Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Bullza]

Canon to what?

Toriyama's story.

Fukkatsu no F doesn't occur in the comic, therefore...it doesn't occur in the comic. It has no baring on the original comic at all.

So? It not occurring in the comic doesn't mean it can't be canon. Events can still be canon across different forms of media. The Last Naruto movie is canon to the comic and the Last Naruto prequel novel is canon with that. There's comics that are canon to movies and games that are canon to movies.

Battle of Gods still took place within the events of the comic and is canon. This movie is a continuation of that movie and also canon.Then there's Fusion Reborn which isn't canon.

Simple.

[VegettoEX]

Battle of Gods still took place within the events of the comic and is canon. This movie is a continuation of that movie and also canon.Then there's Fusion Reborn which isn't canon.

Simple.

Not if your definition of "canon" is "conceived by and written/illustrated exclusively by Akira Toriyama"... or even more specific than that, "... within the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump between 1984 and 1995."

This conversation is constant and repetitive, and I'm not sure the giant feature I'm working on is even enough to quell it.

[Chuquita]

https://twitter.com/shoko55mmts/status/ ... 7291504641 looks like it says "Character Design" and cites a name at the top. If that is what it is, whose name is that?

EDIT: Half-nevermind(?) I think that's Yamamuro; I just checked it against the flyer from the summer and the kanji matches. I actually don't think it says anything new there now. ^^; (Or maybe it does.)

Is that the poster that comes with this week's Saikyo Jump though?

[Bullza]

You'd have to be a fool to have such a ridiculously specific definition in the first place.

[Mewzard]

I have a simple enough rule in place. If Toriyama is directly responsible for that particular version of the story (by that I mean as writer, not someone adapting his work or ideas), it connects to the Dragon Ball series, and Toriyama doesn't directly say it's not canon, then it's canon.

That factors in what he writes (the manga, BoG, F) without counting adaptations (the anime, other movies, GT), factors in stuff not directly called Dragon Ball but tying into it (Jaco), but also gives room if Toriyama decides something he did doesn't work (if he retcons something out of continuity; BoG on seems like it could retcon the DBO timeline out, but Toriyama could just modify it later on).

Of course, I give Toriyama full authority to determine something in the franchise he didn't do as canon if he'd ever feel like doing so (I doubt it, but I'm willing to negotiate this a little for the creator).

Not too different from how I count the Saint Seiya canon really, given there are at least four spin-off manga not done by Masami Kurumada (Saint Seiya: Episode G, Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas, Saint Seiya: Saintia Shou, and the Saint Seiya: Omega manga), the original anime, the Hades and LC OVAs, the fifth movie which was supposed to be canon but after Toei botched it he retconned it out of existence with his new manga Saint Seiya: Next Dimension, and the original stuff like Saint Seiya: Omega and the movie Legend of Sanctuary (We'll see what canon status Saint Seiya: Soul of Gold has, but I doubt Kuru's working with Toei on it).

As for something discussed earlier: Anime=cartoons, manga=comics. It's fine to like cartoons and comics.

As for more specific movie stuff...on the matter of power levels, I think he has to do them if even briefly. You don't bring back the scouter and not use it even once. It may bring back some arguments, but it also would make some parts of the fandom happy, and I think they deserve their moment of entertainment as much as those uninterested do with the rest of the movie.

I do hope we learn more about the DB Multiverse, and learn what Freeza's afterlife was like. I do wonder if Toriyama would bring back Future Trunks older for this, just to tie into Freeza's death. Would be interesting to find out if anything happened to his Earth post-Cell.

[JulieYBM]

https://twitter.com/shoko55mmts/status/ ... 7291504641 looks like it says "Character Design" and cites a name at the top. If that is what it is, whose name is that?

EDIT: Half-nevermind(?) I think that's Yamamuro; I just checked it against the flyer from the summer and the kanji matches. I actually don't think it says anything new there now. ^^; (Or maybe it does.)

Is that the poster that comes with this week's Saikyo Jump though?

If it were Yamamuro the 山 (yama) would be first, not second. Now, what does that mean the first kanji is? 'Tori'!

Toriyama is being credited with 'character designs' in these promotional materials but there is no way in Hell his designs are being used as-is. They'll be adapted into models fit for animation.

[Kamiccolo9]

You'd have to be a fool to have such a ridiculously specific definition in the first place.

And who draws the line of what's "too specific?" You? Because the author doesn't seem to care.

[Chuquita]

https://twitter.com/shoko55mmts/status/ ... 7291504641 looks like it says "Character Design" and cites a name at the top. If that is what it is, whose name is that?

EDIT: Half-nevermind(?) I think that's Yamamuro; I just checked it against the flyer from the summer and the kanji matches. I actually don't think it says anything new there now. ^^; (Or maybe it does.)

Is that the poster that comes with this week's Saikyo Jump though?

If it were Yamamuro the 山 (yama) would be first, not second. Now, what does that mean the first kanji is? 'Tori'!

Toriyama is being credited with 'character designs' in these promotional materials but there is no way in Hell his designs are being used as-is. They'll be adapted into models fit for animation.

Understood. Learning new languages is a long process.
I look forward to eventually seeing Toriyama's character art for F in whichever book or magazine they most likely get collected into.

Still hoping for some type of update from somewhere (with no distinct place) this week.

Clarification on why Kuririn is bald, why Gohan's hair/eyes are like that, and where Trunks and Goten are would be really helpful. TuT

[bleed0range]

I personally define "canon" as anything Toriyama was involved in that he considers a "continuation of the manga." I believe he said this of Yo! Son Goku, BOG and now Fukkatsu no F. Meaning that he considers Yo! Son Goku's story the point at which he picked up where he had left off in the manga. So after Buu, Abo & Cado visit with Vegeta's brother... who is then referenced again in BOG and then this new film is a continuation of BOG. I'd consider filler such as the Bardock special also canon because of Toriyama working that into his own works because he liked it.

I don't consider just anything Toriyama had involvement with as canon, personally. Because a creator of any series will likely have some involvement in all products/ventures/etc. of a franchise they're responsible for creating, even if it's on a tiny level. We all know the original 13 movies do not really fit in to the manga/anime, except for a few lucky occurrences where it happens to. So I'd say none of those really count.

I mean, that's how I view it. So I'd consider this film canon. Well, my personal canon anyway haha. Because I've seen these last few specials over the past several years that Toriyama has worked on as basically his way of continuing the story he was telling in the manga. Just without actually adding to the manga or creating a new television series.

[Bullza]

And who draws the line of what's "too specific?" You? Because the author doesn't seem to care.

He already made his comment on them in that he see's them as happening in a different dimension AKA they didn't happen in his story AKA they're not canon. Someone seemed to care enough that when Battle of Gods movie was being made they went out of their way to specifically point out this particular movie was a part of the official history AKA canon.

If someone only want's to consider what happens in the manga to be canon then so be it but Battle of Gods is still canon regardless whether they like it or not and Fusion Reborn and the others aren't.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I personally define "canon" as anything Toriyama was involved in that he considers a "continuation of the manga." I believe he said this of Yo! Son Goku, BOG and now Fukkatsu no F. Meaning that he considers Yo! Son Goku's story the point at which he picked up where he had left off in the manga. So after Buu, Abo & Cado visit with Vegeta's brother... who is then referenced again in BOG and then this new film is a continuation of BOG. I'd consider filler such as the Bardock special also canon because of Toriyama working that into his own works because he liked it.

How do you rectify this with Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and Dragon Ball —? Since Toriyama ignores all previously established Bardock material and does his own thing.
Also, Battle of Gods having Beerus sleep for 39 years and planet Vegeta blow being blown up after he went to sleep, which lines up with Jaco.

[hleV]

I suppose if you go by Toriyama-canon (stuff made by Toriyama which supposedly ties into the manga continuity), then you'd go with the actual things Toriyama wrote and not how Toei interpreted and portrayed them in the anime. He did "write the story as though the manga continued", but does BOG portray that story as well as it should? We never know, so there's no reason to take JSAT/BOG/ROF at face value. There's little reason not to, too, so it's a matter of preference.

[Blade]

I think for the casual American Dragonball Z fan with little concept 'Toriyama Dragonball' as opposed to 'Toei Dragonball', it may be difficult to reconcile the revival of Freeza, given that, including Movie 12 and GT, it's been done twice.

It's easy to forget that sometimes, as especially here on Kanzenshuu, we tend to seperate Toriyama's work directly from anything that's contrived from it, and a lot of the casual American fans are unlikey to have even read the Manga.

On the flipside of that, how many casual fans would even be aware that Freeza had those cameos in movie 12 or GT? I'm sure there's loads of people in the US who aren't too familiar with anything outside of the Z TV series.

I dunno, I think that most fans who watched Dragonball Z during its original U.S broadcast have, at the very least, a working (but perhaps garbled) knowledge of GT in part owing to Funimation's choice to modify the order in which it was broadcast. Whilst it's true that the Dragonball Z boom reached its apex before GT aired in America, in terms of TV rating comparisons from the tail end of Z to the start of GT, it's apparent that most of the viewership, at least initially, migrated from Z to GT.

[VegettoEX]

You'd have to be a fool to have such a ridiculously specific definition in the first place.

You're not exactly in a position to be throwing around backhanded insults. If you value any amount of time and information you get from having access to this website, I'd recommend reevaluating how you want to respond one more time before making additional posts.

[Low Tone G]

I think we can not speak about a canon of Dragon Ball, because the Other World Tournament doesn't occur in the manga, still it has some aspects which represent Toriyama's concept about the Dragon Ball Universe as a ball, Hell and Heaven and Snake way, and such. So I we can speak only about different continuities, and the most important is the original creator's continuity. Now, the BOG and the ROF are the ones which can be considered continuities to the original manga without too much problems, I'm not sure about the JSATS, but it probably counts too.

[sintzu]

Toriyama said he considers Gt a side story and the original movies as stories that happened in a different dimension from the manga's story so it's safe to say they aren't canon to the manga,2008 OVA and the 2 movies he's worked on.

[Cetra]

Side story is not equal non canonical. As well as original author comments aren't the only rightful canonical comments when it comes to law about a franchise owned by multiple people. That and the fact that Akira Toriyama does not actually take is comments as serious about "only I can decide" as some people do, some of his comments are 20 years old and express an opinion that has been changed since then if not even meant to be as serious as some believe or at least not meant the way people think.

[VegettoEX]

Per some requests and my own feelings - despite contributing to what I'm about to suggest otherwise about! - I would kindly request that these larger canonical discussions please be relegated to their own threads. Unless something very specifically concerns this updated movie, these conversations can stand on their own. There are TONS of eyes on this thread (from those actively participating and others simply passively watching as unregistered members), and it would massively help keep things organized if the conversation could be held in check.

I will be (and am asking the rest of the moderation staff to be) removing posts that do not stick with this request from here on out.

Please understand. Thank you!

[Low Tone G]

Did anyone think about why did Toriyama come up with this new story so early? I mean it might be that this film introduces a third one, I can not believe that Frieza to be a final villain, I can imagine that this is the beginning of the end.

[Marco Polo]

Did anyone think about why did Toriyama come up with this new story so early? I mean it might be that this film introduces a third one, I can not believe that Freeza to be a final villain, I can imagine that this is the beginning of the end.

Well if this film is successful there will obviously be another one. I don't see why either Toei or Toriyama would stop making them.