Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not sure what there is to debate on the Mecha Freeza situation. He says that he's powered up. He's the one best qualified to make that statement. Gohan's quote doesn't even contradict it, it just says that he can get stronger, to which my reply would be "duh."

[Galan007]

Mecha Freeza likely did receive a power up of some kind(as he personally mentioned)... We just never got to see it, imo. Gohan's quote tells us that he had personally sensed a much higher level of ki from Freeza on Namek, which means Freeza was still heavily suppressed when he arrived on earth.

Yamcha: "Freeza's chi... He's THAT powerful..?"
Gohan: "This is nothing... He gets way stronger than this"

And since it was never shown/stated that Freeza increased his power at all prior to encountering Trunks, then it is perfectly logical to assume he was still suppressed when Trunks killed him, imo. Tbh, Freeza being suppressed makes the most sense when I start thinking about it. I mean, we know he's not going to cruise around at 100% power, because it takes a massive physical toll on his body--and given his small/petite physical appearance when he arrived on earth, along with the fact that there were no legitimate threats to him on the planet(that he was aware of, at least), Freeza was likely tapping between 3%-50% of his power, and only intended to kick it up beyond that if need be(ie. when Goku arrived on earth.)

[RandomGuy96]

He was probably using 70% when he 'fought' Trunks. That's the highest percentage we saw him use without bulking up.

[Super SaiyaJon]

I was surprised at this idea at first, but when I thought about it, it made perfect sense that the base Goku couldn't beat 100% Freeza. Consider the fact that he fights all of his opponents with transformations that increase his power up to 400 times his base. I don't believe any villains Goku beat were over 400 times as strong as Freeza. If he were to beat a villain that was over 400 times stronger than Freeza, then I would change my mind.

[Galan007]

He was probably using 70% when he 'fought' Trunks. That's the highest percentage we saw him use without bulking up.

Given Freeza's physical appearance, I agree that he could have been using up to 70% of his power--but personally, I think he was using less than that. After all, the most powerful being Freeza would've planned on encountering(sans Goku), was Vegeta--of whom he had easily slain on Namek while using only 3% of his power. With that knowledge, coupled with him believing Goku was still hours away, showing up at 70% power may have been a bit overkill... Even for Freeza. But I digress.

Either way, Freeza was still heavily suppressed when he arrived on earth according to Gohan, and we have no reason to believe he'd increased his ki prior to fighting Trunks. Ergo, we never saw his touted 'Mecha power up', because he was still suppressed when Trunks killed him. IMO.

[singsing]

I was surprised at this idea at first, but when I thought about it, it made perfect sense that the base Goku couldn't beat 100% Freeza. Consider the fact that he fights all of his opponents with transformations that increase his power up to 400 times his base. I don't believe any villains Goku beat were over 400 times as strong as Freeza. If he were to beat a villain that was over 400 times stronger than Freeza, then I would change my mind.

I am almost 100% certain the Buu's were over 400 times stronger than Freeza, especially considering Goku could get up to 40x stronger in base without overpowering Freeza.

[RandomGuy96]

He was probably using 70% when he 'fought' Trunks. That's the highest percentage we saw him use without bulking up.

Given Freeza's physical appearance, I agree that he could have been using up to 70% of his power--but personally, I think he was using less than that. After all, the most powerful being Freeza would've planned on encountering(sans Goku), was Vegeta--of whom he had easily slain on Namek while using only 3% of his power. With that knowledge, coupled with him believing Goku was still hours away, showing up at 70% power may have been a bit overkill... Even for Freeza. But I digress.

Either way, Freeza was still heavily suppressed when he arrived on earth according to Gohan, and we have no reason to believe he'd increased his ki prior to fighting Trunks. Ergo, we never saw his touted 'Mecha power up', because he was still suppressed when Trunks killed him. IMO.

Why would he still be holding back when he saw Trunks go Super Saiyan, freaked out, and tried to kill him? He wouldn't.

I think the scene has two meanings. One, Freeza-tier strength is crap now. Two, Freeza is still stupid and arrogant. I think the 70% interpretation gets both of those points across rather nicely. Freeza is one-shotted by Trunks because he didn't power up to 100% (despite Trunks' warning). But his 70% cyborg power was still pretty close to his organic 100% power on Namek, so we still see that the new guy is a big deal. The same thing happens when he then takes out Cold (who rivals 100% organic Freeza) with even less effort.

[Super SaiyaJon]

I am almost 100% certain the Buu's were over 400 times stronger than Freeza, especially considering Goku could get up to 40x stronger in base without overpowering Freeza.

Goku never beat a Buu. Plus I have a hard time believing Fat Buu, who Goku claimed to be able to beat, was 400 times as strong as Freeza. Any Super Buu? Sure, I have no problem believing they were 400 times stronger than Freeza.

[Galan007]

Why would he still be holding back when he saw Trunks go Super Saiyan, freaked out, and tried to kill him? He wouldn't.

I think the scene has two meanings. One, Freeza-tier strength is crap now. Two, Freeza is still stupid and arrogant. I think the 70% interpretation gets both of those points across rather nicely. Freeza is one-shotted by Trunks because he didn't power up to 100% (despite Trunks' warning). But his 70% cyborg power was still pretty close to his organic 100% power on Namek, so we still see that the new guy is a big deal. The same thing happens when he then takes out Cold (who rivals 100% organic Freeza) with even less effort.

Like I said: it's certainly possible that he powered up to 70% whilst fighting Trunks--we'll never know for sure. However, if we're assuming that 70% Mecha Freeza~100% organic Freeza, then Mecha Freeza wasn't anywhere near 70% power when he first arrived on earth, per Gohan's statement(hence my 3%-50% opinion.) So IF he powered up to 70% after Trunks went SSJ, you'd *think* a huge spike in power like that would've been mentioned, or at least alluded to--but it wasn't. /shrug

Either way, we're diverging from the main point: we never got to see Freeza's touted 'Mecha power up' because he was still suppressed when Trunks killed him. IMO.

[rereboy]

Like I said: it's certainly possible that he powered up to 70% whilst fighting Trunks--we'll never know for sure. However, if we're assuming that 70% Mecha Freeza~100% organic Freeza, then Mecha Freeza wasn't anywhere near 70% power when he first arrived on earth, per Gohan's statement(hence my 3%-50% opinion.) So IF he powered up to 70% after Trunks went SSJ, you'd *think* a huge spike in power like that would've been mentioned, or at least alluded to--but it wasn't. /shrug

Either way, we're diverging from the main point: we never got to see Freeza's touted 'Mecha power up' because he was still suppressed when Trunks killed him. IMO.

You don't even know if he can buff up while Mecha Freeza. For all we know, his cybernetics allow him to use 100% without needing a physical change like that. After all, if he actually buffed up, would his cybernetics also buff up?

[Galan007]

Like I said: it's certainly possible that he powered up to 70% whilst fighting Trunks--we'll never know for sure. However, if we're assuming that 70% Mecha Freeza~100% organic Freeza, then Mecha Freeza wasn't anywhere near 70% power when he first arrived on earth, per Gohan's statement(hence my 3%-50% opinion.) So IF he powered up to 70% after Trunks went SSJ, you'd *think* a huge spike in power like that would've been mentioned, or at least alluded to--but it wasn't. /shrug

Either way, we're diverging from the main point: we never got to see Freeza's touted 'Mecha power up' because he was still suppressed when Trunks killed him. IMO.

You don't even know if he can buff up while Mecha Freeza. For all we know, his cybernetics allow him to use 100% without needing a physical change like that. After all, if he actually buffed up, would his cybernetics also buff up?

If Freeza tapped all of his Mecha-power, we would have definitely been informed of such via in-universe comments/depictions. As it stands, however, Gohan outright stated that Freeza was heavily suppressed when he first arrived on earth, and absolutely no evidence suggests that he wasn't still suppressed when Trunks killed him.

[rereboy]

If Freeza tapped all of his Mecha-power, we would have definitely been informed of such via in-universe comments/depictions.

We were informed that Cold didn't feel the need to mention to Trunks that he wouldn't have such an easy time if Freeza was at 100%. That implies that Cold didn't consider that to be a factor which implies that Freeza was fighting at full power.

But even without that, I see no reason for why Toriyama would have to do the same thing he did with Freeza in the Namek arc ("now I'm 50%. Now I'm 70%. Now I'm 100%"), when he obviously was more interested in making Trunk quickly get rid of Freeza to demonstrate how surpassed Freeza was.

[Galan007]

We were informed that Cold didn't feel the need to mention to Trunks that he wouldn't have such an easy time if Freeza was at 100%. That implies that Cold didn't consider that to be a factor which implies that Freeza was fighting at full power.

But even without that, I see no reason for why Toriyama would have to do the same thing he did with Freeza in the Namek arc ("now I'm 50%. Now I'm 70%. Now I'm 100%"), when he obviously was more interested in making Trunk quickly get rid of Freeza to demonstrate how surpassed Freeza was.

You're digging. Every single one of the Z Fighters can very accurately sense ki. Cold cannot. Furthermore, Gohan explicitly stated that Mecha Freeza was heavily suppressed when he arrived on earth, which means he was monitoring Freeza's ki--and given that Gohan was still on Namek to sense 100% Freeza, his word on the subject is irrefutable. That said, if neither Gohan, nor any of the other Z Fighters, noted a significant increase in Mecha Freeza's ki... Then there wasn't a significant increase in Mecha Freeza's ki. Period.

Despite this, I'm even willing to agree with the opinion that Mecha Freeza was tapping 70% of his power on earth, assuming that'd put him nearly on par with 100% organic Freeza. However, there is no evidence suggestive of him fighting SSJ Trunks with more power than he possessed on Namek... Which is why I think it's rather clear that his 'Mecha power up' was never seen.

[Kamiccolo9]

That said, if neither Gohan, nor any of the other Z Fighters, noted a significant increase in Mecha Freeza's ki... Then there wasn't a significant increase in Mecha Freeza's ki. Period.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I mean, I agree with your conclusion, but your argument doesn't prove anything. Adding "Period' to the end of it doesn't add any weight to your assertion either.

[rereboy]

You're digging. Every single one of the Z Fighters can very accurately sense ki. Cold cannot. Furthermore, Gohan explicitly stated that Mecha Freeza was heavily suppressed when he arrived on earth, which means he was monitoring Freeza's ki--and given that Gohan was still on Namek to sense 100% Freeza, his word on the subject is irrefutable. That said, if neither Gohan, nor any of the other Z Fighters, noted a significant increase in Mecha Freeza's ki... Then there wasn't a significant increase in Mecha Freeza's ki. Period.

Despite this, I'm even willing to agree with the opinion that Mecha Freeza was tapping 70% of his power on earth, assuming that'd put him nearly on par with 100% organic Freeza. However, there is no evidence suggestive of him fighting SSJ Trunks with more power than he possessed on Namek... Which is why I think it's rather clear that his 'Mecha power up' was never seen.

I'm not really digging any more than you are. You argument is "well, if he was using 100% it would have been mentioned" while mine is "well, if he was using less than 100% as he was fighting Trunks it would have been mentioned". Why didn't Gohan mention that? Why didn't Cold mention that? I just flipped your argument on you to show you that it can be used either way with equal validity. You find it weird that no one mentioned Freeza's power rising but no one mentioning that Freeza was fighting a SSJ with less than 100% and got killed without using 100% is just as weird, if not more.

And Cold didn't have to feel Ki. If Freeza had to bulk up to reach 100%, Cold would know Freeza hadn't use it and so its kind of weird of him to not mention that but mention Trunks' sword and its role in Trunks' victory. The only case where Cold wouldn't know if Freeza had reached 100% is if we assume that Freeza didn't have to bulk up to reach 100%. In that case Cold wouldn't know it but, if Freeza didn't have to bulk up, there is absolutely no reason for Freeza to NOT be at 100% while fighting Trunks. And in both cases, Gohan not mentioning that Freeza was at less than 100% is just as weird as him not mentioning Freeza's power rising.

[Galan007]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I mean, I agree with your conclusion, but your argument doesn't prove anything. Adding "Period' to the end of it doesn't add any weight to your assertion either.

I most often see this term used when someone has nothing substantial to support their argument. Period.

I'm not really digging any more than you are. You argument is "well, if he was using 100% it would have been mentioned" while mine is "well, if he was using less than 100% as he was fighting Trunks it would have been mentioned". Why didn't Gohan mention that? Why didn't Cold mention that? I just flipped your argument on you to show you that it can be used either way with equal validity. You find it weird that no one mentioned Freeza's power rising but no one mentioning that Freeza was fighting a SSJ with less than 100% and got killed without using 100% is just as weird, if not more.

And Cold didn't have to feel Ki. If Freeza had to bulk up to reach 100%, Cold would know Freeza hadn't use it and so its kind of weird of him to not mention that but mention Trunks' sword and its role in Trunks' victory. The only case where Cold wouldn't know if Freeza had reached 100% is if we assume that Freeza didn't have to bulk up to reach 100%. In that case Cold wouldn't know it but, if Freeza didn't have to bulk up, there is absolutely no reason for Freeza to NOT be at 100% while fighting Trunks. And in both cases, Gohan not mentioning that Freeza was at less than 100% is just as weird as him not mentioning Freeza's power rising.

The difference is that Freeza being hugely suppressed when he arrived on earth was explicitly noted by Gohan. Conversely, we were NEVER given a reason to believe Freeza was no longer suppressing his ki before Trunks killed him.

ie. my opinion actually has in-universe evidence behind it. Yours does not.

[kuartus4]

How did Trunks know mecha Freeza was not at full power? His only source of information about Freeza was Gohan, and Gohan did not get to see Freeza go buff while powering up to 100% on Namek. So it seems that for Trunks to know Freeza was suppressed, he must have known that Freeza was buff at full power, which he knew because Gohan saw Mecha Freeza go buff at full power and then later related that to kid trunks. Its a theory.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think Trunks knew Freeza wasn't at full-power because of the power he was sensing from him at that point. I mean, they usually get a good idea about their opponents once they power-up or start fighting. Freeza was doing neither. It's a more simple explanation to me.

[Galan007]

How did Trunks know mecha Freeza was not at full power? His only source of information about Freeza was Gohan, and Gohan did not get to see Freeza go buff while powering up on Namek. So it seems that for Trunks to know Freeza was suppressed, he must have known that Freeza was buff at full power, which he knew because Gohan saw Mecha Freeza go buff at full power and then later related that to kid trunks. Its a theory.

Not really sure what you're asking, but Gohan was still on Namek when Freeza reached 100%. When Mecha Freeza arrived on earth, Gohan noted that his power was hugely suppressed(relative to the 100% power he'd sensed on Namek.) Trunks never commented on Freeza's level of 'suppression', though, as he'd never sensed Freeza's ki before, thus had no way to gauge him like Gohan did.

[kuartus4]

Not really sure what you're asking, but Gohan was still on Namek when Freeza reached 100%. When Mecha Freeza arrived on earth, Gohan noted that his power was hugely suppressed(relative to the 100% power he'd sensed on Namek.) Trunks never commented on Freeza's level of 'suppression', though, as he'd never sensed Freeza's ki before, thus had no way to gauge him like Gohan did.

I know Gohan was still on Namek when Freeza reached 100% power. What I'm trying to say is that, while Gohan sensed 100% Freeza, he didn't see 100% Freeza, thus didn't see him go buff while powering up. Gohan left the battlefield shortly after Goku went SSJ and was already on his way to look for Bulma. And that's my point, since Trunks had no feel for Feeeza's full power, the only way he would know he wasn't at full power would be through visuals, I.e Freeza not looking like a body builder.

I think Trunks knew Freeza wasn't at full-power because of the power he was sensing from him at that point. I mean, they usually get a good idea about their opponents once they power-up or start fighting. Freeza was doing neither. It's a more simple explanation to me.

You have to be a very good ki senser like Goku to tell someone is suppressed before they show their full power. I don't think Trunks was that good a ki senser. He did not realize Perfect Cell was still massively suppressed while fighting him, and quite confidently believed to be stronger than Perfect Cell when he unveiled his USSJ transformation.