Skar wrote:Gohan transformed to SSJ to increase his strength in order to pull out the Z Sword so it might've been harder to pull it out than wield it normally since he did that in base.
True good points. Turning SSJ amplified his physical strength with ki and allowed him to pull it out but I was wondering if he was using some ki-enhanced physical strength to also wield it in base or only his natural physical strength to do it.dbgtFO wrote:Skar wrote:Gohan transformed to SSJ to increase his strength in order to pull out the Z Sword so it might've been harder to pull it out than wield it normally since he did that in base.
Of course it would, that's only logical. You could have difficulty pulling out grass from the ground, but actually holding that grass in your hand is pretty easy
The same applies to the Z-sword, since no other explanation is given.
Yep. But what I'm getting at is that even though people use their ki to increase their "stats" far beyond normal, not everything is always increased equally. Based on your physiology, your training, or just your natural abilities, some of your "stats" may be better or worse than others. We've seen cases of that before, in particular the Ginyu Force. Butta's specialty was speed, and he was faster than not only Recoome and Jheese who were his rough equals in power, but also presumably Captain Ginyu who was far stronger than him. Goku was likewise faster than Captain Ginyu despite being weaker.Skar wrote:That's possible but when Toriyama said "There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”."
Piccolo: 320 millionSSJ2FutureGohan wrote:What gaps do you have on;
Piccolo & Imperfect Cell (post Humans) -
FP Perfect Cell & MSSJ Kid Gohan -
SSJ3 Goku & Fat Boo:
SSJ3 Goku & SSJ Gotenks (post) -
SSJ3 Goku & Ultimate Gohan -
SSJ Vegetto & Boohan -
Goku (Boo arc) & Goten (post-Room of Spirit and Time) -
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Piccolo - 1SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Piccolo & Imperfect Cell (post Humans)
SSj Gohan - 1SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:FP Perfect Cell & MSSJ Kid Gohan -
Dai Kaioshin Boo - 1SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SSJ3 Goku & Fat Boo:
SSj3 Goku - 1SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SSJ3 Goku & SSJ Gotenks (post) -
SSj3 Goku - 1SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SSJ3 Goku & Ultimate Gohan -
Gohan-Boo - 1SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SSJ Vegetto & Boohan -
base Goten - 1SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Goku (Boo arc) & Goten (post-Room of Spirit and Time) -
Rocketman wrote:Where you born unable to understand jokes or is this the result of years of hard training?
2x is kinda big, I prefer a 1.25x gap myselfRandomGuy96 wrote:SS3 Goku: 30 billion
Fat Buu: 14 billion
Where do you have SS Gotenks [pre]? and Post SS Gotenks should probably be > SS3 GokuRandomGuy96 wrote:SS3 Goku: 30 billion
SS Gotenks: 20 billion
It should at least be 2x Buu didn't land a single hit, Vegetto was using only his legs, and he told Buu to make him use his full power. Also, are you still running a 2.5x Fusion SS multiplier?RandomGuy96 wrote:SS Vegetto: 200 billion
Super Buu[han]: 139 billion
[This is more of a minimum; I'm not sure about the exact gap, but after re-reading their fight, I really don't think it can be that big]
Goten could be a little higher. I have the kids @ around 53-57% of the adults after the RoSaTRandomGuy96 wrote:Goku: 75 million
Goten: 33 million
Good point about Burter! The rest makes sense. I figured that their natural strength maxed out early on in the story and later on it was always ki-enhanced physical strength. I'm asking this question again because I feel I never got a straight answer to it. At the time of Dragonball it was just assumed Goku was a really strong kid then later we learn he was a Saiyan so physically stronger than humans. Even later we learn that he was raised on a planet with 10x Earth's gravity for the first three years of his life. That's why I have a hard time believing the Daizenshuu's 10 PL for him at the beginning of Dragonball. Living on a planet with higher gravity should've increased his ki as he got used to that gravity because every other instance in the manga where they trained in higher gravity increased their ki. Goku was only three years old when he landed on Earth and already stronger than an average human since Grandpa Gohan said he would've had some serious trouble if he wasn't a master martial artist. Just growing up should have increased his ki naturally as well not including his training with Grandpa Gohan.Kaboom wrote:Yep. But what I'm getting at is that even though people use their ki to increase their "stats" far beyond normal, not everything is always increased equally. Based on your physiology, your training, or just your natural abilities, some of your "stats" may be better or worse than others. We've seen cases of that before, in particular the Ginyu Force. Butta's specialty was speed, and he was faster than not only Recoome and Jheese who were his rough equals in power, but also presumably Captain Ginyu who was far stronger than him. Goku was likewise faster than Captain Ginyu despite being weaker.
In this case specifically, I'm inclined to believe that at equal power levels, Saiyans will always be at least a little physically stronger and tougher than other races, since they're a warrior race built for battle, and who are sturdy enough to thrive in high-gravity environments. One of the guidebooks even credits Goku's physiology, apart from his power level, as why he could withstand bullets and axes to the head as a kid.
The Kaioshin, however, have mystical powers and abilities like telekinesis that are amplified by their ki (see Kaioshin managing to restrain SS2 Gohan), but I'd like to think that they're not as potent in areas of physical combat. So assuming that base Gohan and Kibito both have a PL of 100, then Gohan's strength would be more like what someone else at 150 would have, while Kibito's might only be at 75 or something.
Something like that. We also have stuff like Buu adding the powers of those he absorbs to his own power. I'm not really giving these guys ratings with any certain destructive power or speed in mind. It's a relative strength scale based on past examples using an in-universe system. If someone were to ask me how strong, say, 100% Freeza was, in the context of DB, I'd say his power level was 120 million. However, if someone asked me how strong he was in a more general way, I'd say "large planet-busting level power and durability, with either five-digit mach or FTL speed judging by what feats you use". Which is pretty much the same place everyone stronger than Freeza but weaker than Cell would fall, really, unless you take Cell's solar system busting statement seriously. Or, "weaker than SS Goku, but strong enough to put up a fight". I like keeping a battle power list because it helps me keep track of where everyone else falls according to previous examples, as otherwise there's no real way to compare them.@RandomGuy
I still got no idea what these numbers mean. If Imperfect Cell has a 56% higher power level than Piccolo then does he have 56% more power or is it one of the earlier scales so he's really a few hundred or a few trillions times stronger? These numbers are just big random numbers without a scale. This is a question I have for all fans who guess power levels. If the scale used in the manga was consistently inconsistent then which scale do you use for guessing Post-Frieza saga power levels? I would assume it's the somewhat linear scale used in the Freeza saga since it was linear at least three times during that saga with Kaioken, SSJ, and Freeza's percentages.
1. Probably not a lot. If we assume Goku was only 5 when grandpa Gohan encountered him (a toddler being as strong as a grown man would still be "trouble" to a regular Joe), then there's plenty of room for him to gain some power training with his grandpa, and then have a small rate of growth just from growing up and doing nothing in the woods.Was Goku such a mediocre low-class that even with a special training he was only 10? The only answer I ever got was "power levels aren't proportionate so he's actually much higher than 2x a normal human". That's pretty obvious that the power level system is a inconsistent mess but still doesn't answer the two questions I've been asking. How much did Goku's power level increase just by growing up from the age of three to twelve? If Goku crash landed in the desert or something and never met Grandpa Gohan then how much lower would his power level be at the beginning of Dragonball?
He was kept in a pod, not really exposed to the planet's gravity. And even if he wasn't, he still wouldn't be actually training that environment.At the time of Dragonball it was just assumed Goku was a really strong kid then later we learn he was a Saiyan so physically stronger than humans. Even later we learn that he was raised on a planet with 10x Earth's gravity for the first three years of his life. That's why I have a hard time believing the Daizenshuu's 10 PL for him at the beginning of Dragonball. Living on a planet with higher gravity should've increased his ki as he got used to that gravity because every other instance in the manga where they trained in higher gravity increased their ki.
I feel that a large gap is warranted based on this:2x is kinda big, I prefer a 1.25x gap myself
Slightly lower.Where do you have SS Gotenks [pre]? and Post SS Gotenks should probably be > SS3 Goku
That's not that big of a deal. Freeza blocked Goku for many panels using just his legs when they were relatively even, and KK x3 Goku effortlessly smashed Vegeta similar to the way Vegetto smashed Buu, despite that only being a x1.33 gap in their powers.It should at least be 2x Buu didn't land a single hit, Vegetto was using only his legs, and he told Buu to make him use his full power. Also, are you still running a 2.5x Fusion SS multiplier?
I guess he could, but it meets my minimum requirement (they're over half as strong as Gohan and stronger than Piccolo), so I'm fine.Goten could be a little higher. I have the kids @ around 53-57% of the adults after the RoSaT
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
It's nice I'm finally getting some response to my questions. I was worried that there was some kind of word filter thing blocking some of my comments on this thread so that only I can see them when I login or something. Anyway for me it makes it more difficult to use the numbers for anything if there's no scale. That's like if someone said the distance was 4, 17, 99, and 435. Is that in cm, inches, feet, miles? Even then they told you what they were using to measure it you can know since cm and inches are clearly defined and you can convert between the various scales. It's difficult to make use of a system that the creator didn't care for consistently or might have even went out of his way to make it inconsistent to show how useless it was. I liked CatouttaHell's method because it completely ignores the power levels and their scales and only shows the proportionate difference between the characters. There are so many possible power levels for each character and so many possible scales that there's no way to even know how close they are. I'm not saying it's dumb just throwing out my opinion. This seems like a popular thread so more power to the power level fans. It's a lot more civil on this thread than I've seen other forums. It usually it ended in a bloodbath argument with one guy accusing the other for being an idiot because his numbers were "wrong" when he had no way to prove his own were even close.RandomGuy96 wrote:Something like that. We also have stuff like Buu adding the powers of those he absorbs to his own power. I'm not really giving these guys ratings with any certain destructive power or speed in mind. It's a relative strength scale based on past examples using an in-universe system. If someone were to ask me how strong, say, 100% Freeza was, in the context of DB, I'd say his power level was 120 million. However, if someone asked me how strong he was in a more general way, I'd say "large planet-busting level power and durability, with either five-digit mach or FTL speed judging by what feats you use". Which is pretty much the same place everyone stronger than Freeza but weaker than Cell would fall, really, unless you take Cell's solar system busting statement seriously. Or, "weaker than SS Goku, but strong enough to put up a fight". I like keeping a battle power list because it helps me keep track of where everyone else falls according to previous examples, as otherwise there's no real way to compare them.
That's what I don't get. If it remained linear Post-Frieza saga then how could SSJ still be only 50x base with Cell being a solar system buster? It can't be just an exponential scale for Cell and linear for everyone else that saga.Actually, I just realized something. Piccolo Daimao boasted that he used less than half of his power to shit-stomp Goku. Yet, that's obviously impossible using power levels. So, perhaps power levels are linear past a certain point, and all over the place before that, because they weren't meant to be used to measure levels that small? As I said earlier, it could just a "tier" thing. Everyone below planet-busting level is just too insignificant to bother with for Freeza's empire, so all of those levels are classified as, say, the difference between 1 and 400, despite in actuality the difference being much larger if you were to scale linearly.
I don't know did Grandpa Gohan go easy on his all those years? I know Zenkais were created way after but that would mean he barely got hurt while training with Grandpa Gohan so that he would never get even the smallest of Zenkais. I find it funny that fans accept Oozaru as being linear and only 10x more powerful but can't accept a PL of 10 is only 2x an average human. I guess transformations follow their own scale even in Dragonball1. Probably not a lot. If we assume Goku was only 5 when grandpa Gohan encountered him (a toddler being as strong as a grown man would still be "trouble" to a regular Joe), then there's plenty of room for him to gain some power training with his grandpa, and then have a small rate of growth just from growing up and doing nothing in the woods.
. Only 8? Were the other low-class Saiyans that weak at that age when they were sent off to conquer planets?2. Maybe 8 or something.
Oh good point. I don't know if he ever went outside as a baby but living in that gravity would have made him stronger as he got used to it though. It's similar to how Goku and Piccolo wore weighted clothes even when they weren't training or when Goku and Krillin wore the heavy turtle shells. I think the point of Goku running around chasing Bubbles on King Kai's planet was so that he could get used to the gravity before they began their actual training.He was kept in a pod, not really exposed to the planet's gravity. And even if he wasn't, he still wouldn't be actually training that environment.
That's not even that good of a tank, Semi-Perfect Cell's tank on 16 was a lot better than that, besides him and Goku were messing aroundRandomGuy96 wrote:I feel that a large gap is warranted based on this:2x is kinda big, I prefer a 1.25x gap myself
Spoiler:
Then what defines a "good" tank? The type of tanking we see with Semi-Cell, Broly, Super 13, etc.? The only difference between those tanks and Goku's is that Buu moved Goku and the punch traveled. Big whoop. In the end, Goku came out of it completely unharmed, as with the other three mentioned. If it broke skin and actually made him bleed however (Android 19 with Vgeta, Semi-Cell with Vegeta), it would be a different story. But this was a genuine tank IMO.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote: That's not even that good of a tank, Semi-Perfect Cell's tank on 16 was a lot better than that, besides him and Goku were messing around
You're forgetting that Fat Boo was toying around. and while Boo's punch didn't make Goku bleed, if Goku was really 2x + he probably wouldn't have even budged, and again, Boo was just playing around, 16 was going full force at Cell.Darkron2151 wrote: Then what defines a "good" tank? The type of tanking we see with Semi-Cell, Broly, Super 13, etc.? The only difference between those tanks and Goku's is that Buu moved Goku and the punch traveled. Big whoop. In the end, Goku came out of it completely unharmed, as with the other three mentioned. If it broke skin and actually made him bleed however (Android 19 with Vgeta, Semi-Cell with Vegeta), it would be a different story. But this was a genuine tank IMO.
Says who?SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:You're forgetting that Fat Boo was toying around. and while Boo's punch didn't make Goku bleed, if Goku was really 2x + he probably wouldn't have even budged, and again, Boo was just playing around, 16 was going full force at Cell.
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
A comment from Akira Toriyama about Goku being able to close the gap between his base and SS forms through training. And I felt even at the end of Z, he shouldn't be at Gotenks/Gohan/Super Boo's level yetSkar wrote: 1. What made you decide that the SSJ multiplier went down to 2.5x by the end of Z?
The gaps felt to tight to fit in Zenkai Vegeta, initial Freeza, and zenkai Goku. I just liked the gaps I made better. And, meh. What's the difference between an ass-pull 33x zenkai, and an ass-pull 50x zenkai?2. Why were the power levels for 100% Freeza and SSJ Goku almost double the numbers from the Daizenshuu? I have no problem with someone disagreeing with them but I was just curious why you did. I think their numbers work there. I thought it was pretty ridiculous that Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million in one Zenkai which is why I rather not think he might've been even higher than that.
Just bloat in the Cell arc. Also, I don't take Beerus' comment to heart (although I know the majority of this site does). Also Trunks and Goten end up just around C18 like the daiz says.3. Why were the base Saiyans that much stronger than Freeza by the Buu saga?
1. She's Ultimate Gohan's daughter4. Why is Pan 2 billion in base and stronger than base Goten and Trunks combined?
I don't recall ever seeing that comment. Could you show me where your read that?SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:A comment from Akira Toriyama about Goku being able to close the gap between his base and SS forms through training. And I felt even at the end of Z, he shouldn't be at Gotenks/Gohan/Super Boo's level yet
Well in my opinion a smaller asspull is better than a larger one. What makes the gaps too "tight"? Power levels were never consistent so I'm just curious what would be consider too tight.The gaps felt to tight to fit in Zenkai Vegeta, initial Freeza, and zenkai Goku. I just liked the gaps I made better. And, meh. What's the difference between an ass-pull 33x zenkai, and an ass-pull 50x zenkai?
Did the Daizenshuu really say base Goten and Trunks were almost as strong as #18? I don't recall every reading that but even so a canon movie with Toriyama being involved in the story and script should hold more water than a guidebook not written by him. There's no reason that line would've been included in the movie if it wasn't true. Beerus said he doesn't think Goku can't defeat Frieza in base and Goku doesn't argue. That would be the first time in all of Dragonball that a character was underestimated by someone and didn't prove that person wrong immediately afterwards. If that line wasn't meant to mean anything Beerus could have easily said something like "I heard you were the one who defeated Frieza. Have you gotten any stronger since then?" to avoid making comment about his base form.Just bloat in the Cell arc. Also, I don't take Beerus' comment to heart (although I know the majority of this site does). Also Trunks and Goten end up just around C18 like the daiz says.
1. I don't know if being Gohan's daughter is enough for her to be stronger than the Buu saga Base Saiyans by age 5. I assumed that because their fathers had already unlocked SSJ Goten and Trunks had easy access to that form. Goku was FPSSJ when Goten was conceived while Vegeta was only a novice SSJ but their kids were about the same strength. If a stronger parent = stronger offspring then Goten should've been way stronger than Trunks.1. She's Ultimate Gohan's daughter
2. The Generation Rule
3. Goku said she'd make it far in the tournament (but definitely won't win), so I take his word for it.
I can understand ignoring guidebook power levels but canon power levels that actually appeared in the manga? I don't know that just sounds like you're saying "the author was wrong about the numbers he came up with in his story". The gaps don't really need to work because the entire power level system was meant to be inconsistent and nonsensical. Even making the gap wider wouldn't help since power levels weren't proportionate and the scale kept changing.Pre-Z Battle Powers list [ignoring scouter numbers here to make the gaps work]
Ignoring scouter numbers
