Am I the only one who hates all these new movies?

[Eire]

"Sayians are no more one-dimensional"- the problem is that they are.

My point is that they have more depth to them as a people. You can complain about the execution (one could complain about a majority of the execution of ideas in this series), but that wasn't my point. I'll take: "these people are generally pure evil and heartless, but exceptions exist!" over "these people are all pure evil and heartless!" any day.

I'll take- cultures that evolved naturally are not evil per se. Why can't they be just different?
Take my Roman example- their morality from our POV was cruel as hell, yet student of law in the bigger part of the Europe are still menaced by their laws and customs.
Think about Aztec, steppe nomads, even medieval Europe- you can't say that they were evil all along even if their customs were disturbing at best.
I wanted Sayians to be in-depth complex society, not "those evil ones and several exceptions that we just happen to know better". You can see that Toriyama may even see my point (his comments about Sayians not having a family) but he just has to write that Goku's parents were exceptional and they loved each other that gives very creepy voice in vnature vs nurture debate.

[Hellspawn28]

Sayians were portrayed as badass evil space pirates and I refuse to accept any other portrayal... on the grounds of vague memories and childhood nostalgia.

Just because they were portrayed like evil space pirates does not mean that they are all like that. Humans have caused genocide, and murder but not all of them are like that. They are may have not been many good Saiyans but they did exist. Fans need to stop basing everything that they see with Dragon Ball on the anime since we never seen Planet Vegeta and the life style of the Planet in the manga.

[Colonel Silver]

Just because they were portrayed like evil space pirates does not mean that they are all like that. Humans have caused genocide, and murder but not all of them are like that. They are may have not been many good Saiyans but they did exist. Fans need to stop basing everything that they see with Dragon Ball on the anime since we never seen Planet Vegeta and the life style of the Planet in the manga.

Oh my god, guy. I'm not going to reiterate the point I was making again. It's taxing. I'm not the intellectual or the debating sort of person. I have to dig deep for even a single thought Lol. I think Eire's posts might make my beef a little more clear. We've had CANON examples of how a Saiyan should and shouldn't act with Raditz and Vegeta, they were disgusted of Goku's behaviour and weakness. Why wouldn't this apply to the entire race as well? They were disgusted because Treehugging and weakness isn't something the Sayians ever tolerated. It's not normal for them. Why would they have this reaction if it was okay to coexist with people like Gine or Tarble?

I understand what canon is. Get off that saddle hombre.

[i'mfuckingevil]

It's not really their fault if people were expected a buffed up crazy Broly like Goku, that's what I assume you mean by a few problems.

Gods have generally been depicted as having average builds and looking quite human. My younger brother was reading a book about Greek Gods and none of them were portrayed as over the top. Also, quick google search gave up similar results.

I didn't WANT a new SSJ transformation at all. I'd rather the genetic potential of saiyan transformations cap at SSJ3. And adding the word "god" to the mix didn't make things any better in my opinion, it made things so much worse for me at least. So if one day another even more powerful evil alien in the universe comes along and Goku has to fight them, are they gonna come up with ANOTHER stupid SSJ transformation even greater than SSJ "god"? Fuck that shit. From the start, it is completely devaluing what "god" is supposed to mean and I'll just leave it at that because I don't want this post to start something else.

[Hellspawn28]

Further, we haven't gotten any new evil Saiyans since Broli. All the new Saiyans we've been introduced to have been unique.

Evil Saiyans are over done if you ask me. What more can we do with a evil saiyan that is not a rehash of that we seen in the past?

[TheGmGoken]

Further, we haven't gotten any new evil Saiyans since Broli. All the new Saiyans we've been introduced to have been unique.

Evil Saiyans are over done if you ask me. What more can we do with a evil saiyan that is not a rehash of that we seen in the past?

We haven't had a evil Saiyan since 1993. Every other Saiyan been good and they all the same. They all dislike fighting, kindhearted, and "different" from the rest. Turns out they're aren't that different afterall.

[Eire]

Yup, that's what I'm saying. Why not for example Saiyan who likes fighting but cares from his children and thinks that her little daughter will enjoy necklace she just stripped from the fresh corpse's neck?

[Zephyr]

Toriyama's Bardock is a Saiyan who loves fighting and cares for his children.

[Kamiccolo9]

From the start, it is completely devaluing what "god" is supposed to mean and I'll just leave it at that because I don't want this post to start something else.

And what is it "supposed" to mean? Different cultures have different views of what makes a god.

[B]

Dragon Ball takes conventional ideas and spins them on their head. The lead character is super strong, but is (initially)a scrawny runt. A handsome, combat-ready desert bandit can't talk to women. A hundreds-year-old martial arts master is actually a pervert. The idea that the concept of a "god", this being that looms over all others, is constantly tossed aside whenever a greater power arrives, fits right in. Dragon Ball is the business of "devaluing" everything.

[Vice]

My main problem with the movies is that these give Toriyama a perfectly legit opportunity to refresh the series and go into new directions and yet it's still the Super Saiyan show and if you don't have golden hair then you still don't matter. Hell, even worse, if you're not Goku or Vegeta than you don't really matter anymore.

The entire series was everyone gets pummeled and then stands around and cheers for Goku/Gohan/Vegeta/insert Saiyan character here and yet here we are with these movies and it's the same fucking thing. I mean you have Whis now who trained Bills and provides a perfectly acceptable chance to give lesser characters a chance to catch up and yet who gets this awesome opportunity to advance their level of relevancy? Once again, just Goku and Vegeta. Just the Saiyans.

[Hellspawn28]

I feel like people hate Dragon Ball Minus because fans grew up with the 90's Bardock TV special and took it as their own personal canon. So what if DB- came out in the 90's instead, would you guys still dislike it?

[Low Tone G]

I feel like people hate Dragon Ball Minus because fans grew up with the 90's Bardock TV special and took it as their own personal canon. So what if DB- came out in the 90's instead, would you guys still dislike it?

Possibly not, because many DBZ fans like Superman too.

[Michsi]

Once again, just Goku and Vegeta. Just the Saiyans.

This has been one of my biggest gripes with the series for a very long time, but I think most of us know why they're doing this. Goku, Vegeta (and the Super Saiyans) are just the most popular and it's the safest formula to use.

[VegettoEX]

I feel like people hate Dragon Ball Minus because fans grew up with the 90's Bardock TV special and took it as their own personal canon. So what if DB- came out in the 90's instead, would you guys still dislike it?

Yes, because it's a by-the-numbers checklist of surface-level plot points and character traits. There is no "story" there. There's nothing to sink your teeth into.

[Eire]

But on those 16 pages you have enough cliches to play cliche bingo.

I feel like people hate Dragon Ball Minus because fans grew up with the 90's Bardock TV special and took it as their own personal canon. So what if DB- came out in the 90's instead, would you guys still dislike it?

Possibly not, because many DBZ fans like Superman too.

Possibly yes, since one Superman is enough.
Notice that EoB also bear a resemblence to Super's orgin story, but it was diffrent enough to be called... homage I suppose. DB Minus on the other hand is just one Frieza away from blant plagiarism.

[Hellspawn28]

Goku was also consider to be a Japanese version of Superman since they have similar things common with each other. So I don't see the big deal really?

[Eire]

Was he? He was clearly inspired by Superman, but all similarities boiled down to extraterrestrial of the dead race saves the earth.
In terms of characterisation they were different as apples and oranges. Clark in nearly all incarnation is sensible voice of reason who fights because he has to, uses the technique and science from whole galaxy, has no problem with social interactions and works as a journalist because he wanted to be one and prove himself that he can succeed on intellectual field. Goku is... everyone see.
EoB just stressed the above. Meanwhile DB Minus just copycatted the basic origin story. That one that appeared in my literature textbook in secondary school. Addition of Frieza was probably enough for lawyers, but not for me.

[Hellspawn28]

I think Goku and Superman have a good amount things in common with each other. For example:

- Both of their fathers, Bardock and Jor-El warn the doom of their planet and no one listen.

- Both Goku and Superman went to Earth at a young age before their planet was destroyed and were both raised on Earth

- Both find out that they were members of surviving alien race

- Both grown up and became projectors of the Earth

- Both died and were brought back to life (Superman's death is still debatable)

Their personalities are different but they do share things in common with each other.

[Gyt Kaliba]

My main problem with the movies is that these give Toriyama a perfectly legit opportunity to refresh the series and go into new directions and yet it's still the Super Saiyan show and if you don't have golden hair then you still don't matter. Hell, even worse, if you're not Goku or Vegeta than you don't really matter anymore.

The entire series was everyone gets pummeled and then stands around and cheers for Goku/Gohan/Vegeta/insert Saiyan character here and yet here we are with these movies and it's the same fucking thing. I mean you have Whis now who trained Bills and provides a perfectly acceptable chance to give lesser characters a chance to catch up and yet who gets this awesome opportunity to advance their level of relevancy? Once again, just Goku and Vegeta. Just the Saiyans.

Sadly I get the feeling that even if they did give the other characters a chance to catch up, it wouldn't please a lot of fans. There's a good number of people (either that or just a few extremely vocal ones) who pretty much dismiss any character that's weaker as 'useless' and would never accept anything that allowed them to catch up.

This is all the more reason that I wish SD had continued on the line it's first one-shot had, with seemingly re-imagining the series from it's very beginning. That wouldn't have effected the status quo any, but it would have given us a possibly fun alternative that would hopefully have found ways to keep characters more relevant in fights later on.