Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Marco Polo wrote:
That's just Toei inconsistency. If it were a form that he can transform out of, why does he turn it off in that first screenshot, yet he doesn't for the whole duration of the "Uub Arc"?
We're talking about how the Ultimate form functioned specifically in movie 13. How it works in the Uub Arc or for that matter anywhere else is a completely different issue.
It was clear that for movie 13 Toei took the "power up like a SSJ and thrown in a kiai" thing and extrapolated the Ultimate form into an alternative to SSJ.
As far I know, it is a separate transformation. But there has been no proper explanation as how the form itself works
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Why would it be a transformation if Elder Kaioshin specifically stated that transforming is bad and that this powerup will get rid of transformations for Gohan?
RandomGuy96 wrote:Again, if that was true, then his statement that no one in the afterlife was strong enough to fuse with him wouldn't make any sense.
Technically it does make sense. Because if you think about it that Goku has to lower his battle power down to something like 100 to fuse then if we imagine the formula for fusion being something like (x + y) * 8 = z. The resulting fusion will not be a benefit to Goku. Because the resulting fusion would be 1,600. Much weaker than the tens of millions Goku already has by himself. Having two characters of similar strengths benefits the fusion because it will always result in a fusion stronger than the two individuals.
Lowering one's power drastically wouldn't work. One of the requirements for the Fusion Dance is that the two individuals have to be similar in power to begin with, and then matching their powers exactly is part of how the technique is actually performed. So if Goku thought that he and Gohan could still do the Fusion Dance, then...
1) Either Toriyama or Goku forgot about that particular limitation...
2) Gohan's "Ultimate" state works like a transformation, and his "base" power is still similar to Goku's, or...
3) Inversely, Goku's absolute maximum at Super Saiyan 3 is "close enough" to Ultimate Gohan's own max power.
Kaboom wrote:Lowering one's power drastically wouldn't work. One of the requirements for the Fusion Dance is that the two individuals have to be similar in power to begin with, and then matching their powers exactly is part of how the technique is actually performed. So if Goku thought that he and Gohan could still do the Fusion Dance, then...
1) Either Toriyama or Goku forgot about that particular limitation...
2) Gohan's "Ultimate" state works like a transformation, and his "base" power is still similar to Goku's, or...
3) Inversely, Goku's absolute maximum at Super Saiyan 3 is "close enough" to Ultimate Gohan's own max power.
The way it's approached later makes it seem pretty likely that it's #1. Even though Gohan's hair isn't consistent following his power-up, there's that change with how Toriyama starts drawing Gohan's eyes following the event that persists throughout the rest of the manga, even when he's in a "resting" state. If it weren't a permanent power-up, and instead just a transformation that he could power up into and out of like Super Saiya-jin, then it wouldn't make sense to draw his eyes differently when in his non-transformed state.
Kaboom wrote:Lowering one's power drastically wouldn't work. One of the requirements for the Fusion Dance is that the two individuals have to be similar in power to begin with, and then matching their powers exactly is part of how the technique is actually performed. So if Goku thought that he and Gohan could still do the Fusion Dance, then...
1) Either Toriyama or Goku forgot about that particular limitation...
2) Gohan's "Ultimate" state works like a transformation, and his "base" power is still similar to Goku's, or...
3) Inversely, Goku's absolute maximum at Super Saiyan 3 is "close enough" to Ultimate Gohan's own max power.
#3 is definitely not the case, because SS3 Goku with SS2 Vegeta would definitely die against Evil Boo (according to what Goku himself said), while U. Gohan can easily kill Evil Boo... nothing similar there.
About #1, in-universe, it means that both Goku and Rou Kaioshin somehow forgot about how Fusion works, and there is absolutely no reason to think that Toriyama forgot about it either.
#2 is what BoG supports, and what makes the most sense (unless if you want unnecessary plot-holes), so I'll go by that.
Darkprince410 wrote:The way it's approached later makes it seem pretty likely that it's #1. Even though Gohan's hair isn't consistent following his power-up, there's that change with how Toriyama starts drawing Gohan's eyes following the event that persists throughout the rest of the manga, even when he's in a "resting" state. If it weren't a permanent power-up, and instead just a transformation that he could power up into and out of like Super Saiya-jin, then it wouldn't make sense to draw his eyes differently when in his non-transformed state.
The fully out-lined eyes staying permanent can easily be a side-effect of the ritual.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I don't know, Toriyama forgetting that detail of fusion doesn't sound too surprising. I actually think that's what happened, but of course that doesn't give an in-universe explanation so I don't know what to believe for that.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Saiga wrote:I don't know, Toriyama forgetting that detail of fusion doesn't sound too surprising. I actually think that's what happened, but of course that doesn't give an in-universe explanation so I don't know what to believe for that.
It could easily be the case, but it only contradicts a fan-theory, not the manga. The "Gohan lost Super Saiyan after getting Ultimate" is a fan-theory, not a fact.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I think that the Ultimate "form" is now Gohan's base form/state. Rou Kaioshin has always been mentioning how he can unlock one's true hidden power implying a similar but way more efficient (questionable) ability than Guru's.
To me, it works like gauges, meaning one's entire power is a tube that can be filled with water (Ki) up to a certain level. Say arbitrarily that Gohan's gauge can contain at most 100 units but in his base form, something at about 1 blocks any more water to be contained. Therefore, transforming to SSJ and SSJ2 allows him to remove that thing and to make it block at resp. 50 and 100. Transforming into SSJ2 allows him to reach the maximum capacity of his gauge. After the ritual, Gohan has been granted access to all his latent power in his base form, meaning that the blocky-thing has been entirely removed from the gauge (or let's say, has been pushed to the maximum level of 100, see later why). So he can simply power-up and charge his Ki up to fill the entire tube to a level of 100. As for why his hairstyle might change in and out battles, it is simply explained by the fact that he's focusing/concentrating or not, making the hair straighter due to the energy flowing out of his body.
But then, why have we seen him transforming to SSJ later on? My explanation is that due to his lack of training, the blocky-thing has been moved back to block at, say, 80. It is exactly like that, Ultimate state or not, that a body functions. If you don't use it, you'll loose some of your abilities and you'll have to train to get back what you've lost. There can also be the fact that Gohan is still young and that we can presume a Saiyajin latent power might increase over time, thus extending Gohan's gauge to a true maximum of, say again, 110. So years after his power-up and his Ultimate state achieved, he now has a gauge of 110 out of which he can only access 80. Thus transforming into SSJ let him tap into those 30 remaining units. Maybe if he redoes the ritual, he'll be again able to access 110 in base, and training will let him follow the natural evolution of his latent power.
Darkprince410 wrote:The way it's approached later makes it seem pretty likely that it's #1. Even though Gohan's hair isn't consistent following his power-up, there's that change with how Toriyama starts drawing Gohan's eyes following the event that persists throughout the rest of the manga, even when he's in a "resting" state. If it weren't a permanent power-up, and instead just a transformation that he could power up into and out of like Super Saiya-jin, then it wouldn't make sense to draw his eyes differently when in his non-transformed state.
The fully out-lined eyes staying permanent can easily be a side-effect of the ritual.
All the same, that still implies some form of transformation to his body that he's constantly going around in, which supports it being a permanent change.
As for Rou Kaioushin "forgetting" the requirements for the Fusion Dance, do we really even know he knows them? The information he gives in regards to what he knows about the Dance doesn't seem to be anything deeper than what one could get simply by observing the boys, so we don't know if he knows the requirements.
Darkprince410 wrote:The way it's approached later makes it seem pretty likely that it's #1. Even though Gohan's hair isn't consistent following his power-up, there's that change with how Toriyama starts drawing Gohan's eyes following the event that persists throughout the rest of the manga, even when he's in a "resting" state. If it weren't a permanent power-up, and instead just a transformation that he could power up into and out of like Super Saiya-jin, then it wouldn't make sense to draw his eyes differently when in his non-transformed state.
The fully out-lined eyes staying permanent can easily be a side-effect of the ritual.
All the same, that still implies some form of transformation to his body that he's constantly going around in, which supports it being a permanent change.
As for Rou Kaioushin "forgetting" the requirements for the Fusion Dance, do we really even know he knows them? The information he gives in regards to what he knows about the Dance doesn't seem to be anything deeper than what one could get simply by observing the boys, so we don't know if he knows the requirements.
He should know about fusion dance requirements as he knew showed Goku a crystal ball to see how did the fusion dance practice and training go down with Piccolo.
English is not my first language!
I'm still waiting for Dragon Ball in Super...
Low Tone G wrote:
He should know about fusion dance requirements as he knew showed Goku a crystal ball to see how did the fusion dance practice and training go down with Piccolo.
That's what I mean though. He'd know about them needing to synch up their battle powers and the actual dance steps, but he wouldn't necessarily know that they need to be of near equal strength to begin with before synching up (if that truly is a requirement). The only time that it's mentioned that they need to be of similar body shape and strength is when Goku first talks about the dance, well before Rou Kaioushin is released.
