Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

[dae428]

Maybe it's just me, but I've always found it a bit harder to believe that the entire race of Saiyans was evil anyway. I mean, an entire race of people that's nothing but evil, not one single solitary member of said race having any kind of empathy for others or anything? That's pretty unrealistic (though yes, I realize we're talking about a universe populated by people named after foods and undergarments amongst other things). So while I admit I never put much thought into it before Table, Gine, or Super Saiyan God came around, the idea that there used to be some naturally good, or at least less brutal, Saiyans? I can roll with that.'

It makes perfect sense that all sayians would be inherently evil. They're born and bred to kill. They're a freaking warrior race, killing and conquering planets was all they did, it's all they know. It doesn't make sense that there would be kind hearted people on that planet, I mean, how would an entire group of sayians even become pure hearted treehugging losers? It took a drop on the head to make Goku who he is now, I just can't get behind this. As for the sayians that can't fight, from what was shown in the manga and anime, characters like Gine and Tarble would not have been tolerated by the Sayians or Freeza. Sayians have pride in their abilities and heritage, they wouldn't let these people exist to shit all over that.

Going off of what Gyt Kaliba was saying prior, Tarble and Gine were anomalies to begin with. Gine was retired to being a meat butcher because Saiyans gotta eat and Tarble was pretty much abandoned to the far reaches of space where it could've easily be assumed he was killed. Think about Zim from Invader Zim. Gine still had some use so she was allowed to live as a butcher. Tarble was an embarrassment so he was sent of to some unknown place where he was probably meant to either die or show that he wasn't completely worthless. As for there being no chances of six good Saiyans. C'mon man. Its totally feasible even in the scenario of the Saiyans that you've presented. I know that the population of the Saiyans probably wasn't all that large but still even if there were only like 100 of them the chances of all them being straight up evil mofos is just ridiculous.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Maybe it's just me, but I've always found it a bit harder to believe that the entire race of Saiyans was evil anyway. I mean, an entire race of people that's nothing but evil, not one single solitary member of said race having any kind of empathy for others or anything? That's pretty unrealistic (though yes, I realize we're talking about a universe populated by people named after foods and undergarments amongst other things). So while I admit I never put much thought into it before Table, Gine, or Super Saiyan God came around, the idea that there used to be some naturally good, or at least less brutal, Saiyans? I can roll with that.'

It makes perfect sense that all sayians would be inherently evil. They're born and bred to kill. They're a freaking warrior race, killing and conquering planets was all they did, it's all they know. It doesn't make sense that there would be kind hearted people on that planet, I mean, how would an entire group of sayians even become pure hearted treehugging losers? It took a drop on the head to make Goku who he is now, I just can't get behind this. As for the sayians that can't fight, from what was shown in the manga and anime, characters like Gine and Tarble would not have been tolerated by the Sayians or Freeza. Sayians have pride in their abilities and heritage, they wouldn't let these people exist to shit all over that.

Saiyans are a warrior race who do fighting, no? Then why is hard to believe that some may have hit their head too? From the countless fights they have had, are you telling me none of them got hit on the head? Besides, some may have saw sense without hitting there head, for example, X Saiyan kills someone, that someone's child starts crying due to the lost a loved one, this then touches X Saiyans heart and makes him realize what they're doing is wrong, X Saiyan then tries and successfully convinces his pack, boom you now have 6 Saiyans with "pure" intentions. It really isn't hard to imagine a similar scenario going down, really. Also to baring in mind, that this probably happened when the Saiyan race was it's infancy meaning that there was no legacy set up before, therefore had the Original Super Saiyan God had enough time then maybe the Saiyans wouldn't have been what they were.

[dae428]

Also please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the whole Super Saiyan God event happen before it was established that the Sayains were an "evil" warrior race? So we can assume that the good Saiyans were eliminated by the bad Saiyans. Eventually the bad Saiyans became the ones to establish the norms of being a Saiyan.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Also please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the whole Super Saiyan God event happen before it was established that the Sayains were an "evil" warrior race? So we can assume that the good Saiyans were eliminated by the bad Saiyans. Eventually the bad Saiyans became the ones to establish the norms of being a Saiyan.

In the dub, Shenny says "long time ago", so I assume we can assume it took place when the Saiyans were still on training wheels.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Also please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the whole Super Saiyan God event happen before it was established that the Sayains were an "evil" warrior race? So we can assume that the good Saiyans were eliminated by the bad Saiyans. Eventually the bad Saiyans became the ones to establish the norms of being a Saiyan.

Yup, and that's exactly what I meant about it almost being a morbid joke. 'There were good Saiyans...they all died.'

That and let's face it - if Vegeta, the same Vegeta that didn't give a crap about the death of Raditz, personally killed Nappa, was going to kill Goku and Gohan, and leave himself as the last living Saiyan, can turn good, then I'd say it's not so unbelievable that other Saiyans could possibly have changed as well.

[Colonel Silver]

You think the tears of a child would make sayians like Raditz, Nappa, Bardock's elite or old Vegeta have a change of heart? Nope, That kid would get blasted to ash along with their planet, just another notch on their belt. All sayians are taught to be this way and they don't share the same morality as humans. The lore up until recent years supported this. Bardock, Vegeta, and Goku had went through a series of extreme events that changed their outlooks on life. And even then Vegeta had such a hard time being a good guy. It's not about the rock, man. Sayians were portrayed as badass evil space pirates and I refuse to accept any other portrayal... on the grounds of vague memories and childhood nostalgia.

And the whole origin story for SSG, imo, is absolutely freaking terrible regardless of my opinion on the sayians. I just don't like the new stuff. It doesn't feel like a natural progression... I can't really put it into words, I'm not really that articulate.

Forgive for editing this post so many times, I'm on a cellphone, made a crapload of errors and I don't want to clutter the thread with my posts.

[Zephyr]

Sayians were portrayed as badass space pirates and I refuse to accept any other portrayal... on the grounds of vague memories and childhood nostalgia.

But they're still badass space pirates. Only, now they're not one-dimensional badass space pirates.

[Gyt Kaliba]

A majority of them were 'badass space pirates' though. We're talking like less than 1% of them that were ranging anywhere from 'decent' like Bardock actually seeming to care about his comrades and his race, to 'somewhat not homocidal' like Table and Gine who didn't even like to fight nor were they very good at it, but presumably didn't seem to mind at all that the rest of their race did such things. How does that in any way take away from the fact that most of the Saiyans really were irredeemably evil? To me all it shows is a more realistic outlook on a fictional race.

[Hellspawn28]

I don't mind that there was good saiyans since I don't believe that not all of them were mericless and blood thirsty. Evil can not exist without good in my opinion. Things would feel out of balance if there is all evil and no good. I feel saiyans no different from humans since humans can be mericless and blood thirsty while you have some are good. I think the idea of a group of saiyans who wanted good instead of having evil on the Planet Vegeta a cool idea.

[Colonel Silver]

A majority of them were 'badass space pirates' though. We're talking like less than 1% of them that were ranging anywhere from 'decent' like Bardock actually seeming to care about his comrades and his race, to 'somewhat not homocidal' like Table and Gine who didn't even like to fight nor were they very good at it, but presumably didn't seem to mind at all that the rest of their race did such things. How does that in any way take away from the fact that most of the Saiyans really were irredeemably evil? To me all it shows is a more realistic outlook on a fictional race.

It doesn't take away much at all, I guess. Errm... maybe I am flipping over absolutely fucking nothing. Oops...

[Lord Beerus]

Sayians were portrayed as badass space pirates and I refuse to accept any other portrayal... on the grounds of vague memories and childhood nostalgia.

But they're still badass space pirates. Only, now they're not one-dimensional badass space pirates.

This. The whole concept of good Saiyans battling bad Saiyans has opened so many avenues to travel in as far the history of race is concerned. As far we know there was a Saiyan Civil War that occurred that history seemed intent on keeping a secret until Shenlong essentially spilled the beans in BOG. So much more can now be done to develop the Saiyan race beyond "We're blood knights... just because!"

[Rocketman]

It's worth remembering that both Nappa and Radits showed loyalty to their family/comrades/underlings, and Nappa was completely surprised when Vegeta killed him.

[Gyt Kaliba]

It doesn't take away much at all, I guess. Errm... maybe I am flipping over absolutely fucking nothing. Oops...

Hope my statements weren't too harsh, 'cuz I'm not trying to undermine your opinion: If it really doesn't sit well with you, then that's just as valid and worth mentioning. But it just merits some further thinking on if it really is worth flipping out over or not, that's all I'm saying. Because for me, at least, it really isn't.

It's worth remembering that both Nappa and Radits showed loyalty to their family/comrades/underlings, and Nappa was completely surprised when Vegeta killed him.

Exactly. Raditz was willing to kill Gohan and Goku when it came down to it, but he didn't want to at first; he found the idea of them joining him much more preferable. Nappa wanted to wish Raditz back, though got over it fairly quickly when Vegeta dismissed the idea, and was still surprised that Vegeta would turn on him like that.

[Colonel Silver]

It doesn't take away much at all, I guess. Errm... maybe I am flipping over absolutely fucking nothing. Oops...

Hope my statements weren't too harsh, 'cuz I'm not trying to undermine your opinion: If it really doesn't sit well with you, then that's just as valid and worth mentioning. But it just merits some further thinking on if it really is worth flipping out over or not, that's all I'm saying. Because for me, at least, it really isn't.

It's worth remembering that both Nappa and Radits showed loyalty to their family/comrades/underlings, and Nappa was completely surprised when Vegeta killed him.

Exactly. Raditz was willing to kill Gohan and Goku when it came down to it, but he didn't want to at first; he found the idea of them joining him much more preferable. Nappa wanted to wish Raditz back, though got over it fairly quickly when Vegeta dismissed the idea, and was still surprised that Vegeta would turn on him like that.

Nah, it was hyperbole don't worry about it. I wasn't really flipping out, your post just made me realize it was a pointless thing to care about. It's not like all the sayians are sniffing daisies now. It doesn't effect much after all, their fictional reputation is still intact.

[Kakacarrottop]

Maybe it's just me, but I've always found it a bit harder to believe that the entire race of Saiyans was evil anyway. I mean, an entire race of people that's nothing but evil, not one single solitary member of said race having any kind of empathy for others or anything? That's pretty unrealistic (though yes, I realize we're talking about a universe populated by people named after foods and undergarments amongst other things). So while I admit I never put much thought into it before Table, Gine, or Super Saiyan God came around, the idea that there used to be some naturally good, or at least less brutal, Saiyans? I can roll with that.'

It makes perfect sense that all sayians would be inherently evil. They're born and bred to kill. They're a freaking warrior race, killing and conquering planets was all they did, it's all they know. It doesn't make sense that there would be kind hearted people on that planet, I mean, how would an entire group of sayians even become pure hearted treehugging losers? It took a drop on the head to make Goku who he is now, I just can't get behind this. As for the sayians that can't fight, from what was shown in the manga and anime, characters like Gine and Tarble would not have been tolerated by the Sayians or Freeza. Sayians have pride in their abilities and heritage, they wouldn't let these people exist to shit all over that.

Well Gine is probably an exception since she's female. The only non-tertiary female Saiyan characters ever shown in the anime/manga are her and Fasha as well as the human hybrids Pan and Bulla. For all we know they could be a lot less ruthless than the males, with females like Fasha being possible exceptions. Vegeta's mother who is never shown or heard from in any official works is also probably a Gine like character, which would explain why Tarble is nothing like Vegeta or King Vegeta.

[Saiga]

The problem with Gine, Tarble and Minus Bardock is that the good Saiyans are starting to outnumber the evil Saiyans we see. We just haven't seen enough of Saiyans as individuals for the multiple good Saiyans to look like they're the exception. They make up a decent percentage of the Saiyans we see - and if you ignore stuff that Toriyama had no involvement in, they outnumber the evil Saiyans.

Further, we haven't gotten any new evil Saiyans since Broli. All the new Saiyans we've been introduced to have been unique.

[Hellspawn28]

Evil Saiyans are over done in my opinion. Tullece and Broli were never that great to begin with in my opinion.

[Eire]

Maybe it's just me, but I've always found it a bit harder to believe that the entire race of Saiyans was evil anyway. I mean, an entire race of people that's nothing but evil, not one single solitary member of said race having any kind of empathy for others or anything? That's pretty unrealistic (though yes, I realize we're talking about a universe populated by people named after foods and undergarments amongst other things). So while I admit I never put much thought into it before Table, Gine, or Super Saiyan God came around, the idea that there used to be some naturally good, or at least less brutal, Saiyans? I can roll with that.'

It makes perfect sense that all sayians would be inherently evil. They're born and bred to kill. They're a freaking warrior race, killing and conquering planets was all they did, it's all they know. It doesn't make sense that there would be kind hearted people on that planet, I mean, how would an entire group of sayians even become pure hearted treehugging losers? It took a drop on the head to make Goku who he is now, I just can't get behind this. As for the sayians that can't fight, from what was shown in the manga and anime, characters like Gine and Tarble would not have been tolerated by the Sayians or Freeza. Sayians have pride in their abilities and heritage, they wouldn't let these people exist to shit all over that.

Well Gine is probably an exception since she's female. The only non-tertiary female Saiyan characters ever shown in the anime/manga are her and Selypa as well as the human hybrids Pan and Bulla. For all we know they could be a lot less ruthless than the males, with females like Selypa being possible exceptions. Vegeta's mother who is never shown or heard from in any official works is also probably a Gine like character, which would explain why Tarble is nothing like Vegeta or King Vegeta.

Oh yes, because our upbringing and life has nothing to do with our character. It's inherited and imprinted in the shape of heart, there's no way anything could influence it and we give it to our children untouched in genes. The fact that two of characters you mentioned were raised on Earth has nothing to do with their characters. The only logical flaw I see in this understanding is why Vegeta ended like he is, since you imply that his mother was sweet and gentle Disney Princess. Because you know, female genes prevent them from being ruthless- probably those located to ones that forbids them to become surgeons.

"Sayians turning good because they saw children crying"- OMG, you know that it doesn't work that way, even for humans? Especially if you were trained, not drafted.

"Sayians are no more one-dimensional"- the problem is that they are. They suddenly turn to think with XXI century First World morals. Downton Abbey I said. They wouldn't have been added extra dimensions have they been shown having own culture with traits completely different from ours. Not turned around, but different in some aspects. Romans I mentioned before practised infanticide (ok, exposition), defined their sexuality according to the role in intercourse, gave women men's rights when she gave birth to at least 4 children and based human rights on belonging to their own nation. And that's culture we can be familiar with, we have tons of others that from our POV had blue and orange morality. But it apprently would require more planning than Toriyama want and can do.

[Zephyr]

"Sayians are no more one-dimensional"- the problem is that they are.

My point is that they have more depth to them as a people. You can complain about the execution (one could complain about a majority of the execution of ideas in this series), but that wasn't my point. I'll take: "these people are generally pure evil and heartless, but exceptions exist!" over "these people are all pure evil and heartless!" any day.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'll take: "these people are generally pure evil and heartless, but exceptions exist!" over "these people are all pure evil and heartless!" any day.

And at the end of the day, that's where I stand as well. Even in Animorphs (yes, I realize, I'm probably the only one here who even remembers that series), the parasitic race of Yeerks were shown to have a good handful of less evil to actually pretty good people in their ranks, and they were the main and biggest threat that series ever had. And just like with the Saiyans, this wasn't discovered for quite a good way into the franchise's storyline. This all just served to make the race more believable.