Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:21 pm

The massive power up he did suggested at least a 2x boost, based on reactions from z senshi, but that's my opinion, so I won't claim it's fact
His actual feats suggest his boost was maybe x1.5. Perfect Cell's full speed was not far above SS Gohan's full speed. What exactly are you basing this off of? Vegeta shook the whole Earth and caused tsunamis and hurricanes with his power up in the Saiyan arc, and his power didn't actually increase at all.
Don't see why he would one-shot 17 if he's trying to absorb him, and it doesn't negate the fact that Cell tanked and amplified ki blast, which has to put him multifolds above Piccolo, there was even a line where Piccolo made fun of Cell's KHH for having poor amp not to long before that.
He would hit him once to knock him out. Cell should be able to do that. But rather than do that, he hit him repeatedly. Same with Piccolo. He had zero reason to hold back on Piccolo when Piccolo made him angry and kicked him away from 17, but it still took no less than four blows to put Piccolo down. Even then, Piccolo survived. If Cell were that much stronger, Piccolo would last about as long as it took for Cell to wave his hand in Piccolo's general direction. Or he could break every bone in Piccolo's body with one kick, e.g. Recoome vs Krillin.

No, it doesn't. Believe it or not, there's nothing actually proving that ki blasts are "multi fold' over your regular battle power. In fact, there's a lot of things contradicting that. Including this feat.

Yes, and? How does Piccolo's line make the slightest bit of sense if Cell's Kamehameha is actually several times his own battle power? Cell would be wielding by FAR the greatest power anyone in the universe (to his knowledge) had ever wielded at that point, something strong enough to kill him and 17 and 18 at the same time, and Cell gathered it in about three seconds. Yet that power, the power that completely dwarfs his own and everyone else's, is "weak"?
Prove Trunks needed Super Saiyan, perhaps he was being conscious? I don't see why Future Trunks in base should be below the Future (stated to be weaker) Androids when Kid Trunks was on par with 18 in a restricting suit.
Prove that he didn't. There's literally no reason for him to use Super Saiyan if it's completely irrelevant. Especially since using just his base power would help him make the androids feel terrified and weak before killing them.

What? I mean, I'm pretty sure he was conscious. I didn't know there was a debate about that.

Did you mean to say cautious? Because Trunks is the opposite of cautious. And even if he WASN'T the opposite of cautious, he's not actually taking any risk by just using his base form by your numbers.

Simple: he wasn't. Hence why SS Trunks still can't easily get rid of 18, and 18 felt confident in taking SS Trunks + SS Goten after fighting their base forms (this changed when they actually started showing their Super Saiyan power).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:25 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
The massive power up he did suggested at least a 2x boost, based on reactions from z senshi, but that's my opinion, so I won't claim it's fact
His actual feats suggest his boost was maybe x1.5. Perfect Cell's full speed was not far above SS Gohan's full speed. What exactly are you basing this off of? Vegeta shook the whole Earth and caused tsunamis and hurricanes with his power up in the Saiyan arc, and his power didn't actually increase at all.
Don't see why he would one-shot 17 if he's trying to absorb him, and it doesn't negate the fact that Cell tanked and amplified ki blast, which has to put him multifolds above Piccolo, there was even a line where Piccolo made fun of Cell's KHH for having poor amp not to long before that.
He would hit him once to knock him out. Cell should be able to do that. But rather than do that, he hit him repeatedly. Same with Piccolo. He had zero reason to hold back on Piccolo when Piccolo made him angry and kicked him away from 17, but it still took no less than four blows to put Piccolo down. Even then, Piccolo survived. If Cell were that much stronger, Piccolo would last about as long as it took for Cell to wave his hand in Piccolo's general direction. Or he could break every bone in Piccolo's body with one kick, e.g. Recoome vs Krillin.

No, it doesn't. Believe it or not, there's nothing actually proving that ki blasts are "multi fold' over your regular battle power. In fact, there's a lot of things contradicting that. Including this feat.

Yes, and? How does Piccolo's line make the slightest bit of sense if Cell's Kamehameha is actually several times his own battle power? Cell would be wielding by FAR the greatest power anyone in the universe (to his knowledge) had ever wielded at that point, something strong enough to kill him and 17 and 18 at the same time, and Cell gathered it in about three seconds. Yet that power, the power that completely dwarfs his own and everyone else's, is "weak"?
Prove Trunks needed Super Saiyan, perhaps he was being conscious? I don't see why Future Trunks in base should be below the Future (stated to be weaker) Androids when Kid Trunks was on par with 18 in a restricting suit.
Prove that he didn't. There's literally no reason for him to use Super Saiyan if it's completely irrelevant. Especially since using just his base power would help him make the androids feel terrified and weak before killing them.

What? I mean, I'm pretty sure he was conscious. I didn't know there was a debate about that.

Did you mean to say cautious? Because Trunks is the opposite of cautious. And even if he WASN'T the opposite of cautious, he's not actually taking any risk by just using his base form by your numbers.

Simple: he wasn't. Hence why SS Trunks still can't easily get rid of 18, and 18 felt confident in taking SS Trunks + SS Goten after fighting their base forms (this changed when they actually started showing their Super Saiyan power).
Oops yeah I did mean cautious, lol, I thought that looked wrong. That's a good point about Piccolo and Cell and ki amp, I never looked at it that way, maybe I can fix it. and Trunks was doing pretty good in base while being in a restricting suit. and does 18 even know that SSJ is a boost? Does she know it makes them multifold stronger, doesn't seem she did in the Android arc.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:28 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote: I'm not seeing how this even constitutes as a joke, unless your supposed to be parodying people who are full of themselves. We've had joke lists by some people or joke titles in our lists like Kaboom and I have done which would constitute as jokes.
Spoiler:
The list itself is not a joke, and you're correct, I am 'parodying' (I was just gonna say mimicking) a person full of them self. I can see I'm not welcome to share my PLs at all, I'll just never post here again if that's what you want :D
Now that's going a little far. By all means post and share as it's fun to do that. We're not out to get you and make you miserable. I just found the "blessing" comment unneeded and reminiscent of the extremely cocky people I know who truly do build themselves up like that. I just don't find those comments funny unless we're supposed to understand the post is meant to be bad. When it's not, I'm lead to assume someone is praising them self like some messiah or ultimate decider in the fandom. I'm not trying to ruin your time or anyone elses. I thought I saw just another arrogant post, but apparently it was not. These kind of comments I guess you can say are bad lead ons for me.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:31 pm

Oops yeah I did mean cautious, lol, I thought that looked wrong. That's a good point about Piccolo and Cell and ki amp, I never looked at it that way, maybe I can fix it. and Trunks was doing pretty good in base while being in a restricting suit. and does 18 even know that SSJ is a boost? Does she know it makes them multifold stronger, doesn't seem she did in the Android arc.
Let's assume for a second that 18 doesn't know that SS increases your strength at all (even though she clearly knows that it at least increases their strength by a good amount). Your numbers still wouldn't really work. 18 was surprised that Trunks could produce a blast stronger than her at all (his suppressed attack wasn't MUCH stronger, since she could still dodge) despite knowing about ki amplification. This wouldn't be the case if she was already equal to the base form Trunks she just fought. Trunks also wouldn't care about the suit, he would just KO 18 with a finger-flick. In 18's mind, it was pretty clear the base kids were garbage, and even the Super Saiyan kids were outclassed. Hence why it was such a shock when they produced a blast that strong.

In the Android arc, she knows that the Super Saiyans are stronger than the base saiyans. This should be all she needs to know, if Trunks was already on par with her.

Also, Goku took the Nova Strike to the gut and was totally fine. It's definitely not over twice his strength.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:32 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote: I'm not seeing how this even constitutes as a joke, unless your supposed to be parodying people who are full of themselves. We've had joke lists by some people or joke titles in our lists like Kaboom and I have done which would constitute as jokes.
Spoiler:
The list itself is not a joke, and you're correct, I am 'parodying' (I was just gonna say mimicking) a person full of them self. I can see I'm not welcome to share my PLs at all, I'll just never post here again if that's what you want :D
Now that's going a little far. By all means post and share as it's fun to do that. We're not out to get you and make you miserable. I just found the "blessing" comment unneeded and reminiscent of the extremely cocky people I know who truly do build themselves up like that. I just don't find those comments funny unless we're supposed to understand the post is meant to be bad. When it's not, I'm lead to assume someone is praising them self like some messiah or ultimate decider in the fandom. I'm not trying to ruin your time or anyone elses. I thought I saw just another arrogant post, but apparently it was not. These kind of comments I guess you can say are bad lead ons for me.
It's OK, it was a misunderstanding, I wasn't trying to give the impression that I think better of myself or everything I say is right, I meant it in a joking manner. I won't post like that again.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:38 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Lol if you actually read Dragon Ball you would realize humans being 5 makes no sense, and the power gaps in Dragon Ball are too large for Goku to start ar 10 and only be 461, unless you think Goku only got ~40x stronger in all of Dragon Ball :lol:
It doesn't seem right with me either, but a stated power level directly from the source should probably count for more, if one's attempting an accurate power level list.
I forgot? Sorry? Piccolo's attack PL should be in the manga so why are you complaining?
I'm not complaining, I was just curious.
Trunks had to have gotten stronger, as you said Trunks and Vegeta shouldn't be far apart, and Vegeta trained for 3 years after Trunks' first appearance, so if Vegeta powered up Trunks had to also.
Even if Trunks had to have received such a big power-up, there's still the issue with Vegeta saying #19 & #20 aren't as strong as they should be, when all he has to go on is, that they were supposed to be much stronger than Trunks, which they were according to this list.
I'm not Trunks, I can't give you an in-universe explanation, maybe he just wanted to one-shot them and get it over with? If you're trying to say he's supposed to be weaker in base you're wrong.
Okay then.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by kuartus4 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:02 pm

dbgtFO wrote: there's still the issue with Vegeta saying #19 & #20 aren't as strong as they should be, when all he has to go on is, that they were supposed to be much stronger than Trunks...
That's not all he had to go on though. Vegeta was aware that the future androids had killed him. So "not as bad as you were made out to be" could mean, "not strong enough to kill me"
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote: While it's true that farmers PL was stated @ 5, that pretty much contradicts the story (in a way). I like to use the decimal system to rationalize the early DB gaps.
My head canon is that while the farmer had a ki size corresponding to a power level of 5, ki size being what the scouters measure, he was not a ki user and couldn't utilize his ki to its full extent, meaning he was just a regular person, and his effective PL was most probably in the low decimal places as you have him.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:05 pm

I have a question Dragonball power levels in the Daizenshuu. As far as I'm aware they didn't come directly from Toriyama so I'm curious how accurate they were. I think he "overlooked" the Daizenshuus but I find it hard to believe he would double check every piece of information and power level to make sure it was consistent with the manga. I think if he was that interested in power levels he would have shared them himself instead of having someone else do it and then double checking their work?

This leads me to wonder if Goku at the beginning of Dragonball was really only twice as high as the farmer. It's hard to believe considering his feats. He was able to repel bullets, carry Bulma's car, and one-shot the giant Bear Thief who could've probably taken down several average humans on his own. Mr. Satan seemed to be an above average martial artists so his power level would be higher than five. Yamcha lasted longer than the Bear Thief against Goku so overall:

Goku = 10 > Desert Bandit Yamcha > Bear Thief > Mr. Satan > Farmer = 5.

Could they all really fit in that tiny gap? In one panel of Jaco chapter 11 it showed Grandpa Gohan after he found Goku and he comments that it would've been dangerous if he wasn't a martial arts expert. It seems to imply that Goku was way above an average human even when he first met Grandpa Gohan if Gohan had at least had to use some effort to win against him. This is before he received all those years of training from Grandpa Gohan.

The other assumption before Jaco was released was Goku's PL being only two from the Bardock special. I'm still not sure about it because that would mean Goku only went from a power level of 2 or 10 in all the years he trained with Grandpa Gohan. What would his power level have been if he wasn't trained by Grandpa Gohan?
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:31 pm

The thing to remember is that these numbers that get tossed around and labeled "power levels" are really just a measurement of the raw amount of ki someone has at their disposal. It's not a measurement of anything else like skill, physical attributes, determination, or anything else that constitutes someone's overall ability for battle. Just raw amount of ki.

So at the start of the series, Goku has "only" about twice as much ki as an average adult human. But at this early point in his life and the story, where the powers at work are relatively very low and the amount and usage of ki isn't the driving force in fights yet, that doesn't really reflect his overall strength. We're retroactively told in at least once source (which one I can't quite remember and would have to look it up), that his being a Saiyan, with a naturally stronger and tougher Saiyan body, is to thank for his extraordinary feats of strength and durability. Which makes sense, even without the official mention. Even Saiyan babies are tough enough to live and thrive on a planet with 10x Earth's gravity.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:44 pm

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:18 am

Skar wrote:I have a question Dragonball power levels in the Daizenshuu. As far as I'm aware they didn't come directly from Toriyama so I'm curious how accurate they were. I think he "overlooked" the Daizenshuus but I find it hard to believe he would double check every piece of information and power level to make sure it was consistent with the manga. I think if he was that interested in power levels he would have shared them himself instead of having someone else do it and then double checking their work?

This leads me to wonder if Goku at the beginning of Dragonball was really only twice as high as the farmer. It's hard to believe considering his feats. He was able to repel bullets, carry Bulma's car, and one-shot the giant Bear Thief who could've probably taken down several average humans on his own. Mr. Satan seemed to be an above average martial artists so his power level would be higher than five. Yamcha lasted longer than the Bear Thief against Goku so overall:

Goku = 10 > Desert Bandit Yamcha > Bear Thief > Mr. Satan > Farmer = 5.

Could they all really fit in that tiny gap? In one panel of Jaco chapter 11 it showed Grandpa Gohan after he found Goku and he comments that it would've been dangerous if he wasn't a martial arts expert. It seems to imply that Goku was way above an average human even when he first met Grandpa Gohan if Gohan had at least had to use some effort to win against him. This is before he received all those years of training from Grandpa Gohan.

The other assumption before Jaco was released was Goku's PL being only two from the Bardock special. I'm still not sure about it because that would mean Goku only went from a power level of 2 or 10 in all the years he trained with Grandpa Gohan. What would his power level have been if he wasn't trained by Grandpa Gohan?
Mr. Satan and Bear Bandit should both have power levels of 5. Their advantage is physical strength, not ki. Mr. Satan is a 6'2, 210 pound muscular man with martial arts training. The Bear Bandit is a goddamned bear. Plus, Goku maneuvered around the bear using his small size and hit him in a weak spot, so he's not necessarily stronger.

Goku: 10
--Hungry: 9
--Starving: 6
Yamcha: 8
Mr. Satan: 5

You also have to remember that power level don't scale anywhere close to linearly. They never have. Piccolo's casual little beam takes out the moon. Someone actually went through the trouble of calculating the explosion and got 38 quadrillion megatons. It only takes 53 quadrillion megatons of TNT to destroy our planet. So, presumably, with full effort, Piccolo could bust the Earth. His power level was 408. By contrast, the strongest attack used by Piccolo Daimao was only in the single to double digit megatons range, with his casual blasts being in the hundreds of kilotons. His power level was 139+ according to the original manga and 260 according to Dazienshuu 7, Weekly Jump, and the SEG.

Compared to that, the jump between 5 (normal human) and 10 (lifting 1 ton with some effort, shrugging off a pistol bullet, running as fast as Usain Bolt) seems minuscule.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Skar » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:17 am

Kaboom wrote:The thing to remember is that these numbers that get tossed around and labeled "power levels" are really just a measurement of the raw amount of ki someone has at their disposal. It's not a measurement of anything else like skill, physical attributes, determination, or anything else that constitutes someone's overall ability for battle. Just raw amount of ki.
I see that makes sense. I figured training and sparing with Grandpa Gohan made Goku stronger not only improved his martial arts skills though. I think just by growing up from infant to a 12 year old Saiyan should have increased his ki naturally. If he was only 10 after training and sparing with Grandpa Gohan for many years how much would he have been if he never met Grandpa Gohan? For example if Goku crash landed in the desert and grew up on his own would his power level have been less than 10 by the time he reached the age of 12?
RandomGuy96 wrote:Mr. Satan and Bear Bandit should both have power levels of 5. Their advantage is physical strength, not ki. Mr. Satan is a 6'2, 210 pound muscular man with martial arts training. The Bear Bandit is a goddamned bear. Plus, Goku maneuvered around the bear using his small size and hit him in a weak spot, so he's not necessarily stronger.
I'm curious where the 5 comes from for the Farmer if he doesn't seem to have any ki control. I was thinking that's how much raw ki he had overall but didn't know how to utilize due to a lack of training. Does the power level of 5 represent the bare minimum for a living being? I mean would every living creature from an overweight man to a martial artist and from a bear to a dinosaur have the same raw power level on Earth? I'm not sure how strength and durability factor into power level but I think it plays some part in it since training in higher gravity increased their ki.
You also have to remember that power level don't scale anywhere close to linearly. They never have. Piccolo's casual little beam takes out the moon. Someone actually went through the trouble of calculating the explosion and got 38 quadrillion megatons. It only takes 53 quadrillion megatons of TNT to destroy our planet. So, presumably, with full effort, Piccolo could bust the Earth. His power level was 408. By contrast, the strongest attack used by Piccolo Daimao was only in the single to double digit megatons range, with his casual blasts being in the hundreds of kilotons. His power level was 139+ according to the original manga and 260 according to Dazienshuu 7, Weekly Jump, and the SEG.
Yeah I definitely agree with that. I've always been on the side that believes power levels only existed to show how meaningless they were. Power levels didn't scale linearly but they seemed to work that way with Kaioken and SSJ. Kaioken x2 was supposed to double his power, speed, etc and it resulted in double the power levels. An average human is 5 and Roshi was probably less than 200 in his max form when he destroyed the moon so he's definitely way more than 40x the power of an average human. Goku's power level going from 8,000 to 16,000 should've been like hundreds or thousands of times the power he had before. I guess it goes from exponential to linear or something after reaching a certain power level in the 1,000-10,000 range?
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:13 pm

Yeah I definitely agree with that. I've always been on the side that believes power levels only existed to show how meaningless they were. Power levels didn't scale linearly but they seemed to work that way with Kaioken and SSJ. Kaioken x2 was supposed to double his power, speed, etc and it resulted in double the power levels. An average human is 5 and Roshi was probably less than 200 in his max form when he destroyed the moon so he's definitely way more than 40x the power of an average human. Goku's power level going from 8,000 to 16,000 should've been like hundreds or thousands of times the power he had before. I guess it goes from exponential to linear or something after reaching a certain power level in the 1,000-10,000 range?
It's possible that the scouters just have trouble applying their system to people below 300 or so, or just consider every number a class rather than an actual measurement, resulting in everyone below, as an example, BOZ Piccolo, fitting in a very tight bracket, because they don't care much about having multiple tiers for piss weak fighters. This might also explain stuff like Piccolo Jr boasting that he's many times stronger than Daimao (which is true, looking at their destructive feats) yet not even having x2 the battle power.

Roshi is probably around 400-500, just like BOZ Piccolo. The weird thing is, BOZ Piccolo has a planet busting feat after fighting Raditz in the form of completely over killing the moon with a casual little beam (which again debunks the stupid notion that planet busting requires special techniques or knowledge). But back at the 23rd Budokai, he uses up a good deal of his power just creating an island-killing attack, which is something like a billion times weaker than his casual beam at the BOZ. His power level couldn't have jumped much, and it can't really be dismissed as an outlier because it's important to the plot (as much as city ---> island ---> large country would be better for power scaling, as opposed to city ---> planet). So did he finally cross the threshold where the scouter numbers start being somewhat relevant to actual power? Or was he still condensing the effects of his blast at the 23rd, like every fighter does, to avoid destroying the world he wants to rule?

Also note that, while the intent was probably to make BPs correlate with actual power past a certain point (as evidenced by the Kaio-ken and Freeza's percentages), Toriyama didn't think about things at all. Even if you ignore stuff like Cell proclaiming he'll bust the solar system, Toriyama's art means some things still won't scale linearly. An example of this is when SS Gotenks travels around the Earth. That scene is too slow to scale with Saiyan arc Goku's traveling speed or Saiyan arc Piccolo's reflexes, even if you only count it as a feat for Piccolo. It might also be worth pointing out that the guidebooks say regular ol' Super Saiyan gives x50 the battle power, while SS2 and SS3 provide x2 and x4 boosts to "strength" respectively.

Hmmm... now that I think about it, the "13,000,000 yottatons = small star busting = suppressed Pure Buu's SS2-tier Vanishing Ball"' calc/feat from OBD might actually scale, if not exactly, at least roughly (i.e. without like a x100 gap or something between the numbers and what they actually represent) in the battle power system with BOZ Piccolo already being a (small?) planet buster. If only by pure accident.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:43 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Also note that, while the intent was probably to make BPs correlate with actual power past a certain point (as evidenced by the Kaio-ken and Freeza's percentages), Toriyama didn't think about things at all. Even if you ignore stuff like Cell proclaiming he'll bust the solar system, Toriyama's art means some things still won't scale linearly. An example of this is when SS Gotenks travels around the Earth. That scene is too slow to scale with Saiyan arc Goku's traveling speed or Saiyan arc Piccolo's reflexes, even if you only count it as a feat for Piccolo. It might also be worth pointing out that the guidebooks say regular ol' Super Saiyan gives x50 the battle power, while SS2 and SS3 provide x2 and x4 boosts to "strength" respectively.
I don't think Toriyama himself took power levels very seriously. The idea seemed to just be higher number > lower number and then numbers became really inflated so he decided there wasn't a point in using them anymore. Then again they probably weren't intended to be used for long since all the Z fighters can sense energy. Once the villains who can't sense energy were defeated I guess there wasn't anyone left who had a use for a scouter.

I agree the feats in Dragonball aren't meant to scale linearly. I look at Dragonball as like mythology or a fairytale. The crazy feats are meant to be to any sort of scale. I've read it takes light about 1.2 seconds to travel to the moon from Earth. It only took Master Roshi's Kamehameha a few seconds to reach the moon when his power level was only a few hundreds. I'm not sure if there are any other factors involved but I'm pretty sure that would mean a character would only need to be a few times stronger than Roshi in order to move faster than light. We know even by the Buu saga they were still much, much slower than lightspeed since it still took a few minutes to travel from place to place and Goku still had use for the Instant Transmission on Earth. If he was faster than light he could reach any location on Earth in less time than it would take to concentrate on someone's energy in order to teleport to them.

I never understood their destructive feats. I understand they concentrate their energy to avoid destroying the Earth but what about when they slam someone into the ground? For example Goku kicked Vegeta and that sends Vegeta through a mountain then later ASSJ Vegeta kicks Semi-Perfect Cell and it does about the same damage. It happens a lot when someone knocks their opponent to the ground and it breaks through a mountain or leaves a small crater. If it requires more force and energy for ASSJ Vegeta to push back Semi-Perfect Cell than it is for Goku to push back Saiyan saga Vegeta then shouldn't there be a lot more damage to the Earth when they hit the ground? The Earth acts like a cushion that "breaks" their fall but I assume the more force they were hit with would require more Earth to slow them down. I'm not sure how it works exactly just something I've wondered about. If two equal sized comets came crashing down but one was moving at like several hundred times the speed of the other then wouldn't it cause way more damage to the Earth?
Hmmm... now that I think about it, the "13,000,000 yottatons = small star busting = suppressed Pure Buu's SS2-tier Vanishing Ball"' calc/feat from OBD might actually scale, if not exactly, at least roughly (i.e. without like a x100 gap or something between the numbers and what they actually represent) in the battle power system with BOZ Piccolo already being a (small?) planet buster. If only by pure accident.
I think it's cool how fans could quantity their feats by measuring the panels and whatever little information we're given. I'm not science savvy enough to understand all of it but it's fun to read.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:06 pm

Being slightly stronger doesn't always guaranty a win. And if Yamcha was only slightly stronger, then he wouldn't have showed his superiority that quickly. I mean, the Saibaiman didn't manage to land a single hit, and Yamcha was fast enough to catch him off-guard during the freaking fight... I don't, no, I can't see how this is only slightly stronger.
Yamcha didn't land a hit other, aside from that one Kamehameha. And you don't even need to be stronger than someone to just hit them once, like Yamcha did. You're also betraying your own logic here. Originally, it was "the Saibaman realized it couldn't win, therefore Yamcha is way stronger". When that was debunked, you went to "Yamcha was way stronger because he hit the Saibaman once and did no damage".
No, Toriyama said that Raditz is slightly stronger. There is a difference. And according to what Nappa said, being slightly stronger doesn't make a one-sided fight. Which is what the Yamcha vs Saibaiman was.
Which is completely irrelevant to what I actually said.

Yamcha vs Saibaman was barely a fight. It lasted about five seconds, with both fighters hitting the other exactly once.
The thing is, we can't know nor trust what Toriyama remembers. And the fact that Toriyama doesn't seem to care that much about the numbers, and also doesn't have a problem in leaving things for others to do, we can't know if he actually had anything to do with those numbers.
If he doesn't care that much about numbers, and you acknowledge he wasn't paying much attention when you made them, then why are you going with this gap-based "well he was x1.2 stronger therefore slightly could not have possibly been the right word for anyone to use because at a x1.128 gap you can stomp because it happened that one time" brand of 'logic'?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:07 am

My questions never get answers in these parts :(.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:44 am

Here's me trying a super-minimalist list. Still got base saiyans > Freeza by the Cell Games :-/
Spoiler:
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:56 am

You weren't trying very hard to be minimalist.

1: why is Android arc SS Goku over twice as strong as future Trunks in the Mecha arc? 50% future 17 < SS future Gohan < SS future Trunks < SS Goku < future 17 is stated.

2: why are 19 and 20 so strong? Post-absorption 19 was strong enough to make SS Vegeta bleed, yet SS Vegeta still says that post-absorption 19 wasn't as strong as future Trunks made the androids out to be. He only said that the androids were way stronger than him. So post-absorption 19, who shouldn't be extremely far off from SS Vegeta, is indirectly stated as being unable to curb-stomp SS future Trunks from the Mecha arc. Going your numbers, he could one-shot Trunks.

3: Android 18 explicitly stated she was going to use her full power against Vegeta, and Vegeta was still able to take a beating and put scratches on her. It's not that huge of a gap, as indicated by 17 saying that Vegeta + Trunks + Piccolo would be too much for 18.

4: 2nd form Cell is way, way higher than he needs to be from a truly minimalist POV. That gap could be as small as x1.5. There's also nothing saying that Semi-Cell's initial level against Vegeta was the same power he used against 16.

5: also, 16 appeared to be a hair weaker than Imperfect Cell in their fight, so that can also help a potential minimalist.

6: initial Perfect Cell vs Vegeta. Moving so fast that your opponent can't see you and then three-shotting them is perfectly doable at a x1.5 gap. Don't get too excessive.

7: the gap between 50% Goku and SSG2 Vegeta is also quite excessive. He just said that Goku was stronger than him. That doesn't have to mean he can one-shot Vegeta. Especially since the power he displayed was quite possibly slightly more than 50%.

And that's just the Cell arc. Nice to see that you paid attention to my last comments on the Imperfect Cell vs Kamiccolo and Perfect Cell vs Gohan fights, though.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:09 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:You weren't trying very hard to be minimalist.

1: why is Android arc SS Goku over twice as strong as future Trunks in the Mecha arc? 50% future 17 < SS future Gohan < SS future Trunks < SS Goku < future 17 is stated.

2: why are 19 and 20 so strong? Post-absorption 19 was strong enough to make SS Vegeta bleed, yet SS Vegeta still says that post-absorption 19 wasn't as strong as future Trunks made the androids out to be. He only said that the androids were way stronger than him. So post-absorption 19, who shouldn't be extremely far off from SS Vegeta, is indirectly stated as being unable to curb-stomp SS future Trunks from the Mecha arc. Going your numbers, he could one-shot Trunks.

3: Android 18 explicitly stated she was going to use her full power against Vegeta, and Vegeta was still able to take a beating and put scratches on her. It's not that huge of a gap, as indicated by 17 saying that Vegeta + Trunks + Piccolo would be too much for 18.

4: 2nd form Cell is way, way higher than he needs to be from a truly minimalist POV. That gap could be as small as x1.5. There's also nothing saying that Semi-Cell's initial level against Vegeta was the same power he used against 16.

5: also, 16 appeared to be a hair weaker than Imperfect Cell in their fight, so that can also help a potential minimalist.

6: initial Perfect Cell vs Vegeta. Moving so fast that your opponent can't see you and then three-shotting them is perfectly doable at a x1.5 gap. Don't get too excessive.

7: the gap between 50% Goku and SSG2 Vegeta is also quite excessive. He just said that Goku was stronger than him. That doesn't have to mean he can one-shot Vegeta. Especially since the power he displayed was quite possibly slightly more than 50%.

And that's just the Cell arc. Nice to see that you paid attention to my last comments on the Imperfect Cell vs Kamiccolo and Perfect Cell vs Gohan fights, though.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll get on that probably tomorrow. I'll be honest I actually haven't read the Android arc in a while so their was a couple things I didn't remember. How's the Boo arc?
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by xmysticgohanx » Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:49 pm

Honestly, I think minimalist lists are the best way to go about making pl lists.

btw @randomguy96 I'm interested in seeing your current pl list
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
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