Tien vs C-18/17

[rereboy]

As I've demonstrated, even if you vary the multiplier for Ki-ko-oh (1x or 1,5x or any other), if the assumption if that the shin ki-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than the Ki-ko-oh, the specific value for the multiplier of the attacks won't change anything. The conclusions will be the same. You even agreed to this.

So, if Tenshinhan was unable to give damage to Nappa while injured and with a regular Ki-Ko-oh, you know that in those conditions the Ki-Ko-oh doesn't do anything, no matter what the specific value for the multiplier is. Point 1.

And you also know, like demonstrated, that if the uninjured Tenshinhan's shin ki-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than the his injured Ki-ko-oh, if Tenshinhan own power was 30 times stronger than before, his injured ki-ko-oh would be equal to his previous uninjured shin ki-ko-oh, no matter what the specific multiplier is. Point 2. You also agreed to this, btw.

So, with these assumptions, to compare how the shin Ki-ko-oh would do in terms of damage in regards to the injured Ki-ko-oh (which will be our reference according to point 1), we just multiply Tenshinhan's power level by 30, since, as proven in the previous point, they makes the attacks equal. Point 4.

So, if his opponent has the same difference in power level that Nappa had compared to Tenshinhan when he took the injured Ki-ko-oh after we multiply Tenshinhan's power level by 30, it will be the same exact situation that we saw in the Saiyan arc and we know, therefore, that Tenshinhan's uninjured shin ki-ko-oh would do no damage. Point 5.

And by multiplying Tenshinhan's probable power level in the Cell arc by 30, do the androids still have a power advantage as great or greater than Nappa had compared to Tenshinhan? Almost certainly. Point 5.

Only in the very low estimates for their power they might not have as much, but not very far. And I once again remind you that this is assuming that Shin Ki-Ko-oh would be 30 times stronger. That is exaggerated on purpose, of course and not at all realistic, to over compensate the difference that his injuries and the different technique would provide.

[Hitiro]

As I've demonstrated, even if you vary the multiplier for Ki-ko-oh (1x or 1,5x or any other), if the assumption if that the shin ki-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than the Ki-ko-oh, the specific value for the multiplier of the attacks won't change anything. The conclusions will be the same. You even agreed to this.

No. I didn't agree to this. What I agreed to was that providing you give a certain gap in power the regular Kikoho could be as powerful as the Shin Kikoho. If you change the multiplier for the regular Kikoho and say that the Shin Kikoho is 30 time stronger then it does matter. For example:

Regular Kikoho: 3x multiplier.

Shin Kikoho: (3*30)= 90x multiplier.

Regular Kikoho: 1.5x multiplier.

Shin Kikoho: (1.5*30) = 45x multipler.

By decreasing the regluar Kikoho's multiplier it has a direct influence on the Shin Kikoho. As you can see above. So if you are saying that Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than a regular Kikoho whatever the multiplier for the regular Kikoho is must be factored in regards to the power output of the Shin Kikoho.

So, if Tenshinhan was unable to give damage to Nappa while injured and with a regular Ki-Ko-oh, you know that in those conditions the Ki-Ko-oh doesn't do anything, no matter what the specific value for the multiplier is. Point 1.

Actually. It does matter. Because if you change the multiplier you have to change how much energy/life Tenshinhan stuck into the attack to not affect Nappa. If the multiplier value for the Kikoho was something crazy like 500x then 1% of Tenshinhan's life force would be enough to defeat Nappa. But we know it isn't that high. Whatever the multiplier is you have to factor in the other elements. Whatever remained of Tenshinhan's lifeforce wasn't enough for the multiplier to do something significant to Nappa. But it certainly scared him. And if he had slightly more life force then it would have done damage. So you really have to balance the multiplier with how much life force Tenshinhan had left.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Tenshinhan had all his life force and he used it all against Nappa but it played out exactly as the story depicted. What can we gather from this information? Well. We can gather that the multiplier for the Kikoho is not above 3x. Right? Because if Tenshinhan could put 100% of his life force into an attack but it do nothing then the energy didn't scale very well.

Now let's assume for the sake of argument that Tenshinhan had 20% of his life force left and he used it all against Nappa but it played out exactly as the story depicted. What can we gather from this information now? We can gather that the multiplier for Kikoho is significantly above 3x. Right? Because if Tenshinhan could put 20% of his life force and give Nappa a scare then the energy multiplier scaled incredibly well.

And you also know, like demonstrated, that if the uninjured Tenshinhan's shin ki-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than the his injured Ki-ko-oh, if Tenshinhan own power was 30 times stronger than before, his injured ki-ko-oh would be equal to his previous uninjured shin ki-ko-oh, no matter what the specific multiplier is. Point 2. You also agreed to this, btw.

Hold on. I made a mistake here. This is incorrect. The injured regular Kikoho would be equal to his injured Shin Kikoho. Not his uninjured version. I refer you back to my previous post:

Injured Tenshinhan + Regular Kikoho: 3.33(injured state of power)*3 = 10?
Regular Kikoho: 10*3= 30.
Injured Tenshinhan + Shin Kikoho: 3.33(injured state of power)*(3*30)= 300.
Shin Kikoho: 10*(3*30) = 900.

As you can see an uninjured Tenshinhan with a regular Shin Kikoho at a power of 10 is actually 900. That is 3x stronger than an injured version in this example. So no. An uninjured Shin Kikoho at a power of 10 is above a injured Kikoho at a power of 300.

So, with these assumptions, to compare how the shin Ki-ko-oh would do in terms of damage in regards to the injured Ki-ko-oh (which will be our reference according to point 1), we just multiply Tenshinhan's power level by 30, since, as proven in the previous point, they makes the attacks equal. Point 4.

Well my previous point shows that the decrease in power from being injured has to be factored in so multiplying his power by 30 is not enough. You need to make up the difference in injury if you are going to say that a injured Kikoho is on par with uninjured Shin Kikoho if you just times Tenshinhan's power by 30.

So, if his opponent has the same difference in power level that Nappa had compared to Tenshinhan when he took the injured Ki-ko-oh after we multiply Tenshinhan's power level by 30, it will be the same exact situation that we saw in the Saiyan arc and we know, therefore, that Tenshinhan's uninjured shin ki-ko-oh would do no damage. Point 5.

Huh? If there was the same difference in power level between Nappa and Tenshinhan then a regular Kikoho at full strength would be more than enough to kill the opponent. Are you saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x Tenshinhan's power level now? Because up until this point you've been saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than the regular Kikoho? So which is it?

And by multiplying Tenshinhan's probable power level in the Cell arc by 30, do the androids still have a power advantage as great or greater than Nappa had compared to Tenshinhan? Almost certainly. Point 5.

Okay. So from this point I assume you are saying that the multiplier for the Shin Kikoho is 30x the users power level? Assuming this then there is nothing wrong with this point. But if you are saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than the regular Kikoho then you have to take the multiplier of the regular Kikoho and multiply it by 30. As I said previously, making the assumption that the regular Kikoho is a 3x multiplier would put the Shin Kikoho at 90x the users power level.

Only in the very low estimates for their power they might not have as much, but not very far. And I once again remind you that this is assuming that Shin Ki-Ko-oh would be 30 times stronger. That is exaggerated on purpose, of course and not at all realistic, to over compensate the difference that his injuries and the different technique would provide.

Again. 30 times stronger than what? Than Tenshinhan's power level/battle power? Or 30 times stronger than the regular Kikoho. Because like I said, if it is 30 times stronger than the regular Kikoho that would yield a 90x increase overall. If it is the former then your point makes sense. But if it is the latter then it doesn't.

[rereboy]

No. I didn't agree to this. What I agreed to was that providing you give a certain gap in power the regular Kikoho could be as powerful as the Shin Kikoho. If you change the multiplier for the regular Kikoho and say that the Shin Kikoho is 30 time stronger then it does matter. For example:

Regular Kikoho: 3x multiplier.

Shin Kikoho: (3*30)= 90x multiplier.

Regular Kikoho: 1.5x multiplier.

Shin Kikoho: (1.5*30) = 45x multipler.

By decreasing the regluar Kikoho's multiplier it has a direct influence on the Shin Kikoho. As you can see above. So if you are saying that Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than a regular Kikoho whatever the multiplier for the regular Kikoho is must be factored in regards to the power output of the Shin Kikoho.

You are making a mistake. I said that I was assuming that the Shin Ki-Ki-oh is 30 times stronger than the power of injured regular Ki-ko-oh. I didn't say that its 30 times stronger than the multiplier itself, which is what you are doing there.

Example 1 (multiplier 2x):

- Tenshinhan's power = 10 ;

- Tenshinhan's injured Ki-Ko-oh = 10 x 2 = 20;

- Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh = 20 x 30 = 600;

- 30 times stronger Tenshinhan's injured Ki-ko-oh = (30 x 10) x 2 = 300 x 2 = 600

Conclusion? With the assumption that Shin-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than injured regular Ki-ko-oh, Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh is equal to a 30 times stronger injured Tenshinhan firing a regular Ki-ko-oh.

Example 2 (multiplier 4.5x)

- Tenshinhan's power = 10 ;

- Tenshinhan's injured Ki-Ko-oh = 10 x 4.5 = 45;

- Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh = 45 x 30 = 1350;

- 30 times stronger Tenshinhan's injured Ki-ko-oh = (30 x 10) x 4.5 = 300 x 4.5 = 1350

Conclusion? With the assumption that Shin-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than injured regular Ki-ko-oh, Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh is equal to a 30 times stronger injured Tenshinhan firing a regular Ki-ko-oh, and this is true even if the assume different values for the multiplier of the Ki-ko-oh, so the specific value doesn't matter for this conclusion.

And as you have said, a 30 times increase in exaggerated, and because is exaggerated is more than enough to compensate whatever differences there could be between the injured Ki-Ko-oh and the shin Ki-ko-oh.

Actually. It does matter. Because if you change the multiplier you have to change how much energy/life Tenshinhan stuck into the attack to not affect Nappa. If the multiplier value for the Kikoho was something crazy like 500x then 1% of Tenshinhan's life force would be enough to defeat Nappa. But we know it isn't that high. Whatever the multiplier is you have to factor in the other elements. Whatever remained of Tenshinhan's lifeforce wasn't enough for the multiplier to do something significant to Nappa. But it certainly scared him. And if he had slightly more life force then it would have done damage. So you really have to balance the multiplier with how much life force Tenshinhan had left.

All those differences are already accounted for in the 30 times increase. The 30 times increase is an exaggerated figure designed to include WHATEVER differences there might be between the injured ki-ko-oh and the shin ki-ko-oh by assuming an exaggerated increase far beyond what would realistic. We could exaggerate even further, but this 30 times increase is already way more than enough to compensate whatever realistic differences there might exist between the two cases, so there's no point.

Hold on. I made a mistake here. This is incorrect. The injured regular Kikoho would be equal to his injured Shin Kikoho. Not his uninjured version. I refer you back to my previous post:

Injured Tenshinhan + Regular Kikoho: 3.33(injured state of power)*3 = 10?
Regular Kikoho: 10*3= 30.
Injured Tenshinhan + Shin Kikoho: 3.33(injured state of power)*(3*30)= 300.
Shin Kikoho: 10*(3*30) = 900.

As you can see an uninjured Tenshinhan with a regular Shin Kikoho at a power of 10 is actually 900. That is 3x stronger than an injured version in this example. So no. An uninjured Shin Kikoho at a power of 10 is above a injured Kikoho at a power of 300.

And you continue to make mistakes. The 30 times increase already accounts for the differences between the techniques AND the differences in his injured state and non injured state. If it was just between the techniques and no injuries, the difference with be lower than 30. If you have trouble with the math, see what I wrote above.

Well my previous point shows that the decrease in power from being injured has to be factored in so multiplying his power by 30 is not enough. You need to make up the difference in injury if you are going to say that a injured Kikoho is on par with uninjured Shin Kikoho if you just times Tenshinhan's power by 30.

See above.

Huh? If there was the same difference in power level between Nappa and Tenshinhan then a regular Kikoho at full strength would be more than enough to kill the opponent. Are you saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x Tenshinhan's power level now? Because up until this point you've been saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than the regular Kikoho? So which is it?

I fail to understand how you can miss my point when I've already explained it so many times...

Tenshinhan firing a Shin Ki-ko-oh is EQUAL to a 30 times stronger and injured Tenshinhan firing a regular Ki-ko-oh, if we assume the (exaggerated) 30 times increase to compensate for the injuries and the differences in the techniques themselves, like I've already demonstrated several times,

Therefore, Tenshinhan firing a Shin Ki-Ko-oh on an android WOULD BE EQUAL to a 30 times stronger and injured Tenshinhan firing a regular Ki-Ko-Oh on an android.

Would the android survive or receive damage?

Nappa received no damage and lets say he was three times stronger than Tenshinhan, so lets use that as a reference. So, if Tenshinhan had the same injuries and fired a regular Ki-ko-oh and the android was at least 3 times stronger than Tenshinhan, the result would be the same as Nappa. But what if Tenshinhan used Shin Ki-Ko-oh and wasn't injured? To simulate this, since that situation would be EQUAL to having a 30 times stronger and injured Tenshinhan firing a regular Ki-ko-oh as demonstrated, we can take the probable power level of Tenshinhan for that arc and multiply it by 30. If the androids are still at least as strong or stronger than 3 times the 30 times stronger and injured Tneshinhan, the android would also receive no damage.

Okay. So from this point I assume you are saying that the multiplier for the Shin Kikoho is 30x the users power level? Assuming this then there is nothing wrong with this point. But if you are saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than the regular Kikoho then you have to take the multiplier of the regular Kikoho and multiply it by 30. As I said previously, making the assumption that the regular Kikoho is a 3x multiplier would put the Shin Kikoho at 90x the users power level.

No, you just failed to understand the point. See above and read carefully.

Again. 30 times stronger than what? Than Tenshinhan's power level/battle power? Or 30 times stronger than the regular Kikoho. Because like I said, if it is 30 times stronger than the regular Kikoho that would yield a 90x increase overall. If it is the former then your point makes sense. But if it is the latter then it doesn't.

I explained everything very clearly more than once and in more than one different way. You just have to read carefully. Like I said, the assumption is that Shin Ki-Ko-oh is 30 stronger than the power of the Ki-ko-oh made by the injured Tenshinhan, and the 30 times figure already includes the differences due to the injures and due to the differences between the techniques themselves.

I won't explain again. Everything is already on my posts. You just have to read carefully. I'm done with the discussion. I will just add that its a pity that you continue to have such difficulty in understanding what I say, even when its clearly presented.

[Hitiro]

You are making a mistake. I said that I was assuming that the Shin Ki-Ki-oh is 30 times stronger than the power of injured regular Ki-ko-oh. I didn't say that its 30 times stronger than the multiplier itself, which is what you are doing there.

Example 1 (multiplier 2x):

- Tenshinhan's power = 10 ;

- Tenshinhan's injured Ki-Ko-oh = 10 x 2 = 20;

- Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh = 20 x 30 = 600;

- 30 times stronger Tenshinhan's injured Ki-ko-oh = (30 x 10) x 2 = 300 x 2 = 600

Conclusion? With the assumption that Shin-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than injured regular Ki-ko-oh, Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh is equal to a 30 times stronger injured Tenshinhan firing a regular Ki-ko-oh.

Example 2 (multiplier 4.5x)

- Tenshinhan's power = 10 ;

- Tenshinhan's injured Ki-Ko-oh = 10 x 4.5 = 45;

- Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh = 45 x 30 = 1350;

- 30 times stronger Tenshinhan's injured Ki-ko-oh = (30 x 10) x 4.5 = 300 x 4.5 = 1350

Conclusion? With the assumption that Shin-ko-oh is 30 times stronger than injured regular Ki-ko-oh, Tenshinhan Shin Ki-Ko-oh is equal to a 30 times stronger injured Tenshinhan firing a regular Ki-ko-oh, and this is true even if the assume different values for the multiplier of the Ki-ko-oh, so the specific value doesn't matter for this conclusion.

I am making the mistake because you aren't being clear... It would have been more easily understood if you actually used numbers like you have here. There is no reason why you couldn't have just said the Shin Kikoho is X times stronger than the Kikoho. Because I have been going under the assumption that the multiplier for the injured Kikoho doesn't change. Only the energy transferred into it. So if you say that the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than the injured Kikoho. I can easily construed it if I'm thinking that the Kikoho is a fixed multiplier.

And as you have said, a 30 times increase in exaggerated, and because is exaggerated is more than enough to compensate whatever differences there could be between the injured Ki-Ko-oh and the shin Ki-ko-oh.

Well I wasn't thinking a 30x increase on the original was ridiculous. Buy the the original having a 7x multiplier and then the Shin Kikoho being 5x more powerful than the original is fine in my book.

Actually. It does matter. Because if you change the multiplier you have to change how much energy/life Tenshinhan stuck into the attack to not affect Nappa. If the multiplier value for the Kikoho was something crazy like 500x then 1% of Tenshinhan's life force would be enough to defeat Nappa. But we know it isn't that high. Whatever the multiplier is you have to factor in the other elements. Whatever remained of Tenshinhan's lifeforce wasn't enough for the multiplier to do something significant to Nappa. But it certainly scared him. And if he had slightly more life force then it would have done damage. So you really have to balance the multiplier with how much life force Tenshinhan had left.

All those differences are already accounted for in the 30 times increase. The 30 times increase is an exaggerated figure designed to include WHATEVER differences there might be between the injured ki-ko-oh and the shin ki-ko-oh by assuming an exaggerated increase far beyond what would realistic. We could exaggerate even further, but this 30 times increase is already way more than enough to compensate whatever realistic differences there might exist between the two cases, so there's no point.

That is all fine now that I know what you were trying to say. But I don't think it is ridiculous to have an attack that is a 30x multiplier. If you really want to think that then Kaioken x20 is just as ridiculous if you think about it. Because it is a Ki based technique. Even if it isn't an attack.

And you continue to make mistakes. The 30 times increase already accounts for the differences between the techniques AND the differences in his injured state and non injured state. If it was just between the techniques and no injuries, the difference with be lower than 30. If you have trouble with the math, see what I wrote above.

You say I continue to make mistakes but this is only because you didn't clearly specify it. You never made an attempt to explain how you saw the injured stated and uninjured state until now. It makes more sense what you mean now that you quantified it. I can see that you are changing the multiplier rather than Tenshinhan's actual power. Which is what I was doing.

Huh? If there was the same difference in power level between Nappa and Tenshinhan then a regular Kikoho at full strength would be more than enough to kill the opponent. Are you saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x Tenshinhan's power level now? Because up until this point you've been saying that the Shin Kikoho is 30x stronger than the regular Kikoho? So which is it?

I fail to understand how you can miss my point when I've already explained it so many times...

I failed because you never made any attempt to quantify how you saw the injured and uninjured state. You never explained that you were working with fixed powers and differentiating multipliers for injury. Because to me it makes more sense that the multiplier stays the same unless it's because of the stance of the attack that is off. Like firing with one hand. But injuries I would never assume as influencing the multiplier.

I explained everything very clearly more than once and in more than one different way. You just have to read carefully. Like I said, the assumption is that Shin Ki-Ko-oh is 30 stronger than the power of the Ki-ko-oh made by the injured Tenshinhan, and the 30 times figure already includes the differences due to the injures and due to the differences between the techniques themselves.

I won't explain again. Everything is already on my posts. You just have to read carefully. I'm done with the discussion. I will just add that its a pity that you continue to have such difficulty in understanding what I say, even when its clearly presented.

You never explained it clearly to be honest. It may have made sense in your head. But you never provided enough info for me to understand that attack multipliers were not fixed. And I would prefer it if you wouldn't speak to me like this. I don't know if you meant it but you come across as incredibly patronizing when you said this. Don't blame me for you not trying to tackle what you meant in a clearer way like you actually managed to in the post prior to this.

[rereboy]

I am making the mistake because you aren't being clear... It would have been more easily understood if you actually used numbers like you have here.

I will now post exactly what I had already posted previously:

"Lets assume that Tenshinhan at power 10 and injured can produce a Ki-ko-oh with the same power as his own = 10.

Now, lets assume that with Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries he can produce an attack 30 times greater than the power of Ki-ko-oh with those injuries. Since that attack is 10 the Shin Ki-ko-oh would be 300.

But what if Tenshinhan had a power of 300, had the same injuries, and fired a regular Ki-Ko-oh? Well, that attack would have the same power that he has = 300.

Therefore, Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries at power 10 = Ki-ko-oh with those injuries at power 300."

"The same logic applies even if you change the numbers.

For example, If you assume that Tenshinhan at power 10 and injured can produce a Ki-ko-oh with the power of 15 (1.5 times increase compared to his power), the Shin Ki-Ko-Oh with no injuries would be 30 times the power of that attack = 15 x 30 = 450.

So, what if Tenshinhan had a power of 300, had the same injuries, and fired a regular ki-ko-oh? Well, that attack would be 1.5 stronger than his 300 power, meaning it would be 450.

So, once again, Tenshinhan at power 300 and injured firing a regular Ki-ko-oh = Tenshinhan at power 10 with no injuries firing a shin ki-ko-oh."

How was that different from what I just said? It isn't. I said the same exact thing in clear language, only in a different way. You simply didn't read carefully, as usual. You even wrote that you agreed and understood when clearly you didn't understand at all, and now you claim that its my fault for not being clear....

There is no reason why you couldn't have just said the Shin Kikoho is X times stronger than the Kikoho.

Yes, there is, because obviously an injured Tenshinhan will likely produce an weaker attack than a non-injured Tenshinhan. If I had said that, there would still be the difference between his injured state and normal state to take into account. And if you actually read carefully you would have realized that fact in every single one of my posts, not to mention this post of mine that you obviously paid no great attention to:

"The nappa example is not relevant you say? Imagine that tenshinhan could fire a ki-ko-oh 15 times stronger if he wasn't hurt. Now imagine that the shin ki-ko-oh is 15 times stronger than regular ki-ko-oh. That certainly covers any difference caused by tenshinhan's injuries and between the techniques with room to spare and nappa would have to have his power multiplied by 30 so that the same result would be observed."

This was one of my first posts and it further proves just how carefully you read what I was saying since in it its clear as day that the 30 times increase I assumed takes into account the injuries.

But I don't think it is ridiculous to have an attack that is a 30x multiplier.

Of course its ridiculous. With a 30x times multiplier in an attack, beginning of Z Goku (which was around 500 in power level) could fire off an attack that would reach 15.000 in power level. Freeza would be able to fire off an attack of 3.600.000.000 (120.000.000 x 30). And so on. That is ridiculous.

You say I continue to make mistakes but this is only because you didn't clearly specify it. You never made an attempt to explain how you saw the injured stated and uninjured state until now.

I didn't? Read my quote above of one of my first posts and say that with a straight face.

I failed because you never made any attempt to quantify how you saw the injured and uninjured state.

Same as above.

You never explained it clearly to be honest.

I'm pretty sure you are being really honest about it... Its not like you didn't actually read carefully what I wrote, right...?

Right... Like I said, I'm done. Whenever I talk with you apparently I start to talk some alternate language since you never get my points and I have to repeat myself a bunch of times simply because you don't get it, don't read carefully, don't see my points and invariably you start to spin off the conversation into endless discussion about it or about details about it instead of reading carefully and reflecting on what I mean. So, it clearly isn't worth it for me.

[Mattias_]

No, man. C'mon:

Jinzoningen #18 人造人間18号: 12,000,000
Jinzoningen #17 人造人間17号: 12,000,000

Tenshinhan 天津飯: 46,000 (in the BUU saga)

[Darkprince410]

No, man. C'mon:

Jinzoningen #18 人造人間18号: 12,000,000
Jinzoningen #17 人造人間17号: 12,000,000

Tenshinhan 天津飯: 46,000 (in the BUU saga)

I mentioned it in a different topic, but your numbers don't have any valid source to them. Freeza's battle power when he fought Ssj Goku was at least ten times that given the Daizenshuu's battle power entry for him, and #17 and #18 were vastly superior to even him. You're looking at around the range of 400 million or so given reasonable estimations, a far cry from the 12 million you have them at.

As for Tenshinhan, I would estimate that to be around his strength from when he left Kaiou's planet (using Goku's battle power increase as a template), and given his near constant training after, he's undoubtedly stronger than that come the Buu saga.