Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U.S.?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
rereboy
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10262
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by rereboy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:28 am

Adamant wrote:
I think you misunderstood what I meant. Quoting other people's work for the purpose of educating a paying audience or making a referential joke to someone else's work to an audience paying to hear your jokes is one thing, and definitely falls under fair use. Making significant profit from drawing fan art of other people's creations and selling them is another. The difference between a bootleg Dragonball poster and a poster print of a piece of Dragonball fanart is mostly just the scale of the production and the level the artist likes the franchise.
I understood what you stated. But while I do agree that its more tricky than those other cases, I just don't consider it to be so vastly different. Fan art in general can be considered derivate work, but plenty of it can still fall under the scope of "fair use" protection. By simply saying that fan art in general doesn't have that protection, you are removing that protection from a lot of work that has the same reasons to be protected by fair use as those other more clear examples. "Fair use" doesn't have objective limits, its a broad notion that relies more on a case by case analysis than an general set of cases. As such, its certainly possible for a court to consider a particular fan art to not be protected by "fair use", especially if doesn't have obvious parody elements or isn't highly transformative, but its just as easy for a court to consider it protected by fair use upon analyzing it. It will depend much more on the work itself than on the fact that its fan art, and pretty much all fan art can make an argument that its intent is parody by imitation.

Also, the difference between a bootleg Dragonball poster and a poster print of a piece of Dragonball fanart, is that the first is an illegal distribution of the original material while the second is just the use of designs that might be copyrighted and that depending on the case, can be perfectly acceptable.

In any case, Abridged is quite clearly a parody.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17801
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:45 am

rereboy wrote:In any case, Abridged is quite clearly a parody.
In an everyday layman's meaning, yes.

I'm not entirely convinced that would hold up in a United States court of law.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

rereboy
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10262
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by rereboy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:28 am

VegettoEX wrote:
rereboy wrote:In any case, Abridged is quite clearly a parody.
In an everyday layman's meaning, yes.

I'm not entirely convinced that would hold up in a United States court of law.
With all due respect, nobody can be entirely convinced that any given court will definitely rule in any given way. Its not math. Pretty much all arguments can be made and courts worldwide have conflicting decisions all the time and they even make wrong decisions all the time. That is why appeals exist. Most people don't realize this, but its true. The best we can do is analyze the strengh of a particular argument. And in this case, the argument for abridged to be protected is very compelling. There is no point in dismissing this by saying that the court might not rule it that way. That can happen in any case presented in court, even the, apparently, most obvious ones.

User avatar
KaiserNeko
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: Dallas, TX United States

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:54 pm

Just wanted to remind people: We do not make ad revenue off of the DBZA episodes, or the Hellsing episodes. Shirts sold alongside it, yes, as well as our side videos such as Let's Plays, Episode Breakdowns, etc.

As far as the shirts having DragonBall characters: We try and make sure that they're always transformative of their original designs, or only use dialogue we wrote for our show. Ghost Nappa, the Son Goku/Scott Pilgrim crossover, the ANDROIDS shirt. The only one that is strictly not transformative would be the When You Wish Upon a Star shirt, which is more a tribute shirt than anything.
Check out TeamFourStar's DragonBall Z Abridged:
http://teamfourstar.com/

User avatar
LuckyCat
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: The Sacred Land
Contact:

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:34 pm

I think DBZA benefits the franchise as a mouthpiece for genuine issues in the original dubs. One of my favorite examples is Funimation's original handling of Goku's Super Saiyan Speech on Namek "I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace, etc." This speech is one of the most ham-handed pieces of dialogue I've encountered and TFS was right to call them out on that in its parody.

The bright side is, that groups like TFS bring attention to these errors to the fans and professional dubbers alike, encouraging a higher standard through informed community participation.

User avatar
KaiserNeko
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: Dallas, TX United States

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:47 pm

LuckyCat wrote:I think DBZA benefits the franchise as a mouthpiece for genuine issues in the original dubs. One of my favorite examples is Funimation's original handling of Goku's Super Saiyan Speech on Namek "I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace, etc." This speech is one of the most ham-handed pieces of dialogue I've encountered and TFS was right to call them out on that in its parody.

The bright side is, that groups like TFS bring attention to these errors to the fans and professional dubbers alike, encouraging a higher standard through informed community participation.
Wouldn't know if I'd personally go that far...
... but there is a part of me that has been happy we are constantly using the name Son Goku, over and over and over again, reminding people what his full name is.
Check out TeamFourStar's DragonBall Z Abridged:
http://teamfourstar.com/

ImmaDeker
Banned
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:07 pm

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by ImmaDeker » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:40 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:Just wanted to remind people: We do not make ad revenue off of [...] Hellsing episodes, [...] Let's Plays
I'd fucking hope not.

User avatar
KaiserNeko
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: Dallas, TX United States

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:43 pm

ImmaDeker wrote:
KaiserNeko wrote:Just wanted to remind people: We do not make ad revenue off of [...] Hellsing episodes, [...] Let's Plays
I'd fucking hope not.
We make money off Let's Plays, if you're suggesting I implied we weren't.
Check out TeamFourStar's DragonBall Z Abridged:
http://teamfourstar.com/

ImmaDeker
Banned
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:07 pm

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by ImmaDeker » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:44 pm

Oh, wait, you do? I must've misread.

Allow me to readjust my reaction:

Jesus fucking Christ.

User avatar
KaiserNeko
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: Dallas, TX United States

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:46 pm

ImmaDeker wrote:Oh, wait, you do? I must've misread.

Allow me to readjust my reaction:

Jesus fucking Christ.
Markiplier, PewdiePie, Game Grumps, as well as hundred of other Let's Players. If you have a problem with it, fine. But it's a popular source of revenue these days. It's one of the reasons we don't put "non-profit" in the disclaimer anymore, actually.
Check out TeamFourStar's DragonBall Z Abridged:
http://teamfourstar.com/

ImmaDeker
Banned
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:07 pm

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by ImmaDeker » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:47 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
ImmaDeker wrote:Oh, wait, you do? I must've misread.

Allow me to readjust my reaction:

Jesus fucking Christ.
Markiplier, PewdiePie, Game Grumps, as well as hundred of other Let's Players. If you have a problem with it, fine. But it's a popular source of revenue these days.
I'll stop being inflammatory for a second, because I have a sincere question.

Why is it that when someone thinks the idea of money via Let's Playing is stupid, your immediate reaction is to point out other people do it? It's like you're just opting to name more people I'm just going to redundantly tell you are stupid.

ALSO

They are stupid.

User avatar
Gyt Kaliba
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8869
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:38 am
Location: Arkansas
Contact:

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:50 pm

And exactly why is them making money off of ad revenue of Let's Plays stupid? Try explaining yourself for once instead of raging for the sake of raging.

I don't really get the appeal of Let's Plays myself, I've only ever seen very brief segments of a few of them and while amusing, they're not something I plan to go out of my way to watch; but I don't exactly see the issue with people making money off of ads on such videos either. If the interest base is there, someone, somewhere, was going to monetize it eventually - it may as well be the people actually making the videos.
AniManga Travelogue - Currently Reviewing: Dragon Ball (Z)
Twitter
Switch Friend Code: SW-0745-6427-7791 (let's play some Dragon Ball: The Breakers!)

User avatar
KaiserNeko
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: Dallas, TX United States

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:51 pm

ImmaDeker wrote:I'll stop being inflammatory for a second, because I have a sincere question.

Why is it that when someone thinks the idea of money via Let's Playing is stupid, your immediate reaction is to point out other people do it? It's like you're just opting to name more people I'm just going to redundantly tell you are stupid.

ALSO

They are stupid.
I sincerely thought that it was possible you were unfamiliar with the concept enough to not know the biggest, most popular users monetize them. But as I see, that does not matter to you either way; you don't like the idea of monetizing Let's Plays.
Gyt Kaliba wrote:And exactly why is them making money off of ad revenue of Let's Plays stupid? Try explaining yourself for once instead of raging for the sake of raging.

I don't really get the appeal of Let's Plays myself, I've only ever seen very brief segments of a few of them and while amusing, they're not something I plan to go out of my way to watch; but I don't exactly see the issue with people making money off of ads on such videos either. If the interest base is there, someone, somewhere, was going to monetize it eventually - it may as well be the people actually making the videos.
People are utilizing per-exisiting resources (in this case, videogames and all that entails; i.e. game models, music, rendered cinematics, etc.) to create their "own experience" of which they can share online. The idea is to entertain and educate through commentary on game design, quality, etc., and there is a certain amount of argument that these Let's Plays ultimately serve as advertisement for games both industry and indie. But there is still a point of contention out there about the monetization of this content; it's not exactly rocket science to hook up a capture card or switch on Fraps to record your content and then post it to Youtube. Game Grumps had the advantage of utilizing some of the internet's most popular personalities to skyrocket an otherwise passably funny program of two people playing videogames to netting Arin "Egoraptor" Hanson over 100k a year.

There's a conversation to be had about it's legitimacy and whether or not it's good for the industry, as well as the economy. We don't exactly make MAD BANK off them, though, so I don't necessarily feel a tremendous amount of "guilt" for our utilization of Let's Play monetization.
ImmaDeker wrote: TeamFourStar is basically a sentient textbook on how to be as terrible an internet age entertainer as possible.
Yep.
Last edited by KaiserNeko on Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Check out TeamFourStar's DragonBall Z Abridged:
http://teamfourstar.com/

User avatar
Ajay
Moderator
Posts: 6220
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 6:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by Ajay » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:54 pm

I make money from YouTube. Machinima contracted me to make videos for their Respawn channel as a result too. What exactly is so 'stupid' about it? You are being paid for being an entertainer and for the work you put into your videos. What exactly is your issue with that?
Follow me on Twitter for countless shitposts.

Deadtuber.

ImmaDeker
Banned
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:07 pm

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by ImmaDeker » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:56 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:Try explaining yourself for once
I'm sure I'm just overthinking it.
KaiserNeko wrote:I sincerely thought that it was possible you were unfamiliar with the concept enough to not know the biggest, most popular users monetize them. But as I see, that does not matter to you either way; you don't like the idea of monetizing Let's Plays.
TeamFourStar is basically a sentient textbook on how to be as terrible an internet age entertainer as possible.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:I make money from YouTube. Machinima contracted me to make videos for their Respawn channel as a result too. What exactly is so 'stupid' about it? You are being paid for being an entertainer and for the work you put into your videos. What exactly is your issue with that?
That the standards of performance have legit devolved to being mad dope at Halo Reach.

EDIT: Bro.

User avatar
Gyt Kaliba
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8869
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:38 am
Location: Arkansas
Contact:

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:59 pm

ImmaDeker wrote:
Gyt Kaliba wrote:Try explaining yourself for once
I'm sure I'm just overthinking it.
I used to think that was the problem, but no, now I'm just pretty sure you love being inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory. For God's sake, you didn't even manage not to be for an entire post when you yourself said you were going to tone it down for a second. Is your condescending jerk switch just stuck in the 'On' position 24/7 or something?
Last edited by Gyt Kaliba on Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AniManga Travelogue - Currently Reviewing: Dragon Ball (Z)
Twitter
Switch Friend Code: SW-0745-6427-7791 (let's play some Dragon Ball: The Breakers!)

User avatar
Ajay
Moderator
Posts: 6220
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 6:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by Ajay » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:00 pm

I don't disagree that those who make money from sitting in front of a game and talking shit for 10 minutes a video is depressing. However, there's plenty of people, like myself, who spend a great deal of time scripting, filming and cutting together content to create something of actual quality. TeamFourStar put insane amounts of work into their content and you somehow believe they're not entitled to make money off of it?

What exactly is this 'standard' you have for online entertainers.

Also, enough with the attitude. Are you actively looking to get your account banned? Talk to people with respect when they're trying to have a conversation with you.
Follow me on Twitter for countless shitposts.

Deadtuber.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:01 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
rereboy wrote:In any case, Abridged is quite clearly a parody.
In an everyday layman's meaning, yes.

I'm not entirely convinced that would hold up in a United States court of law.
U-S-A! U-S-A!
I don't disagree that those who make money from sitting in front of a game and talking shit for 10 minutes a video is depressing.
If it's entertaining, I don't see anything wrong with it, per se. I don't follow any let's players or let's plays (unless Freeman's Mind counts, and I really don't think it does), though I have seen bits and pieces or single videos. I've gotten some entertainment from them. Apparently, tons of other people have too, and far more than me, since the let's play fad has never been bigger.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
KentalSSJ6
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6473
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:03 am
Location: Chicago, Illinois.

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:03 pm

Deker I need to ask, how do you sit with that stick up your ass? I mean at this point you could qualify as a Jeff Dunham puppet.
Deviantart (NSFW) - http://yamato012.deviantart.com/
DBSW Group Page - http://dbsw.deviantart.com/
Still the 1k Sniper - [spoiler]http://orig10.deviantart.net/6a02/f/201 ... 8npe7r.png[/spoiler]

User avatar
KaiserNeko
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: Dallas, TX United States

Re: Has TFS damaged the reputation of the franchise in the U

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:06 pm

Listen, ImmaDekker has his own sensibilities and, while I find his attitude to be both unnecessarily insulting and dangerously inflammatory, I think it's best not to focus too much on it and to just let him have his opinion. He has no interest in having a civil, polite, personal conversation about any of these topics, nor will he budge his opinions on any single subject he brings up. That's not what he's here for, that's not what he wants.

This also isn't necessarily the place to talk about Let's Plays and their values, though how they relate to us might be on topic. Either way, he absolutely does not like TFS, what it does, what it stands for, and he's certainly allowed to feel that way and voice it in the appropriate places; one of them basically being here.
Check out TeamFourStar's DragonBall Z Abridged:
http://teamfourstar.com/

Post Reply