Tien vs C-18/17

[Angelus]

Goku himself said, after feeling it from Kami's lookout, that Tien's energy is going down rapidly but Cell's isn't taking any damage. It's like a little kid throwing socks at you, I could imagine. The kid could throw a million at you but you just won't bruise.

[Hitiro]

Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho is not simply a Kiai though. I think a lot of people are forgetting this fact. It vaporizes an area defined by the user. Something Kiai's don't do. While it isn't doing damage to Cell it is holding him back. I don't think saying that just because Kiai's do this means that the Shin Kikoho is not a powerful attack. Nobody would argue that Kuririn's Kienzan isn't superior to any other Ki based attack. And I think the majority of people would place Piccolo's Makenkosappo above Goku's Kamehameha due to its piercing quality. Tenshinhan confirmed that a regular Kikoho wouldn't be blockable by an opponent on par with his level when he thought Goku.

I mean if Shin Kikoho was just a Kiai then it would have made much more sense for Tenshinhan to just keep Semi-perfect Cell at bay with Kiai's. I would honestly consider Shin Kikoho up there in terms of powerful techniques. Whether it could take out 18 or 17 is unclear but from the quotes, Tenshinhan made himself sound like he couldn't do anything despite showing he could hold Semi-perfect Cell off. Which actually goes against his quote of not being able to do anything.

[rereboy]

He thought he couldn't do anything. He tried anyway and managed to keep Cell still for a few seconds at the cost of almost dying using that technique.

If Dragon Ball was perfectly consistent regarding power gaps and feats, it would make sense to claim that such an attack surely would have destroyed the androids. However, as we all know, its not perfectly consistent and there's plenty of oddities, so it doesn't make sense to give more importance to that instance than character's statements and logic of the plot.

[mAcChaos]

Maybe if he was actually able to connect with the attack it would hurt the androids.

But I believe when they said he couldn't do anything to them they meant that he wouldn't be given a chance to pull it off in a fight. 17 would never give him the chance.

[Artyom]

I'm still completely torn on the issue, the fact is that tien's attack has to be damaging to someone at the end of the day right?
Who's the strongest character hero/villain that would be extremely injured or killed and at what character tier would it stop being damaging at all?

[FoolsGil]

I'm still completely torn on the issue, the fact is that Tenshinhan's attack has to be damaging to someone at the end of the day right?
Who's the strongest character hero/villain that would be extremely injured or killed and at what character tier would it stop being damaging at all?

If you're on the side that 17 or 18 would have been atomized, every villain before them is dead to right before the Kikoho including Final Form Freeza.

If you're on the other side, well somewhere between Captain Ginyu and Third Form Freeza, that's where the Shin Kikoho can murder.

[Galan007]

If Goku (at the same level of power) used a Kamehameha that many times he'd still have energy left. The fact that the Shin Kikoho drains all your energy that fast shows that each shot is using HUGE portions of a person's total energy (people who can fight for very long periods of time normally) that are totally out of scale with other kinds of attacks.

That's why Roshi himself noted that the Kamehameha was "dog piss" in comparison to the Kikoho:
http://i.imgur.com/iOJ2oQG.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Xz2Ui39.gif

[Hitiro]

That's why Roshi himself noted that the Kamehameha was "dog piss" in comparison to the Kikoho:
http://i.imgur.com/iOJ2oQG.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Xz2Ui39.gif

Not a very good translation.

In the Viz translated manga Roshi says that the attack is many times more powerful then the Kamehameha.

[Galan007]

That's why Roshi himself noted that the Kamehameha was "dog piss" in comparison to the Kikoho:
http://i.imgur.com/iOJ2oQG.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Xz2Ui39.gif

Not a very good translation.

In the Viz translated manga Roshi says that the attack is many times more powerful then the Kamehameha.

Oh really? Good to know.

[Artyom]

If Goku (at the same level of power) used a Kamehameha that many times he'd still have energy left. The fact that the Shin Kikoho drains all your energy that fast shows that each shot is using HUGE portions of a person's total energy (people who can fight for very long periods of time normally) that are totally out of scale with other kinds of attacks.

That's why Roshi himself noted that the Kamehameha was "dog piss" in comparison to the Kikoho:
http://i.imgur.com/iOJ2oQG.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Xz2Ui39.gif

Yeah exactly, the kikoho isn't any normal attack it's so immensely powerful that it literally sucks the life out of you.
That's what also leads me to believe that the reason why Tien claims to be no match for the androids is because he's thinking of his readily available fighting power not his suicidal last resort fighting power.

[rereboy]

The Saiyans are at least 50 times stronger than Tenshinhan with SSj, since I don't think anyone believes he surpassed the base power of Goku or Vegeta, and the androids made the SSjs look weak. And semi perfect Cell is even more powerful.

But in the Saiyan arc, Nappa, who was nowhere near 50 times stronger than Tenshinhan took the ki-ko-oh in the face and wasn't even hurt.

Conclusion? Those things are inconsistent and no one should take the fact that the shin ki-ko-oh made cell stand still as proof of anything.

Tenshinhan states that he would be useless against the androids and there's no logical reason for him to be able to take them out when the Saiyans couldn't, so, he couldn't also.

[Artyom]

The Saiyans are at least 50 times stronger than Tenshinhan with SSj, since I don't think anyone believes he surpassed the base power of Goku or Vegeta, and the androids made the SSjs look weak. And semi perfect Cell is even more powerful.

But in the Saiyan arc, Nappa, who was nowhere near 50 times stronger than Tenshinhan took the ki-ko-oh in the face and wasn't even hurt.

Conclusion? Those things are inconsistent and no one should take the fact that the shin ki-ko-oh made cell stand still as proof of anything.

Tenshinhan states that he would be useless against the androids and there's no logical reason for him to be able to take them out when the Saiyans couldn't, so, he couldn't also.

To be fair Tien fired the kikoho ONE handed after taking a brutal beating and not having much energy left also he only fired once. Nappa stated it "wasn't half bad" so imagine if a fully powered Tien with both hands fired the same kikoho as many time at nappa as he did cell.

[Hitiro]

The Saiyans are at least 50 times stronger than Tenshinhan with SSj, since I don't think anyone believes he surpassed the base power of Goku or Vegeta, and the androids made the SSjs look weak. And semi perfect Cell is even more powerful.

But in the Saiyan arc, Nappa, who was nowhere near 50 times stronger than Tenshinhan took the ki-ko-oh in the face and wasn't even hurt.

Conclusion? Those things are inconsistent and no one should take the fact that the shin ki-ko-oh made cell stand still as proof of anything.

Tenshinhan states that he would be useless against the androids and there's no logical reason for him to be able to take them out when the Saiyans couldn't, so, he couldn't also.

I don't think the Nappa example is really translatable here. Tenshinhan was pretty much at deaths door before he used a one-handed Kikoho. We know that the attack drains your life force and if Tenshinhan had literally nothing left the attack isn't going to be as powerful as a Kikoho fired with all of somebodies life force while they are in peak condition. It's like saying Goku's Kamehameha while he has literally no energy left will still be strong. That isn't the case.

We also have to take into consideration that firing with one-hand weakened Tenshinhan's attack. It's likely he hasn't practised using the technique one-handed so there would be a decrease in the techniques efficiently. For example, Goku firing a Kamehameha from his feet isn't going to be as powerful as a Kamehameha that is fired from the normal hand gesture. If it were then why would Goku even need the Kamehameha hand gesture in the first place if he could just fire out Kamehameha's left, right and centre all at the same power?

Despite these factors Nappa was still taken off-guard by the attack and actually scared Nappa.

Chapter: 218 (DBZ 24), P14.2-6
Context: after Tenshinhan fires the Kikoho at Nappa
Nappa: “Phew…You really gave me a scare…!”
Vegeta: “That idiot, he used up all his power and died pointlessly…”

Now in the Android and Cell saga Tenshinhan has an attack that is more powerful than his original Kikoho. The Shin Kikoho. And considering Kame-sennin said:

Chapter: 132, P14.1
Kame-sennin: “It’s a technique that holds outrageous destructive power…many levels above even the Kamehameha…However, because of this extreme terribleness, it fiercely depletes one’s own energy, and they say people have even died from it…Even if one doesn’t die, one’s lifespan will undoubtedly be shortened…”

Here it says that the Kikoho is many levels above the Kamehameha. Putting that into perspective a Shin Kikoho is most likely many levels above the original Kikoho which is many levels above a Kamehameha. That easily puts the Shin Kikoho as one of the most destructive attacks in the series.

[rereboy]

The nappa example is not relevant you say? Imagine that tenshinhan could fire a ki-ko-oh 15 times stronger if he wasn't hurt. Now imagine that the shin ki-ko-oh is 15 times stronger than regular ki-ko-oh. That certainly covers any difference caused by tenshinhan's injuries and between the techniques with room to spare and nappa would have to have his power multiplied by 30 so that the same result would be observed.

Would he then be able to hurt the androids if we assume this? I dont think so, because they are OVER 50 times stronger than tenshinhan, probably a lot more. Heck, for them to not hundreds of times stronger than him, tenshinhan would have to have a power level of millions, and I have no idea how he could achieve that just by training on earth with chaotzu. Not even that makes sense.

[Hitiro]

The nappa example is not relevant you say? Imagine that tenshinhan could fire a ki-ko-oh 15 times stronger if he wasn't hurt. Now imagine that the shin ki-ko-oh is 15 times stronger than regular ki-ko-oh. That certainly covers any difference caused by tenshinhan's injuries and between the techniques with room to spare and nappa would have to have his power multiplied by 30 so that the same result would be observed.

Would he then be able to hurt the androids if we assume this? I dont think so, because they are OVER 50 times stronger than tenshinhan, probably a lot more. Heck, for them to not hundreds of times stronger than him, tenshinhan would have to have a power level of millions, and I have no idea how he could achieve that just by training on earth with chaotzu. Not even that makes sense.

It isn't relevant.

Let us go from your example and take into consideration that the Kikoho is 15 times(I assume you mean 15x stronger than himself?). Assuming that Nappa is roughly 2x to 3x stronger than Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan was close to dying anyway so his life force was pittance. If he had 20% of his life force and used it all the attack would be 3x his own battle power. That is without taking into consideration the decrease in efficiency with one hand. The attack might be half as effective with one hand which puts it at 1.5x his battle power. At 100% with both hands it would be 15x his battle power. And I should point out that 15 times stronger than an attack that is already 15 times stronger than your battle power would be 225x. Not 30x. That's like saying SSJ2 is 50 times stronger than SSJ. It isn't. It is only 2 times stronger than SSJ. If you use that example. Then it is highly possible that the Shin Kikoho which is 225x your battle power would be an effective weapon against the Androids. Though I'm speaking if you're using your example. Frankly I think a multiplier of 15 for the original Kikoho and then the Shin Kikoho being a further 15 times stronger than the original is a crazy amount.

[rereboy]

The nappa example is not relevant you say? Imagine that tenshinhan could fire a ki-ko-oh 15 times stronger if he wasn't hurt. Now imagine that the shin ki-ko-oh is 15 times stronger than regular ki-ko-oh. That certainly covers any difference caused by tenshinhan's injuries and between the techniques with room to spare and nappa would have to have his power multiplied by 30 so that the same result would be observed.

Would he then be able to hurt the androids if we assume this? I dont think so, because they are OVER 50 times stronger than tenshinhan, probably a lot more. Heck, for them to not hundreds of times stronger than him, tenshinhan would have to have a power level of millions, and I have no idea how he could achieve that just by training on earth with chaotzu. Not even that makes sense.

It isn't relevant.

Let us go from your example and take into consideration that the Kikoho is 15 times(I assume you mean 15x stronger than himself?). Assuming that Nappa is roughly 2x to 3x stronger than Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan was close to dying anyway so his life force was pittance. If he had 20% of his life force and used it all the attack would be 3x his own battle power. That is without taking into consideration the decrease in efficiency with one hand. The attack might be half as effective with one hand which puts it at 1.5x his battle power. At 100% with both hands it would be 15x his battle power. And I should point out that 15 times stronger than an attack that is already 15 times stronger than your battle power would be 225x. Not 30x. That's like saying SSJ2 is 50 times stronger than SSJ. It isn't. It is only 2 times stronger than SSJ. If you use that example. Then it is highly possible that the Shin Kikoho which is 225x your battle power would be an effective weapon against the Androids. Though I'm speaking if you're using your example. Frankly I think a multiplier of 15 for the original Kikoho and then the Shin Kikoho being a further 15 times stronger than the original is a crazy amount.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10 ; Nappa's power = 30; Tenshinhan's injured Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 versus Nappa with power 30 = no damage as seen in the manga.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; Nappa's power = 30; Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury would be 30 times stronger than before using my assumption, and as such would be equal to Tenshinhan using regular Ki-ko-oh with the same amount of injuries but at a power of 10 times 30 = 300; Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury versus Nappa with power 30, which is equal to Tenshinhan with the same injuries using regular Ki-ko-oh at power 300 versus Nappa with power 30 = unknown amount of damage to Nappa, almost certainly fatal for Nappa.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; Nappa's power = 30; Nappa's power times 30 = 900; Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury or Tenshinhan's regular Ki-ko-oh with injuries at power 300 versus Nappa's power multiplied by 30 which is 900 = same amount of damage as we saw in the manga, since the shin ki-ko-oh would be equal to a regular injured ki-ko-oh of Tenshinhan at power 300 and Nappa would still be three times stronger than that power as we saw in the manga.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; android's power = 550 (55 times the power of Tenshinhan = very low estimate); Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury or Tenshinhan's regular Ki-ko-oh with injuries at power 300 versus android with power of 550 = unknown amount of damage, almost certainly greater than the no damage that Nappa received since the difference is not three times, its just shy of two times.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; android's power = 900 (90 times the power of Tenshinhan = low/medium estimate); Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury or Tenshinhan's regular Ki-ko-oh with injuries at power 300 versus android with power of 900 = same situation as Nappa, no damage.

Conclusion? For Tenshinhan to actually do more damage than he did to Nappa, we have to assume a 30 times increase to his Shin Ki-ko-oh compared to his injured ki-ko-oh of the saiyan saga, which is ridiculous, and we have to have a VERY low estimate of how strong are the androids compared to him, just shy of 50 times (which is the bare minimum, considering that SSJ is a 50 times increase and there's no reason for Tenshinhan to have surpassed the saiyan's base power) which is also ridiculous.

Even maintaining the 30 times increase assumption, a more realistic estimate of the android's power would easily produce the same exact scenario as with Nappa, and even in this more realistic scenario, Tenshinhan's power level would have to be significantly greater than 1,5 million, since 90 times that is still lower than SSJ Goku's power level at Namek and the androids are much stronger than that.

So, as you can see, its perfectly relevant. Its gives us a reference just like I demonstrated, and by thinking of different scenarios from that reference, we realize how ridiculous is to claim that his attack could have injured or destroyed the androids. The natural and logical conclusion is to realize that, as we see various times in the manga, power gaps and feats are not perfectly consistent in the manga and, as such, there's no point in trying to extrapolate conclusions from Tenshinhan holding Cell still for a few seconds with no damage that go against everything else that the manga tells us.

[Hitiro]

- Tenshinhan's power = 10 ; Nappa's power = 30; Tenshinhan's injured Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 versus Nappa with power 30 = no damage as seen in the manga.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; Nappa's power = 30; Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury would be 30 times stronger than before using my assumption, and as such would be equal to Tenshinhan using regular Ki-ko-oh with the same amount of injuries but at a power of 10 times 30 = 300; Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury versus Nappa with power 30, which is equal to Tenshinhan with the same injuries using regular Ki-ko-oh at power 300 versus Nappa with power 30 = unknown amount of damage to Nappa, almost certainly fatal for Nappa.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; Nappa's power = 30; Nappa's power times 30 = 900; Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury or Tenshinhan's regular Ki-ko-oh with injuries at power 300 versus Nappa's power multiplied by 30 which is 900 = same amount of damage as we saw in the manga, since the shin ki-ko-oh would be equal to a regular injured ki-ko-oh of Tenshinhan at power 300 and Nappa would still be three times stronger than that power as we saw in the manga.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; android's power = 550 (55 times the power of Tenshinhan = very low estimate); Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury or Tenshinhan's regular Ki-ko-oh with injuries at power 300 versus android with power of 550 = unknown amount of damage, almost certainly greater than the no damage that Nappa received since the difference is not three times, its just shy of two times.

- Tenshinhan's power = 10; android's power = 900 (90 times the power of Tenshinhan = low/medium estimate); Tenshinhan's Shin Ki-Ko-oh at power 10 with no injury or Tenshinhan's regular Ki-ko-oh with injuries at power 300 versus android with power of 900 = same situation as Nappa, no damage.

Conclusion? For Tenshinhan to actually do more damage than he did to Nappa, we have to assume a 30 times increase to his Shin Ki-ko-oh compared to his injured ki-ko-oh of the saiyan saga, which is ridiculous, and we have to have a VERY low estimate of how strong are the androids compared to him, just shy of 50 times (which is the bare minimum, considering that SSJ is a 50 times increase and there's no reason for Tenshinhan to have surpassed the saiyan's base power) which is also ridiculous.

Even maintaining the 30 times increase assumption, a more realistic estimate of the android's power would easily produce the same exact scenario as with Nappa, and even in this more realistic scenario, Tenshinhan's power level would have to be significantly greater than 1,5 million, since 90 times that is still lower than SSJ Goku's power level at Namek and the androids are much stronger than that.

I'm lost. What are you assuming the Kikoho is at from the examples you gave? You say that Tenshinhan's power = 10. And when he is injured he releases a an attack that is at the same level of his power? What is Tenshinhan's multiplier for a Kikoho without injury and using both hands? 15 times his power? In that case the Shin Kikoho is a 2x increase on his regular Kikoho. I would assume that the Shin Kikoho is more than 2x stronger than a regular Kikoho. Why are you increasing Nappa's power? What is this here to demonstrate? You can't just increase Nappa's power without increasing Tenshinhan's by the same amount.

You just can't increase one characters strength and weaken another for your argument. If you are going to increase Nappa's power by 30 then the gap between Tenshinhan and Nappa would be inconsistent to the story. Tenshinhan is not 30 times weaker than Nappa without injury.

since the shin ki-ko-oh would be equal to a regular injured ki-ko-oh of Tenshinhan at power 300

Why? I don't see how a shin Kikoho would be equal to a regular injured Kikohoh. I don't think you are explaining your point correctly here because I don't follow this. I can understand the others.

Your conclusion doesn't take into account the multiplier for the regular Kikoho. What is it? Because I agree a 30x increase on the Shin Kikoho is ridiculous. But if the regular Kikoho is, for example, 7x Tenshinhan's power. Then the Shin Kikoho was an additional 7x stronger than the regular Kikoho that would be a 49x Tenshinhan's Power. Are you making the assumption that Tenshinhan's regular Kikoho is a 1x multiplier to his power?

Can you please explain this more clearly.

[Kaboom]

While the Kikoho obviously has plenty of destructive force, it's still categorized in the guidebooks and such as a kiai-type. So I just think that even when a foe is far too much stronger than Tenshinhan to actually be hurt by the attack's explosive/burning/whatever aspects, the raw blunt pushing force is still potent enough to affect them. Hence Ten was able to shove Cell around, but not actually do any damage to him.

[rereboy]

Hitiro, its simple logic.

Lets assume that Tenshinhan at power 10 and injured can produce a Ki-ko-oh with the same power as his own = 10.

Now, lets assume that with Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries he can produce an attack 30 times greater than the power of Ki-ko-oh with those injuries. Since that attack is 10 the Shin Ki-ko-oh would be 300.

But what if Tenshinhan had a power of 300, had the same injuries, and fired a regular Ki-Ko-oh? Well, that attack would have the same power that he has = 300.

Therefore, Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries at power 10 = Ki-ko-oh with those injuries at power 300.

The same logic applies even if you change the numbers.

For example, If you assume that Tenshinhan at power 10 and injured can produce a Ki-ko-oh with the power of 15 (1.5 times increase compared to his power), the Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries would be 30 times the power of that attack = 15 x 30 = 450.

So, what if Tenshinhan had a power of 300, had the same injuries, and fired a regular ki-ko-oh? Well, that attack would be 1.5 stronger than his 300 power, meaning it would be 450.

So, once again, Tenshinhan at power 300 and injured firing a regular Ki-ko-oh = Tenshinhan at power 10 with no injuries firing a shin ki-ko-oh.

The rest is already explained in my previous post. Nappa suffered no damage from Tenshinhan. If we assume that the Shin Ki-ko-oh with no injuries would be 30 times stronger, if Nappa was also 30 times stronger, there would also be no damage, since the same difference of three times the power level would remain between nappa and tenshinhan. Doing the math shows that even a very low scenario for the android 's power would put him at 2 times Tenshinhan's power level, which might guarantee damage for the android but requires a pretty ridiculous set of assumptions like demonstrated and doesn't guarantee death for the android. And even that crumbles if we assume a tad more realistic estimate for the android's power.

Not to mention that if you assume Nappa's power level to be just around two times the power of Tenshinhan, just like the guides suggest (Tenshinhan = 1830 and Nappa = 4000), instead of the three times that I assumed for their difference, even the very low estimate for the android's power should be close enough for it to have no damage like with Nappa.

[Hitiro]

While the Kikoho obviously has plenty of destructive force, it's still categorized in the guidebooks and such as a kiai-type. So I just think that even when a foe is far too much stronger than Tenshinhan to actually be hurt by the attack's explosive/burning/whatever aspects, the raw blunt pushing force is still potent enough to affect them. Hence Ten was able to shove Cell around, but not actually do any damage to him.

I don't disagree with this but the fact still remains that the Kikoho is one of the most destructive attacks in the anime and manga. Even if it is considered a kiai-type most kiai's in the manga and anime have only demonstrated pushing an opponent roughly 2x stronger than the person using them. Not saying that this amount is the maximum. But I don't recall any examples exceeding this. So the Shin Kikoho's Ki output must be only a couple of times weaker than Semi-perfect Cell.

Lets assume that Tenshinhan at power 10 and injured can produce a Ki-ko-oh with the same power as his own = 10.

Right that is fine, but you are aren't quantifying what this Kikoho's multiplier is. So what are we assuming a regular Kikoho would do with Tenshinhan's power output of 10?

Now, lets assume that with Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries he can produce an attack 30 times greater than the power of Ki-ko-oh with those injuries. Since that attack is 10 the Shin Ki-ko-oh would be 300.

I have no problem with this. But if you are going to go this far then what is the regular Kikoho's Ki output? If you are saying that the Shin Kikoho would output at 30 times stonger than a regular Kikoho. Then I would honestly assume that the Shin Kikoho is above 50x Tenshinhan's power. Goku's Kamehameha against Raditz was just over 2x his power. Let us pretend that the regular Kikoho only produces an attack 3x Tenshinhan's power.

Injured Tenshinhan + Regular Kikoho: 3.33(injured state of power)*3 = 10?
Regular Kikoho: 10*3= 30.
Injured Tenshinhan + Shin Kikoho: 3.33(injured state of power)*(3*30)= 300.
Shin Kikoho: 10*(3*30) = 900.

But what if Tenshinhan had a power of 300, had the same injuries, and fired a regular Ki-Ko-oh? Well, that attack would have the same power that he has = 300.

Therefore, Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries at power 10 = Ki-ko-oh with those injuries at power 300.

Right, what is your point here? That is clear so I don't see your point.

The same logic applies even if you change the numbers.

For example, If you assume that Tenshinhan at power 10 and injured can produce a Ki-ko-oh with the power of 15 (1.5 times increase compared to his power), the Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries would be 30 times the power of that attack = 15 x 30 = 450.

So, what if Tenshinhan had a power of 300, had the same injuries, and fired a regular ki-ko-oh? Well, that attack would be 1.5 stronger than his 300 power, meaning it would be 450.

So, once again, Tenshinhan at power 300 and injured firing a regular Ki-ko-oh = Tenshinhan at power 10 with no injuries firing a shin ki-ko-oh.

I understand what you are saying. Still don't see the point you are making.

The rest is already explained in my previous post.

Your previous post doesn't give us what the true multiplier for a Shin Kikoho is though. You keep saying it's 30x stronger than the regluar Kikoho. But that means nothing unless we know what the output of the original Kikoho actually is. I can say that SSJ2 is 2x stronger than SSJ. Without saying what the multiplier for SSJ is then SSJ2 could be 1000x a Saiyan's base battle power. I mean in the example you provided in the previous post. If the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than a regular Kikoho then Tenshinhan would be unleashing an attack with 90 times his battle power which kind of disagree's with both your last points of the androids being 55 times stonger than him and 90 times stronger than him.

Or are you saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than a weakened Kikoho? In which case, what is the strength difference between Tenshinhan's regular Kikoho without injuries and the Shin Kikoho? If we go by my random example of the regular Kikoho having 3x the power of the user. Then the Shin Kikoho is 10x stronger than the Kikoho?