Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I too like the idea of minimalistic lists, a lot easier on the eyes, but unrealistic imo. Look at all the ridiculous bloating in the Saiyan/Namek arc where main characters get tens to hundreds to thousands of times stronger, and then in the Cell-Boo arc everything just randomly switches over to minimalistic/small gains/small gaps. I find it hard to believe Goku got 7,211x stronger in the first year of DBZ but less than 3x stronger during the 3 years of hard training for the Androids. Just doesn't seem likely.

[Darkron2151]

I too like the idea of minimalistic lists, a lot easier on the eyes, but unrealistic imo. Look at all the ridiculous bloating in the Saiyan/Namek arc where main characters get tens to hundreds to thousands of times stronger, and then in the Cell-Boo arc everything just randomly switches over to minimalistic/small gains/small gaps. I find it hard to believe Goku got 7,211x stronger in the first year of DBZ but less than 3x stronger during the 3 years of hard training for the Androids. Just doesn't seem likely.

Well, BOG made it quite clear that Freeza > Base Goku. And since Goku was only 3 million on Namek, that means Goku didn't even get 40x stronger during the 17 years after the fight with Freeza, as opposed to the " getting 7,211x stronger in a little over a year". Just because it doesn't seem likely, doesn't mean it can't happen, and in this case, it DID happen.

List coming soon!

[Kamiccolo9]

View training gains as additive, rather than multiplicative. It makes much more sense, and is way more realistic.

[Saiga]

Another thing is, I believe that the stronger you get the harder it becomes to continue raising your strength, which is why new training methods are constantly needed.

[RandomGuy96]

Thanks for the feedback, I'll get on that probably tomorrow. I'll be honest I actually haven't read the Android arc in a while so their was a couple things I didn't remember. How's the Boo arc?

Buu arc looks mostly fine, aside from a few subjective things that I disagree on. There are a few errors, though, such as:

-Kaioshin is supposed to be stronger than Piccolo.
-Fat Buu can't be very close to Goku, since Goku tanked his punch while smiling.
-Mr. Buu was able to put up a fight against Pure Buu. That puts them in the same tier, at least.

unrealistic

Wait.

What?

Look at all the ridiculous bloating in the Saiyan/Namek arc where main characters get tens to hundreds to thousands of times stronger,

This pretty much only happens in the Freeza arc, and even then only because of near-death power-ups and magical potential boosters that never show up again. The progression between the start of the series and Raditz' arrival is very minimalist (>5 ---> <416). The Saiyan arc itself is less minimalist, but still not that insane (main villain with PL of <408 ---> main villain with power level of 18,000).

and then in the Cell-Boo arc everything just randomly switches over to minimalistic/small gains/small gaps.

It's more like the series was always "minimalist", but then Freeza came along and bloated things, before the series went back to relatively small power gaps.

I find it hard to believe Goku got 7,211x stronger in the first year of DBZ but less than 3x stronger during the 3 years of hard training for the Androids.

Again, that was due entirely to a series of zenkai boosts in the Freeza arc. There was more than a x6,600 difference between the main villain of the last arc and the main villain of that arc. By contrast, if you look at the series as a whole before that point... well, Goku was 10 at the beginning. By the Saiyan arc, he is 8,000 in base, and can comfortably maintain 16,000 (KK x3 and KK x4 are limited, so aren't really his own power so much as special techniques like the Kamehameha IMO). That's only a x160 jump. Over the course of 7-8 arcs (Pilaf, 21st Budokai, RR Army, Baba, 22nd Budokai, Piccolo Daimao, 23rd Budokai, Saiyan). One single arc giving a disproportionate power-up based on a plot device that never shows up again (x9,375 jump from the last arc) doesn't automatically invalidate that, or provide any good reasons for the next two arcs to bloat that much.

btw @randomguy96 I'm interested in seeing your current pl list

Hasn't changed any since last time:https://docs.google.com/document/d/101X ... MOv_0c/pub

I'm thinking about making some small changes, though.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I too like the idea of minimalistic lists, a lot easier on the eyes, but unrealistic imo. Look at all the ridiculous bloating in the Saiyan/Namek arc where main characters get tens to hundreds to thousands of times stronger, and then in the Cell-Boo arc everything just randomly switches over to minimalistic/small gains/small gaps. I find it hard to believe Goku got 7,211x stronger in the first year of DBZ but less than 3x stronger during the 3 years of hard training for the Androids. Just doesn't seem likely.

Well, BOG made it quite clear that Freeza > Base Goku. And since Goku was only 3 million on Namek, that means Goku didn't even get 40x stronger during the 17 years after the fight with Freeza, as opposed to the " getting 7,211x stronger in a little over a year". Just because it doesn't seem likely, doesn't mean it can't happen, and in this case, it DID happen.

List coming soon!

I wouldn't say 'made it clear', it was a vague statement. BoG also tried telling us Mai was 12 during the beginning of DB, and Bulma is magically what, 4 (?) years younger now. I don't take BoG seriously, it's a retconned in lazily put together, plot-hole riddled mess. It's OK as a movie, but they clearly didn't thoroughly check the manga that well, based on the number of contradictions to the manga. The manga and daiz tell us Base Kids ~ C18, and Base Saiyans > Kaioshin >>>>>>>>>>>> Freeza.

[Saiga]

RandomGuy, do you believe that all the Kaioshin sans East could have pulled out the Z Sword? Because that's what your numbers seem to show, and that seems a little weird to me. I can buy South or Dai being exceptions but if the current generation sans East could all do it it just seems rather strange.

If we go off filler I definitely think North, as a sword fighter, would be interested in trying.

[RandomGuy96]

RandomGuy, do you believe that all the Kaioshin sans East could have pulled out the Z Sword? Because that's what your numbers seem to show, and that seems a little weird to me. I can buy South or Dai being exceptions but if the current generation sans East could all do it it just seems rather strange.

If we go off filler I definitely think North, as a sword fighter, would be interested in trying.

I think that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 at the time, so only South could have managed to free the sword. So, the minimum power level for being able to free the sword could be 5 billion or something (Gohan seemed to struggle a bit), which would mean Gohan at 5.6 billion would be able to pull it, but not any of the Kaioshin bar southy, as they are all around 2-3 billion. I think this fits with the comment that numerous Kaioshin tried to pull the sword. If South Kaioshin himself tried, you'd think that Kibito would say that all of the Kaioshin tried, or that the strongest did.

If I was going to bring a bit of fanon into it, I'd say that maybe two or three of the five tried. North tried due to his interest in swords, as shown by his anime appearance, and East tried in a failed attempt to get strong enough to fight Boo after the other Kaioshin were slaughtered. West may or may not have tried. Dai Kaioshin didn't try, because he was busy doing Dai Kaioshin stuff, and didn't seem like much of a fighter to begin with. South Kaioshin didn't try because he was already the strongest being in the universe by far, and didn't see the need to do it. Either that or he just didn't buy the myth.

Alternatively:

//South Kaioshin hears that Majin Boo is on the loose and has already taken out West and North Kaioshin//

"Aw damn, this could be trouble."

//Effortlessly pulls out the Z-Sword//

"Hmmm... don't feel any stronger. Guess that's a dead end."

//Puts it back, goes to fight Boo without it.//

[Kaboom]

Another thing is, I believe that the stronger you get the harder it becomes to continue raising your strength, which is why new training methods are constantly needed.

View training gains as additive, rather than multiplicative. It makes much more sense, and is way more realistic.

Seconded on both counts, and the two points work together. Any training method will become gradually less effective over time, and that combined with viewing training gains as multiplicative instead of additive can unintentionally make impressive gains look minuscule when they're really actually quite good.

If Goku starts at 10 and discovers a new training method that gets him up to 50 in a year, that would be a big 5x increase. But if then he trains the exact same way for another year and gets the exact same amount of power out of it, which puts him up at 90... uh-oh, this time he didn't even double his power. And that's not even considering that the training would become easier for him and actually net him less strength.

So saying, "Goku got several thousands of times stronger in about a year, so he MUST have become at least 40x stronger over the next ten-ish years" is kind of a flawed and impractical way of looking at it.

I don't take BoG seriously, it's a retconned in lazily put together, plot-hole riddled mess. It's OK as a movie, but they clearly didn't thoroughly check the manga that well, based on the number of contradictions to the manga. The manga and Daizenshuu tell us Base Kids ~ C18, and Base Saiyans > Kaioshin >>>>>>>>>>>> Freeza.

Those are just conclusions and interpretations that certain fans have decided for themselves at the least, and retconned guidebook tidbits at the most. Either way, Toriyama isn't under any obligation to hold to them.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't see why training has to be additive. The stronger you are the harder you can train. Piccolo got like over 50x stronger at the very least during the 3 years, but now after tens of years Goku's training gains come up basically fruitless? Just look at the gaps in the Cell arc;

USSJ Trunks > Warm-up Cell >> ASSJ Vegeta >> Semi-Perfect Cell >> Android 16 >> Kamiccolo ~ Android 17 > Android 18 >> SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) ~ > SSJ Goku (android arc)

then Goku comes out of the RoSaT and blows all of that away with 50% of his power (yes, I'm a believer of 50% Goku > USSJ Trunks, or at the very least 50% ~ USSJ), then his 100% is twice as strong as that, and Kid Gohan is even stronger than that, and then Goku surpasses Kid Gohan in the Boo arc.

I don't think Goku has a limit when it comes to training, but to each his own.

[Kaboom]

I don't see why training has to be additive. The stronger you are the harder you can train. Piccolo got like over 50x stronger at the very least during the 3 years, but now after tens of years Goku's training gains come up basically fruitless?

Nobody's calling his training "fruitless" or denying that he got a lot stronger. Only saying that if you measure training gains in terms of multiplication, it can make really good increases unduly seem small. Which in my experience is the primary "problem" people cite with the notion of base Goku still being weaker than 100% Freeza during the Boo arc.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo got like over 50x stronger at the very least during the 3 years, but now after tens of years Goku's training gains come up basically fruitless? Just look at the gaps in the Cell arc;

I don't think anyone needs to tell you that Piccolo's gains via pure training were much larger than Goku's, as demonstrated by the fact that he was stronger than base Goku at all. And getting ten or twenty times stronger in 12 years and two arcs (x160 to x240 counting his SS3 and SS2 transformations) is hardly "fruitless". Assuming toddler Goku had a power level of 8 or something (leaving some room to jump to 10 at the beginning of the series), that'd mean he "only" made a gain of around x50 in fifteen or sixteen whole years of his life.

USSJ Trunks > Warm-up Cell >> ASSJ Vegeta >> Semi-Perfect Cell >> Android 16 >> Kamiccolo ~ Android 17 > Android 18 >> SSJ Vegeta (Android arc) ~ > SSJ Goku (android arc)

That's not necessarily that huge of a power jump. There's a x6 difference between SS Goku and SSG3 Trunks.

then Goku comes out of the RoSaT and blows all of that away with 50% of his power (yes, I'm a believer of 50% Goku > USSJ Trunks, or at the very least 50% ~ USSJ),

First of all, it was "about half", which can mean 55% or something if you prefer. Second, initial SS Goku > SSG3 Trunks isn't set in stone. Third... so? That's still not that huge of a jump.

then his 100% is twice as strong as that, and Kid Gohan is even stronger than that, and then Goku surpasses Kid Gohan in the Boo arc.

Still not that big of a jump.

[Darkron2151]

I wouldn't say 'made it clear', it was a vague statement. BoG also tried telling us Mai was 12 during the beginning of DB, and Bulma is magically what, 4 (?) years younger now. I don't take BoG seriously, it's a retconned in lazily put together, plot-hole riddled mess. It's OK as a movie, but they clearly didn't thoroughly check the manga that well, based on the number of contradictions to the manga. The manga and daiz tell us Base Kids ~ C18, and Base Saiyans > Kaioshin >>>>>>>>>>>> Freeza.

Parts in the manga ITSELF contradict the manga, so what's your point? And that statement is anything but "vague". Beerus examines Goku and then says that he's weaker than Freeza and he needs Super Saiyan in order to beat him (just a paraphrase). How does it get any clear-cut than that. And I "re-read" the fight between 18 and the boys, and to my understanding, the Kids got trashed.....kind of. Before they went Super Saiyan, they didn't even land one hit on 18, even when she was suppressed. The only thing they could do was barely block some hits and get thrashed about when they traded blows for like, 2 panels. Even without the disguise, the same thing would've probably happened. Then they turn Super Saiyan and 18 is scared straight of a suppressed ki blast. And when was Base Saiyans > Kaioshin EVER stated? Kaioshin only showed inferiority when they were Super Saiyans, and Kaioshin is shown to be way stronger than Piccolo, which I seriously doubt even the Base Saiyans could compare to, as implied in the Cell Games.

[Skar]

Here's me trying a super-minimalist list. Still got base saiyans > Freeza by the Cell Games :-/

I always theorized that the 50x multiplier for SSJ only referred to the bare minimum of that form. As they train in SSJ it allows them to further power-up from there. If SSJ was a set multiplier then why not just train in base all the time? I know someone will say "the added strain in SSJ helps in their training" but from what we saw Goku realized he could make SSJ more efficient and gained more power by getting used to the form and removing the strain. The strain was actually inhibiting their training not helping it. I think the only reason they would train directly in SSJ is because it improves the form itself which can't be done by training in base only

Also we see them be able to power-up and down in SSJ. With a set multiplier I'm pretty sure SSJ would always remain 50x base. Powering down to cause them to revert back to base. For example Oozaru and Kaioken were multipliers so that's probably how they work. If Goku was using Kaioken x5 then trying to suppress his power would revert to a lower level of Kaioken or back to base.

I see it like this:
Cell Games Goku: Base X 50 = bare minimum SSJ + powering-up with energy he gained from training and mastering SSJ = FPSSJ

That way Goku would always be at least 50x base in SSJ no matter how suppressed he is. When he showed off 50% of his power was that 25x multiplier or 50% of the energy he gained from training on top of the 50x multiplier? I'd say it's the latter. That way the Saiyans could get massively stronger over time without their base having to surpass Frieza.

I know the guidebooks just give a multiplier of 50x but they're not exactly 100% reliable since Toriyama doesn't seem to take them seriously or even check if they're consistent with his recent work. I asked this question but it was ignored. The Daizenshuu states Goku's PL at the beginning of Dragonball was only 10 so double a normal human like the farmer. That was after years of training under Grandpa Gohan. What would his power level have been if he didn't train with Grandpa Gohan all those years? Seven? Eight? Nine? It seems to contradict what we learn in his panel of Jaco the Patrolman:

Grandpa Gohan seems to be impressed by Goku's strength even as a toddler and mentions that he would've had trouble if he wasn't a master martial artist. Even if Goku had a power level of 10 when he first arrived on Earth that would've been nothing to one of the strongest fighters on Earth at the time. I'd say either Goku got weaker over time to the point where it dropped down to 10 by the age of 12 or he was never that weak to begin with.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Grandpa Gohan seems to be impressed by Goku's strength even as a toddler and mentions that he would've had trouble if he wasn't a master martial artist. Even if Goku had a power level of 10 when he first arrived on Earth that would've been nothing to one of the strongest fighters on Earth at the time. I'd say either Goku got weaker over time to the point where it dropped down to 10 by the age of 12 or he was never that weak to begin with.

Battle powers are purely a representation of the ki a person has. Goku, as a Saiyan, would still likely be much stronger physically than pretty much any normal human on earth. Especially in Jaco, where he lived on planet Vegeta with the higher gravity for ~3 years (albeit in a pod).

[RandomGuy96]

I always theorized that the 50x multiplier for SSJ only referred to the bare minimum of that form. As they train in SSJ it allows them to further power-up from there. If SSJ was a set multiplier then why not just train in base all the time? I

That's pretty much what they do. The only exception was during the Cell Games, where Goku and Gohan trained in their Super Saiyan forms to get used to them.

I know someone will say "the added strain in SSJ helps in their training" but from what we saw Goku realized he could make SSJ more efficient and gained more power by getting used to the form and removing the strain. The strain was actually inhibiting their training not helping it. I think the only reason they would train directly in SSJ is because it improves the form itself which can't be done by training in base only

Nothing suggests the boost actually gets bigger. You'd think that'd be mentioned somewhere. In fact, Goku specifically rejects training that focuses on boosting the power of the form itself.

Also we see them be able to power-up and down in SSJ. With a set multiplier I'm pretty sure SSJ would always remain 50x base. Powering down to cause them to revert back to base. For example Oozaru and Kaioken were multipliers so that's probably how they work. If Goku was using Kaioken x5 then trying to suppress his power would revert to a lower level of Kaioken or back to base.

There's zero reason they couldn't just suppress their SS power like they could regularly.

That way Goku would always be at least 50x base in SSJ no matter how suppressed he is. When he showed off 50% of his power was that 25x multiplier or 50% of the energy he gained from training on top of the 50x multiplier? I'd say it's the latter. That way the Saiyans could get massively stronger over time without their base having to surpass Freeza.

Getting twenty or thirty times stronger in ten years IS massively stronger.

I know the guidebooks just give a multiplier of 50x but they're not exactly 100% reliable since Toriyama doesn't seem to take them seriously or even check if they're consistent with his recent work. I asked this question but it was ignored. The Daizenshuu states Goku's PL at the beginning of Dragonball was only 10 so double a normal human like the farmer. That was after years of training under Grandpa Gohan. What would his power level have been if he didn't train with Grandpa Gohan all those years? Seven? Eight? Nine? It seems to contradict what we learn in his panel of Jaco the Patrolman:

It doesn't contradict anything. Power levels don't scale linearly, as I've repeatedly explained. Toddler Goku could be, say, a seven. That'd still be enough to be considered very dangerous to Average Joes.

Grandpa Gohan seems to be impressed by Goku's strength even as a toddler and mentions that he would've had trouble if he wasn't a master martial artist. Even if Goku had a power level of 10 when he first arrived on Earth that would've been nothing to one of the strongest fighters on Earth at the time. I'd say either Goku got weaker over time to the point where it dropped down to 10 by the age of 12 or he was never that weak to begin with.

That just means that Goku is stronger than Average Joes. Actually, it doesn't even mean that. It just means that Goku could possibly cause some trouble to Average Joes.

[Saiga]

I really wouldn't compare Piccolo's potential Android arc gains with anybody else's training. While it's not certain how strong he got, it's potentially a massive outlier.

@RandomGuy Oh, right. Yeah, that all makes sense.

[Skar]

Battle powers are purely a representation of the ki a person has. Goku, as a Saiyan, would still likely be much stronger physically than pretty much any normal human on earth. Especially in Jaco, where he lived on planet Vegeta's higher gravity for ~3 years (albeit in a pod).

I thought physical strength was somewhat factored into ki? They train in higher gravity and with weights which seems to improve their ki. Why would an average human with no serious training have a PL of 5 and a Saiyan who lived in higher gravity for a few years have a PL less than that? I think Goku should've arrived on Earth with a PL higher than 5. If he was already physically strong enough to give Grandpa Gohan some trouble then nine years of formal training should've helped him better control his power and make him even stronger.

That's pretty much what they do. The only exception was during the Cell Games, where Goku and Gohan trained in their Super Saiyan forms to get used to them.

I figured Goku trained in SSJ since he achieved it in the Frieza saga. He learned how to transform at will on Yardrat so which I guess could've required some practice in SSJ. I think the difference is that Goku realized they should remove the strain and that would allow them to train more efficiently. Before that they were just pushing themselves in SSJ. That's what I think anyway.

There's zero reason they couldn't just suppress their SS power like they could regularly.

If transforming automatically makes them 50x stronger how would they suppress it below that? Base is their starting point so they can suppress it almost down to zero.

Getting twenty or thirty times stronger in ten years IS massively stronger.

Well if Cell was supposed to be a solar system buster he would need to trillions of times stronger than Frieza . Assuming he was going to wipe out the entire solar system with one wide blast instead of just hitting the sun but I don't know how much stronger he'd need to be to just do that. Power levels were linear with Kaioken so the scale seemed to change after a certain power level. I don't think Cell was that strong but his statement can't be true if he's only 20 or 30x times stronger than Frieza.

It doesn't contradict anything. Power levels don't scale linearly, as I've repeatedly explained. Toddler Goku could be, say, a seven. That'd still be enough to be considered very dangerous to Average Joes.

Dangerous to an Average Joe shouldn't be dangerous to one of Roshi's strongest students. If Roshi was 139 how strong was Grandpa Gohan?

[ZombieVito]

If Roshi was 139 how strong was Grandpa Gohan?

30 at the time of his death.

Remeber Roshi had 139 after 3 years of training for the 22nd TB.

[RandomGuy96]

I figured Goku trained in SSJ since he achieved it in the Freeza saga. He learned how to transform at will on Yardrat so which I guess could've required some practice in SSJ. I think the difference is that Goku realized they should remove the strain and that would allow them to train more efficiently. Before that they were just pushing themselves in SSJ. That's what I think anyway.

Again, there's no evidence for this, and therefore no reason to disregard official information.

If transforming automatically makes them 50x stronger how would they suppress it below that? Base is their starting point so they can suppress it almost down to zero.

Uh, why couldn't they? Transforming gives them a big power boost, but it's not like they suddenly can't control that power.

Well if Cell was supposed to be a solar system buster he would need to trillions of times stronger than Freeza . Assuming he was going to wipe out the entire solar system with one wide blast instead of just hitting the sun but I don't know how much stronger he'd need to be to just do that. Power levels were linear with Kaioken so the scale seemed to change after a certain power level.

Well, first we'd need to know how strong Freeza was. If Cell's Solar Kamehaeha could bust the Sun, it would be equivalent to 165,000,000 yottatons of TNT. Assuming his technique multiplied his power by about two, Cell would be able to dish out and survive 90,000,000 yottatons normally. I have Cell x60 stronger than Freeza, so Freeza would need to be able to routinely dish out and survive 1,500,000 yottatons. This is assuming that power levels scale linearly, of course, when they're outright shown not to. I think Freeza would only rest in the range of a few hundred yottatons, myself. Maybe a bit more with amplified attacks.

Kaio-Ken is evidence that Toriyama just didn't pay attention to destructive power feats. Piccolo Daimao was exhausted after using city-busting levels of energy. Yet Piccolo Jr was a planet-buster at the beginning of DBZ despite not even having twice his dad's battle power.

I don't think Cell was that strong but his statement can't be true if he's only 20 or 30x times stronger than Freeza.

He wouldn't mean only tens of times stronger, but his battle power would only be tens of times more.

Dangerous to an Average Joe shouldn't be dangerous to one of Roshi's strongest students. If Roshi was 139 how strong was Grandpa Gohan?

He never said Goku was dangerous to him. He only said that Goku WOULD have been dangerous if he WASN'T a martial artist. Which he was.