Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by TheGmGoken » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:47 pm

I hated BoG to be honest. I thought it was boring and the plot was just so non-entertaining for me. Keep in mind this is my opinion. I thought Beerus was a terrible character. Another ancient being with great power! :yawn: . Honestly it worked for Piccolo Daimao and I wasn't a fan of Boo's origin either(Both his new one and his old one). Hell I wasn't a fan of the Boo Arc which is funny because Goten is in that arc. Beerus personality was also imo quite boring too. He acted based of gag emotions something we already saw with Majin Boo and Broly quite frankly. Whis is tolerable. Beerus however :thumbdown: . Just a waste of character. I found BoG to be a waste of a movie as well. The trailers were mis-leading and the gags aren't even funny. Not at all. A-lot of characters didn't a lot of dialog. Most of it went to Trunks, Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Bulma.

Yo Son Goku and Friends Return was awesome IMO. Lots of fun gags that were actually funny and the plot while basic was great to watch unfold. Let's not forget Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks got the most screentime!

Episode of Bardock was another great one. Fun plot and great character screen-time for Bardock. I love the idea of Chilled and the original Planet Plant. Bardock being the first SSJ is kinda "Eh" to be honest but there are plently of awesome things in that OVA.

Dragonball Minus while wasn't a movie but a Jaco special chapter, was bad. It's was a pure superman rip off. I hate Superman so that made my hate for Minus go up either further.

Just me giving my opinion.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:03 am

This thread is blowing up more than I thought it ever would. I suppose it is a good thing, but I didn't want you guys to start flaming one another. I've said what I've wanted to say, but at the end of the day, I lose, because the majority rules.
VegettoEX wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:Are you suggesting that even though BOG is canon, I can make an argument that it is non canon?
A very valid argument for "this is the only canon that I accept" would be "the original manga as printed in the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump, as written/illustrated/conceived by Akira Toriyama, between 1984-1995".
That's being very selective with DB material. BOG was made by AT, the original author. And originally, that was the argument made for what was canon and what was not. It is why filler isn't considered canon as well as sometimes, GT. I can't use it against BOG.
KentalSSJ6 wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
I think you're still missing the point that an argument or belief being popular does not entail that it is valid or sound. That of course doesn't mean that it isn't valid or sound, but the appeal to an argument's popularity alone is no way to support it.
Are you suggesting that even though BOG is canon, I can make an argument that it is non canon?
There is no canon.
Yes there is.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:10 am

The movie was made by hundreds of individuals. It's creative success doesn't lie merely on Toriyama Akira, who didn't even write the final script.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Zephyr » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:23 am

i'mfuckingevil wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I think you're still missing the point that an argument or belief being popular does not entail that it is valid or sound. That of course doesn't mean that it isn't valid or sound, but the appeal to an argument's popularity alone is no way to support it.
Are you suggesting that even though BOG is canon, I can make an argument that it is non canon?
No. I'm saying that popular does not necessarily equate to accurate or correct. Godwin's Law time: Does the fact that the belief "the Jewish people are sub-human" was popular in Germany during certain point in time make that a rational, accurate, or correct belief?

I don't know why you're trying to drag something so far removed from what I was talking about into the conversation.
i'mfuckingevil wrote: BOG was made by AT, the original author.
What do you mean "made by"? A lot of work by a lot of different individuals went into the creation of the film that was Battle of Gods. Toriyama didn't even come up with the original idea or premise. On what criteria is something considered "made by" an individual?
i'mfuckingevil wrote:Yes there is.
I'd like to hear your reasoning from this. If you are abiding by the actual definition of the word canon, then no, Dragon Ball does not have a canon. I'm curious as to what your personal canon is, on which version of the source material you base it, and on which criteria you include and exclude supplementary material. After all, there sure isn't an official canon we can just quote, because there's no such statement to quote. Because of this, trying to apply the word "canon" to whatever you're trying to rationalize with these bases, inclusions, exclusions and the like, is a complete misuse of the term.

A canon is explicitly laid out by the rights holders and designated as such. It's not to be interpreted and extrapolated from a bunch of off-handed comments and quotes from a plethora of disjointed interviews and guidebook quotes separated by varying expanses of time and thought processes by the various rights holders.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:46 pm

Anything that made by (and by that I mean anything that came from, anything that was written by) the original author is canon.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:54 pm

i'mfuckingevil wrote:Anything that made by (and by that I mean anything that came from, anything that was written by) the original author is canon.
No, it's not. That's not what "canon" means.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Zephyr » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:44 pm

http://www.VegettoEX.com/blog/2011/12/2 ... cal-debate

"Canon" should be given an entry in the rumor guide.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by i'mfuckingevil » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:35 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:Anything that made by (and by that I mean anything that came from, anything that was written by) the original author is canon.
No, it's not. That's not what "canon" means.
I wasn't defining it but merely saying what it was in the context of DB.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Zephyr » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:39 pm

What it is in the context of DB is nonexistent.

I feel like the idea you're trying to convey here is "The Toriyama-concerned Continuity", which would be different than canon.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:59 pm

i'mfuckingevil wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
i'mfuckingevil wrote:Anything that made by (and by that I mean anything that came from, anything that was written by) the original author is canon.
No, it's not. That's not what "canon" means.
I wasn't defining it but merely saying what it was in the context of DB.
I'm sorry, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about. I'd suggest you listen to what the half dozen people who have been explaining this to you have said.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Kakacarrottop » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:11 am

Battle of Gods is about as canon as the anime fillers and movies. Yes Toriyama was involved but so were hundreds of other people at Toei. To suggest Toriyama is completely responsible for Battle of Gods and no one else had any other involvement in the story is ignorant. BOG also contradicts GT on a variety of levels (mainly due to the whole Super Saiyan God thing), and to me GT is a whole lot more canon than BOG since it's a whole freaking anime series (approved by Toriyama) not just some one off cash-grab movie made years after the series ended.

The original manga will always be the only true canon, just like the original Star Wars films will always be the only true canon in the Star Wars world. The only things we can say certainly happened in the main timeline DB world are the things that happened in the manga. Anything else that happened in the anime series, movies, video games etc is open to interpretation regarding if it is canon.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by B » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:46 am

Kakacarrottop wrote:GT is a whole lot more canon than BOG since it's a whole freaking anime series (approved by Toriyama) not just some one off cash-grab movie made years after the series ended.
GT is no less a cash grab than literally any other piece of DB work. It was made because Toei had no more source material to pull from, but Dragon Ball still had money to be wrung out of it. Toriyama has never been a guarded author, so to say he approved GT's creation as some sort of stamp of approval of its quality is making all sorts of assumptions. He didn't write a single thing for GT. At that point, he was burned out from weekly deadlines.

Also, Battle of Gods is not a "one-off" production, as Revival of F is a direct sequel featuring the principal characters of that movie, Beers and Whis.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by dae428 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:20 am

Exactly. For example, in BOG, Vegeta only cares since it really disrupts his life. Even the thing with Bulma, it's not that he cares for her safety, it's more of an ego thing; in other words, can he be more of a man than the provoker. If Beerus offered something Vegeta just couldn't refuse, and it was evil, mean, dirty, and nasty, and Vegeta could do it knowing that he could stop the likes of Goku and friends, he WOULD DO IT. No question about it.

If Goku weren't around, and he had such an opportunity, he'd take it. It didn't happen in the time of peace since nothing was offered to him, thus, it was more rewarding for him to stay with Bulma where he is clothed, fed, has a place to train etc. If he was offered something like what Majin magic gave him, a new level of power for example but had to murder everyone on earth to attain it, he would take it and leave. He stayed with Freeza because it benefitted him, I think Vegeta even says that, and when given the chance, he took the high road (and believed he was a SSJ strong enough to kill Freeza and wander the universe as the most powerful being; JUST AS HE STATED IN THE SAIYAN ARC). Vegeta has never changed that much, and is the same POS he was from the start to the end.
You say it was an ego man thing for Vegeta that he fought against Beerus, but wasn't he acting like a fool and disgracing himself earlier in order to protect the Earth? Also what exactly makes you say he would do any of the things you've stated he would? I've already given my whole majin explanation and he's not done nor shown any tendency of going back to the whole do whatever just benefits me.
That's not it, just like with Cell and Freeza, once he is overpowered, he just gives up (and maybe has one last act of defiance, such as the final flash or his huge barrage against Freeza).


Then what exactly was the point of his little speech at the end. He knew he was going to die, but he still did his best to destroy Majin Boo in order to save his family who would he would have no use for after death. Why not go for some random other attack? He explicitly blew himself because he wanted to completely annihilate Majin Boo off the face of the earth. When he battled against Freeza and knew he was no match, he literally started crying and gave up. Later on in the battle against Cell he apologized to Gohan, which is what he typically would never do given his arrogance. But you see that he did change a bit in that he distracted Cell with a ki blast in order as a last ditch effort to do something. (By the way I'm not saying this makes him necessarily good, but I am trying to show that has changed to some degree) When battling against Kid Boo he accepts that Goku is better than him and serves as a distraction using every ounce of his energy to distract Kid Boo from the Spirit Bomb to the point where he couldn't move any more. Later on, he insists that Goku throw the Spirit Bomb at Kid Boo even with him in the blast radius in order to save the universe. In Battle of Gods he becomes angry and despite knowing he's no match for Beerus does everything he can to stop him even going so far as to practically plead to him to stop.
Nothing indicates he wouldn't kill for pleasure. Once he benefits from it, he'd do it. Earth is his home, he has nowhere to go, and all the best fights happen there. Why would he destroy that opportunity? But when everything went to hell in the Buu arc, he was totally fine with throwing Earth away since it wasn't needed for him in that instance. And he killed people to prove that point.
I've mentioned this before. This was a Vegeta in self-denial, who couldn't accept that he had changed and so he allowed himself to fall under Babidi's spell to unlock the darkness inside of him that he had lost.

I agree, that was awful. I cringed and shook my head in theatres when I saw that. It is also very non-Dragonball. The holy water, the room of spirit and time, heaven, King Kai, gravity training, that is cool! A really cheesy, anime stereotype ritual, that's not cool. That's what non-anime fans point to why they think anime is dumb haha. I hated that scene.
C'mon it wasn't that bad! Yuk yuk yuk! :D But Dragon Ball has always had its fair share of super ridiculous power ups. The Super God water, the Zenkai boost, heck Gohan's been powered up like three times already! Hey at least it wasn't the power of friendship! :mrgreen:
Mass murder, selfishness, sociopathic tendencies, no moral outlook, non-sympathetic. Vegeta is all of those. Look how he treated Gohan for not staying strong; it's nearly identical to how Vegeta was getting annoyed at Nappa looking weak in front of the enemy because it makes himself, Vegeta, look bad.
Honestly I feel like these are too strong terms to be representing Vegeta. He didn't really say anything to Gohan until he purposely wanted to get Babidi's attention. Vegeta just saw him as a slacker which of course he didn't like but that was really the extent of it. He never punched or kicked Gohan or anything after Cell anyways. Even when Goku was dead, we never see Vegeta attempting to fight against Gohan. I honestly feel, based on your definition, that evil is too strong a word for Vegeta. Sure he's selfish, but evil especially from what we've seen of him currently? I'd say not. He hasn't murdered any people in a while excluding the Majin incident. He's selfish, but then again so is Goku. His morals... Hmmm... Well honestly, I can't say I've ever had the chance to ever peer into the mind of Vegeta, but he clearly does have a sense of right and wrong. As for being non-sympathetic, the guy isn't really the type to express himself. Given his character of being gruff and impersonal I think its really more a certain character trait than an indication of evil for his case.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by hleV » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:50 am

dae428 wrote:He hasn't murdered any people in a while excluding the Majin incident.
Sure, let's exclude him killing 200+ innocents just to get Goku to fight him. He's a good person.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Dbzk1999 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:00 am

Kakacarrottop wrote: BOG also contradicts GT on a variety of levels (mainly due to the whole Super Saiyan God thing), and to me GT is a whole lot more canon than BOG since it's a whole freaking anime series (approved by Toriyama) not just some one off cash-grab movie made years after the series ended.
So GT (the series with villains in Hell, and androids who can be sensed) is more canonical than a movie that features neither of those? I do find it funny though how you're saying that as if GT WASN'T a cash grab.

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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:02 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:So GT (the series with villains in Hell, and androids who can be sensed) is more canonical than a movie that features neither of those? I do find it funny though how you're saying that as if GT WASN'T a cash grab.
If you want to talk about contradictions inherently making something more or less canonical, the manga cannot be canonical to itself. It features a wish that is made in less than a year's time, which cannot happen (only about eight months pass between Oolong's wish for panties and the start of the Red Ribbon Army arc).

The existence of in-universe contradictions cannot be the sole basis for a canonical assessment when it comes to Dragon Ball. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the source material in its entirety and a lack of understanding as to how the entire product was conceived.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by ParkerAL » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:23 pm

Yeah, contradictory material in Dragon Ball can really only be judged by its degree of lameness. Much of the contradictions in the manga at least build towards cool new scenarios, like the aforementioned Red Ribbon Army arc. Most of the contradictions in GT on the other hand introduce nothing but stupidity to the story, and this is coming from someone who actually likes the series (as a non-canonical what-if scenario, but still).
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:47 pm

If Toriyama had nothing to do with BOG then Beerus would have been a boring and generic villain with no personality to him much like how Super Yi Xing Long, Bojack, Broli and Hatchiyack were in my opinion. When it comes to making original villains without Toriyama's help, I feel like Toei sucks at it most of the time. Characters like Janemba was cool, but he didn't have much personality and depth to him. They just rehash old ideas (Lord Slug, Metal Coola, Bebi and Super 13) or making something that is boring and generic.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Dbzk1999 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:50 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:So GT (the series with villains in Hell, and androids who can be sensed) is more canonical than a movie that features neither of those? I do find it funny though how you're saying that as if GT WASN'T a cash grab.
If you want to talk about contradictions inherently making something more or less canonical, the manga cannot be canonical to itself. It features a wish that is made in less than a year's time, which cannot happen (only about eight months pass between Oolong's wish for panties and the start of the Red Ribbon Army arc).

The existence of in-universe contradictions cannot be the sole basis for a canonical assessment when it comes to Dragon Ball. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the source material in its entirety and a lack of understanding as to how the entire product was conceived.
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Re: Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:50 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:They just rehash old ideas (Lord Slug, Metal Coola and Super 13) or making something that is boring and generic.
You know, people always say that, but Cooler, at least, isn't really a rehash of anything besides being Freeza's brother. His goals and motivations are both different, especially in M6. I'm not really sure what people claim that Metal Cooler is ripping off of anyway, since he's nothing like Freeza by that point, and the only thing he has in common with the Androids is that he's a machine.
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