ten minutes if that! Compared to a ROSAT Saiyan who, I don't know, an hour? Maybe 3 before they get tired?

Those three reasons alone point out every thing that prevents Tenshinhan from being an actual game changer, from actually crumbling the story from within itself. A prime example of the plot collapsing on itself? Krillin vs Imperfect Cell. Best filler moment, but downright impossible in the confines of Dragonball.

And second, when has a weaker character ever did more to a stronger character (outside of the Kienzan) besides scuff their bodies? How many times has the ultimate blast been sent and did nothing but pick up dust? That's like a third of the series right there, nothing but beam blast TANKS and everyone flabbergasted that the attack did nothing. But Tenshinhan? He pushed Cell into a crater, and he kept him there! If it was trash or worthless, Cell would have tanked it! He would have have done any number of things including go through the blasts effortlessly and kill Tenshinhan! That did not happen, so damn the Shin Kikoho must have been something, and if it had that ability on Cell, it's damn obvious that more would have happened to the Androids if they were hit with the blast! Someone go get some towels for the plot, that Tenshinhan wank happened and no Saiyan was there to stop it!
Tenshinhan: "Hey. I'm going to go check in with Chaozu. I know he's worried. I'll be back before things turn bad again. Though I don't think I'll be of any use."
Yeah, when I'm not resolute in sacrificing myself in an attempt to save the world from utter destruction, and I just got beat up the last time I went out, I may also have problems with confidence and self esteem. But when it's time to sh*t or get off the pot, worries about my last performance is the last thing on the mind.

This is an example of Tenshinhan being human, and he had no guarantees that he had the power to kill the Androids by blasting them, instead of you know, trying to save Piccolo and Trunks and foolishly jumped in. He sure as heck wouldn't have known he could've stopped Cell, at least until he actually tried. Or you know, Deus ex machina because of Toryama and his writing style
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I remember when someone (this was a looooong time ago) suggested that Tenshinhan took the time to develop the Neo Kikoho to make up for his pathetic showing against the Androids. But of course, it's kinda funny when you think about it now... :lol:
That is also a wonderful alternative.
Last edited by FoolsGil on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Galan007 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:30 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
As I mentioned: Piccolo launched an all-out Masenko at Imperfect Cell, and it failed to so much as make Cell flinch--let alone overpower and move him back against his will. The same attack, if successfully delivered against #17, logically would have damaged him significantly, given that he and Piccolo were equals. Tenshinhan's Kikoho, on the other hand, had a very pronounced [negative] effect on a MUCH more powerful iteration of Cell(Semi-Perfect.) ie. Tenshinhan's Kikoho>>>Piccolo's Masenko.
It did zero damage. Again, pushing isn't and never has been a big deal. Anyone can push anyone, especially if they catch them off guard. This isn't a feat of power.
So yeah, a Kikoho barrage would definitely end the Androids, imo.
Nope. Ten said he couldn't do anything.
Plot/Character-Induced-Stupidity. It happens ALL THE TIME throughout every form of fictional media.
Or maybe it just wasn't strong enough. Honestly, I never understood this need to smash the story with a sledgehammer just to wank Tenshinhan.
It would have made for a rather anti-climactic saga, if Tenshinhan would've simply popped-in and atomized #17 & #18 before Cell ever had a chance to absorb them...
Yeah, that's why Toriyama never gave him the capability to do that.
It overpowered Semi-Perfect Cell and kept him at bay for a good duration of time, so yes, it is 'a feat of power'. It also did FAR more to Semi-Pefect Cell than Piccolo's Masenko did to Imperfect Cell. Again: Kikoho>Masenko.

And considering Piccolo=#17, said Masenko logically would have been able to harm #17. So if a weaker attack could have harmed #17, should I believe that he could inextricably tank a more powerful attack? Lol, no.

Mentioning Tien's feat EXACTLY as it was portrayed in the manga=/='wanking'. Stop projecting.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:43 pm

It overpowered Semi-Perfect Cell and kept him at bay for a good duration of time, so yes, it is 'a feat of power'. It also did FAR more to Semi-Pefect Cell than Piccolo's Masenko did to Imperfect Cell. Again: Kikoho>Masenko.
Again, nope. It did zero damage, it just pushed him around for ten seconds. It was literally air to Cell. As numerous examples show, simply pushing someone with a shockwave (or even a physical blow) doesn't mean shit. Again, this shitty technique couldn't even kill Nappa or Daimao when Tenshinhan wasn't many times weaker than them. Unless he miraculously improved it be over a thousand times more potent, and then didn't share it with anyone else while lying about its capabilities just to be a dick, it doesn't have the power to do anything to Cell except push him back.
And considering Piccolo=#17, said Masenko logically would have been able to harm #17. So if a weaker attack could have harmed #17, should I believe that he could inextricably tank a more powerful attack? Lol, no.
Then I guess that attack wasn't more powerful.
Mentioning Tenshinhan's feat EXACTLY as it was portrayed in the manga=/='wanking'. Stop projecting.
What, you mean pushing Cell? If that's all his fanboys said he could do, I wouldn't care. But for some reason that gets taken to mean "he totally could have one-shotted all the villains" even though Ten himself said he couldn't do anything.
No, as flimsy as Dragonball plot is already, the plot would not collapse on itself for the following reasons:

1) Tenshinhan is using his own life force to stop Cell. So much energy is being used and-

2) All it could do is hold Cell back. Is Cell injured? No. And the biggest reasons-

3) He can't do it forever! Tenshinhan may have lasted ten minutes if that! Compared to a ROSAT Saiyan who, I don't know, an hour? Maybe 3 before they get tired?
He'd need to do it exactly once to end every single villain if it was as strong as the wankers say it was.
And second, when has a weaker character ever did more to a stronger character (outside of the Kienzan) besides scuff their bodies? How many times has the ultimate blast been sent and did nothing but pick up dust? That's like a third of the series right there, nothing but beam blast TANKS and everyone flabbergasted that the attack did nothing. But Tenshinhan? He pushed Cell into a crater, and he kept him there! If it was trash or worthless, Cell would have tanked it! He would have have done any number of things including go through the blasts effortlessly and kill Tenshinhan! That did not happen, so damn the Shin Kikoho must have been something, and if it had that ability on Cell, it's damn obvious that more would have happened to the Androids if they were hit with the blast! Someone go get some towels for the plot, that Tenshinhan wank happened and no Saiyan was there to stop it!
70% Freeza sent SS Goku flying into the ocean.

Kaioshin pushed away Majin Buu.

Base Trunks launched Cell out of the city.

There are numerous examples of an attack simply pushing someone back. Ten's feat is nothing new. But no one ever assumes base Trunks can one-shot the androids, or that Kaioshin can one-shot Majin Vegeta. Again, Ten literally said he couldn't do anything to the androids or a weaker form of Cell. This should end all debate about the Kikoho's supposedly awesome power, if the fact that he didn't use it against them wasn't enough, but no, apparently a lot of fans secretly hate the series, because they keep trying to make it look shittier by trying to make the story make even less sense.

Tenshinhan: "Well, I could use my super special awesome mega technique to take out those two androids that just beat up Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo. But that'd be boring. Instead, I'm gonna run in and fake being a pathetic weakling so that the androids can kick my ass. Then I'll lie, and tell everyone I'm useless and can't harm the androids. Then, finally, to complete my master plan, I'll wait until someone strong enough to survive this super special awesome mega technique comes around, and then use it on them. I'm so brilliant."

I just don't get it. The people pushing for the Kikoho being super strong are usually Tenshinhan's fans, right? The OP is, anyway. So why do they hate this character so much while at the same time declaring that they like him? They keep trying to demonize him by making him look like an evil retard. Like, he totally could've killed the androids all along, he just chose not to, and instead watched his friends charge off to their potential deaths. Then he charged in himself, apparently having a death wish. He also could have killed Imperfect Cell and saved the world, but instead chose to sit there and watch the seven and a half foot tall bug monster brutally beat 17 and Piccolo to near death while lying about how he couldn't help them. Apparently Tenshinhan is a sadistic asshole, and his "damn, there's nothing I can do" was meant as a bit of mean-spirited mocking.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:55 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:There are numerous examples of an attack simply pushing someone back. Ten's feat is nothing new. But no one ever assumes base Trunks can one-shot the androids, or that Kaioshin can one-shot Majin Vegeta. Again, Ten literally said he couldn't do anything to the androids or a weaker form of Cell. This should end all debate about the Kikoho's supposedly awesome power, if the fact that he didn't use it against them wasn't enough, but no, apparently a lot of fans secretly hate the series, because they keep trying to make it look shittier by trying to make the story make even less sense.
That's the best you got? You can't disprove what I say in record time, so I'm actually a hater? Pff, yeah. okay whatever dude. Oh and what, because there are five seperate instances of a stronger opponent being pushed instead of one, it's still unremarkable? The show is still one third of tanks, and there are more than 15 of them!
Tenshinhan: "Well, I could use my super special awesome mega technique to take out those two androids that just beat up Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo. But that'd be boring. Instead, I'm gonna run in and fake being a pathetic weakling so that the androids can kick my ass. Then I'll lie, and tell everyone I'm useless and can't harm the androids. Then, finally, to complete my master plan, I'll wait until someone strong enough to survive this super special awesome mega technique comes around, and then use it on them. I'm so brilliant."
Yes, Obviously. Correct a mundo. ''p

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Galan007 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:01 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Again, nope. It did zero damage, it just pushed him around for ten seconds. It was literally air to Cell. As numerous examples show, simply pushing someone with a shockwave (or even a physical blow) doesn't mean shit. Again, this shitty technique couldn't even kill Nappa or Daimao when Tenshinhan wasn't many times weaker than them. Unless he miraculously improved it be over a thousand times more potent, and then didn't share it with anyone else while lying about its capabilities just to be a dick, it doesn't have the power to do anything to Cell except push him back.

Then I guess that attack wasn't more powerful.

What, you mean pushing Cell? If that's all his fanboys said he could do, I wouldn't care. But for some reason that gets taken to mean "he totally could have one-shotted all the villains" even though Ten himself said he couldn't do anything.
Wow, is it commonplace for people on this board to blatantly ignore evidence, and retort by calling those they disagree with "fanboys" or "wankers"? Lol.

Fact: at the time, Piccolo=#17.
Fact: Imperfect Cell tanked Piccolo's all-out Masenko w/o so much as flinching.
Fact: Semi-Perfect Cell>>Imperfect Cell.
Fact: Semi-Perfect Cell did NOT tank ANY of Tien's Kikohos. Each beam overpowered Cell, and kept him down for a good duration of time.
Fact: Kikoho>>Masenko.

Again: #17 could NOT have tanked Piccolo's Masenko--he would have logically taken heavy damage from it. So if a demonstrably weaker attack than the Kikoho would have harmed #17-#18, why on earth would I believe they could endure the Kikoho itself? Frankly, it astounds me that you're holding one cherry-picked STATEMENT from Tien above the actual FEAT he preformed(feats should ALWAYS take precedence over statements.) Obvious CIS/PIS aside, the Z fighters have a nasty habit of underestimating their powers.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:04 pm

That's the best you got? You can't disprove what I say in record time, so I'm actually a hater? Pff, yeah. okay whatever dude. Oh and what, because there are five seperate instances of a stronger opponent being pushed instead of one, it's still unremarkable? The show is still one third of tanks, and there are more than 15 of them!
I'm not saying you hate the series. I'm just pointing out the irony of claiming to like the series while also pushing for a stance that would make the series significantly worse. Do you know what the difference was between those tanks and the times the dramatically stronger fighter got pushed? In the latter case, they were always hit with a kiai. Kaioshin wasn't holding back the ability to one-shot Vegeta, nor was Tenshinhan holding back the ability to one-shot Cell. They just had kiai techniques that could push their opponents while doing nothing else. Same with base Trunks and Cell, Freeza and Goku, etc.
Wow, is it commonplace for people on this board to blatantly ignore evidence, and retort by calling those they disagree with "fanboys" or "wankers"? Lol.

Fact: at the time, Piccolo=#17.
Fact: Imperfect Cell tanked Piccolo's all-out Masenko w/o so much as flinching.
Fact: Semi-Perfect Cell>>Imperfect Cell.
Fact: Semi-Perfect Cell did NOT tank any of Tenshinhan's Kikohos. Each beam overpowered Cell, and kept him down for a good duration of time.
Fact: Kikoho>>Masenko.
Again, it did no damage to Cell. It just pushed him. Pushing. Doesn't. Matter. It has never mattered. Go ask Freeza, Goku, Cell, and Buu. For someone who apparently doesn't like when evidence is ignored, you're certainly doing a lot of that right now.
Again: #17 could NOT have tanked Piccolo's Masenko--he would have logically taken heavy damage from it. So if a demonstrably weaker attack than the Kikoho would have harmed #17-#18, why on earth would I believe they could endure the Kikoho itself? F
Because:

A. The Kikoho has no damage feats. Oh sure, it could push them, but nothing else. It's repeatedly shown that an attack doesn't have to be anywhere near someone's power to push them.

B. Ten outright said it wouldn't do anything.

C. Ten never attempted it against the androids.
Frankly, it astounds me that you're holding one cherry-picked STATEMENT from Tenshinhan above the actual FEAT he preformed? Obvious CIS/PIS aside, the Z fighters have a nasty habit of underestimating their powers.
Again, what feat? If it killed Cell, that'd be one thing. But it just pushed him. He could have pushed 17, but what would that have done?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Galan007 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:14 pm

The FEAT of doing more to Semi-Perfect Cell than Piccolo's Masenko did to Imperfect Cell. Yes, that IS a feat--a feat that explicitly shows us that Kikoho>>Masenko. The Androids certainly couldn't tank the latter--they're definitely not tanking the former... But somehow a statement from Tien inextricably overrides the FEAT he demonstrated. Lol.

Anyway, I'm done here. This is pretty much like talking to a hate-fueled wall... You may have the last word which you so desperately crave. :thumbup:

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:18 pm

The FEAT of doing more to Semi-Perfect Cell than Piccolo's Masenko did to Imperfect Cell. Yes, that IS a feat--a feat that explicitly shows us that Kikoho>>Masenko
You keep saying that, but you've yet to actually prove that the Kikoho's power is superior to Piccolo's Light Grenade. All you've proven is that can push things, which we already knew. Now, where is the supposed feat that indicates that Ten can one-shot 17 with it?
The Androids certainly couldn't tank the latter--they're definitely not tanking the former... But somehow a statement from Tenshinhan inextricably overrides the FEAT he demonstrated. Lol.
Nope, the feats (the Kikoho doing nothing to Cell, other kiai-based attacks pushing way stronger characters, Ten getting destroyed without doing anything) and the statements (Ten saying he's useless, Ten saying he can't do anything to 17/Cell) both override... well, nothing, apparently, seeing as how you still haven't presented any actual evidence for your claim. The only thing that the scene indicates is that the Kikoho can PUSH Cell. Which means exactly jack shit, since it's repeatedly and consistently shown that an attack doesn't actually have to be powerful just to push someone.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:20 pm

Considering Tenshinhan said he was useless, then he can't do jack shit to them. If he could have killed them or even hurt them with something like the Shin Kikoho, he would have used it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Kaboom » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:27 pm

Let's try to keep all our attitudes in check, shall we? It's entirely possible to have a two-sided discussion without things sinking into snark and borderline insults.


Anyway, I say RandomGuy96 is on the ball with this one. The Shin Kikoho did nothing more than push Cell around, possibly causing some minor discomfort in the process, and it doesn't have to be more powerful than anyone else's attacks to have done so. Physically moving a stronger opponent without actually hurting them is something which kiai-type attacks have been shown to do in the past, and this is no different. The Kikoho is pretty much the mother of all kiai attacks, and it's not far-fetched to assume that even if an opponent's far too strong to be hurt by it, it could still put out enough raw pushing force to stop them in place or push them back.

The Shin Kikoho's surely a powerful attack, but it's not so outright broken that it'd let Tenshinhan instantly slaughter enemies who are probably thousands of times stronger than himself like the Androids. If it was, then there's no reason he'd hold back on using it, even at the possible cost of his own life. He'd also certainly not label himself as useless against Cell and the Androids if he was holding such a game-changing secret weapon all along. There's no willful ignorance of feats in favor of statements going on in saying that, either. It's simply reconciling both.
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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Galan007 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:12 pm

Kaboom wrote:Let's try to keep all our attitudes in check, shall we? It's entirely possible to have a two-sided discussion without things sinking into snark and borderline insults.


Anyway, I say RandomGuy96 is on the ball with this one. The Shin Kikoho did nothing more than push Cell around, possibly causing some minor discomfort in the process, and it doesn't have to be more powerful than anyone else's attacks to have done so. Physically moving a stronger opponent without actually hurting them is something which kiai-type attacks have been shown to do in the past, and this is no different. The Kikoho is pretty much the mother of all kiai attacks, and it's not far-fetched to assume that even if an opponent's far too strong to be hurt by it, it could still put out enough raw pushing force to stop them in place or push them back.

The Shin Kikoho's surely a powerful attack, but it's not so outright broken that it'd let Tenshinhan instantly slaughter enemies who are probably thousands of times stronger than himself like the Androids. If it was, then there's no reason he'd hold back on using it, even at the possible cost of his own life. He'd also certainly not label himself as useless against Cell and the Androids if he was holding such a game-changing secret weapon all along. There's no willful ignorance of feats in favor of statements going on in saying that, either. It's simply reconciling both.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. At least you don't resort to infantile name-calling simply because you don't like what someone else has said.

I disagree with you, but I can still respect your opinion. :thumbup:

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:11 am

In order for Ten to even hit the Shin - Kikoho, he'd have to catch one of the androids off guard and even then, it'll most likely just tear their clothes up similar to how Future Gohan's sneak drop kick sent 17 crashing into a building and ripping his clothes up pretty badly yet did absolutely no damage to him.

Remember the Androids are completely aware of the Z-Fighters' basic arsenal and the Shin-Kikoho looks pretty similar to the regular one so if anything, in a straight up fight, they'll just dodge it and Kill him probably before he kills himself.
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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by singsing » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:13 am

Kaboom wrote:Let's try to keep all our attitudes in check, shall we? It's entirely possible to have a two-sided discussion without things sinking into snark and borderline insults.


Anyway, I say RandomGuy96 is on the ball with this one. The Shin Kikoho did nothing more than push Cell around, possibly causing some minor discomfort in the process, and it doesn't have to be more powerful than anyone else's attacks to have done so. Physically moving a stronger opponent without actually hurting them is something which kiai-type attacks have been shown to do in the past, and this is no different. The Kikoho is pretty much the mother of all kiai attacks, and it's not far-fetched to assume that even if an opponent's far too strong to be hurt by it, it could still put out enough raw pushing force to stop them in place or push them back.

The Shin Kikoho's surely a powerful attack, but it's not so outright broken that it'd let Tenshinhan instantly slaughter enemies who are probably thousands of times stronger than himself like the Androids. If it was, then there's no reason he'd hold back on using it, even at the possible cost of his own life. He'd also certainly not label himself as useless against Cell and the Androids if he was holding such a game-changing secret weapon all along. There's no willful ignorance of feats in favor of statements going on in saying that, either. It's simply reconciling both.
I wouldn't say the cyborg's are THOUSANDS of times stronger than Ten :O. I mean, I'm sure that the androids are still in the hundreds of millions and from what Gero said about the human's, I feel that they're at least in the low millions to even be considered relevant ki for him to absorb.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Kaboom » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:16 am

singsing wrote:I wouldn't say the cyborg's are THOUSANDS of times stronger than Ten :O. I mean, I'm sure that the androids are still in the hundreds of millions and from what Gero said about the human's, I feel that they're at least in the low millions to even be considered relevant ki for him to absorb.
That was just a quick estimate based on the numbers in my own head (Ten: ~50k, Androids: 100s of millions). But the point stands whether they're tens, hundreds, thousands, or even millions of times stronger than him. It makes no practical difference in how the events unfolded.
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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:44 am

It's ridiculous to be labelled Tenshinhan wanker or whatever just because one has the temerity to believe his attack would logically be more effective against weaker opponents.
I just look at it simply: #16 punching Cell had no effect, Tenshinhan firing off dozens of Shin Kikoho absurdly did, thus the force of Shin Kikoho must be much greater than #16's punch.
Why is one labelled a Tenshinhan wanker for believing that?
Tenshinhan saying he couldn't do anything is proven wrong by him actually doing something.
It doesn't constitute as hating the story or anything. Toriyama just wrote himself into a corner, I guess.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:30 am

Kaboom wrote:Anyway, I say RandomGuy96 is on the ball with this one. The Shin Kikoho did nothing more than push Cell around, possibly causing some minor discomfort in the process, and it doesn't have to be more powerful than anyone else's attacks to have done so. Physically moving a stronger opponent without actually hurting them is something which kiai-type attacks have been shown to do in the past, and this is no different. The Kikoho is pretty much the mother of all kiai attacks, and it's not far-fetched to assume that even if an opponent's far too strong to be hurt by it, it could still put out enough raw pushing force to stop them in place or push them back.
Okay, fine. And I say that because of outside circumstance, Toryama needed a deus ex machina at a particular moment, only Tenshinhan was available, and only he had the only attack that looked impressive. And because he made Tenshinhan a deus ex machina to extend the plot, Tenshinhan logically had to have that power within him the whole time, Didn't use the power against the Androids? Blame the author's writing style and lack of planning, the series has so many inconsistencies, what's one more?...And I don't think Tenshinhan's last attack against Nappa would be a Kiai, what would be the point of sending Nappa flying with absolutely no damage if the attack worked correctly? No, the Kikoho (and Shin Kikoho) is a blast that would have atomised Nappa if he wasn't so strong.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by Regarder » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:10 am

If Goku (at the same level of power) used a Kamehameha that many times he'd still have energy left. The fact that the Shin Kikoho drains all your energy that fast shows that each shot is using HUGE portions of a person's total energy (people who can fight for very long periods of time normally) that are totally out of scale with other kinds of attacks.

My head-canon here is that a huge amount of ki has a relationship with the damage that ki can do (you could equate this to powerlevel), but it's hardly even remotely a one-to-one thing, and is in fact quite small later on. We've seen many times how poorly AOE correlates to the damage of an attack throughout the series. In-universe, it's almost like the ki has a property (whatever it is) which defeats the ki of an opponent, that is semi-independent of how much ki there is. A huge amount of ki at once has a huge push though which allows you to win beam struggles and so on, but you don't need enough ki to destroy every rock in a planet to hurt the enemy; you just need a high enough "powerlevel" to cancel out their ki protection enough to damage their body.

Thinking of it that way, Ten being able to push Cell but not hurt him makes sense. Shin-Kikoho uses a tremendous amount of ki at once, creating a wall with more ki at once than Cell's flight technique. However, the "powerlevel" of that ki is too low to actually damage Cell's body.

Similarly, he could push the androids with the technique, but there's no reason to think he could beat them. After all, if pushing someone in DB meant you could damage them, then Cell himself would have been hurt. Cell's stronger, but the point is that the scene doesn't tell us how damaging Ten can be.

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Re: Tenshinhan vs C-18/17

Post by rereboy » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:23 am

It wouldnt make sense for tenshinhan to be able to do anything meaningful to them, so no, he couldnt.

The fact that his attack was able to hold cell while piccolo's ultimate attack did nothing to a weaker version of cell is justified by simple power gap inconsistencies. Dragon ball has a lot of them and on their own they dont mean anything when there's logic reasons to think differently from what they suggest.
Last edited by rereboy on Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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