How exactly does BoG conflict with the manga?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think it's not that simple. That throw in a Kiai is not the same thing like to turn Super Saiyan?

Gohan doesn't have to scream to go SS. Check the scene when he goes SS as the Golden Warrior in the 1st chapter of Boo arc.

[Low Tone G]

I think it's not that simple. That throw in a Kiai is not the same thing like to turn Super Saiyan?

Gohan doesn't have to scream to go SS. Check the scene when he goes SS as the Golden Warrior in the 1st chapter of Boo arc.

What does that Japanese Kiai word mean? It means to scream? Ah, Yeah. But Saiyans often scream when they transform into a Super Saiyan, isn't it?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Saiyans often scream when they transform into a Super Saiyan, isn't it?

In the anime, all the time.

[Low Tone G]

But Saiyans often scream when they transform into a Super Saiyan, isn't it?

In the anime, all the time.

Of course, but it doesn't appear suggested in drawings too? I think it does.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But Saiyans often scream when they transform into a Super Saiyan, isn't it?

In the anime, all the time.

Of course, but it doesn't appear suggested in drawings too? I think it does.

It only happens when:

Trunks transforms against Freeza.
Goku transforms against #19.
Vegeta turns SS Grade 2.
Gohan turns SS2 against Cell.
Gohan turns SS2 against Kibito.
Vegeta turns SS2 against Goku
Goku turns SS3 for the first time
Vegetto turns SS.
Goku transforms when using the Super Genki Dama.

[Saitou Hajime]

He didn't attempt to transform into a super saiyan. He was attempting to transform into 'mystic' form with the gist of super saiyan and a kiai thrown in. There's a difference. Gohan never said, "Alright, I'm gonna try to transform into super saiyan". If he had said that you would have a point. But he didn't say that because that's not what he was trying to achieve.

Maybe the state he transforms into depends on what his intentions are. If he intends to transform into ssj then he'll turn ssj. If he intends to transform into mystic, then he'll turn mystic.

Your quibbling at semantics. Elder Kai tells Gohan to transform into Ultimate by doing what he does when transforming into a SSJ, while throwing in a kiai (which Saiyans also do when transforming into a SSJ). To further illustrate how intent plays little into it, when Gohan goes berserk at Elder Kai when the ritual wasn't finished yet, he only does a partial SSJ transformation and looks more Ultimate with SSJ eyes.

[Saiga]

There's also Kaio's planet being back without an explanation. Sure, you can explain it away yourself, but it's the same thing for the ages - it's still an error because the story offers no explanation for it.

It's not explained in the Theatrical Cut, but in the Special Edition, it is stated by Whis that Kaio does have the power to restore the planet, and he chose to keep it small instead of restoring the whole thing:

Seeing how you kept it at this size, even though you had the planet restored the other day... I suppose you like it at this size.

So, there is no plot-hole there anymore.

Wow, really? There you go. They directly addressed the plot hole and closed it. I'd say it's still a plot hole in the original version of the film, like how manga sometimes fix plot holes from the weekly SJ release to Tankobons.

Ol' Mark spent most of the movie drunk off his gourd. Easy to use that to explain it.

So, it is an inconsistency then. Because you filled it in with your own explanation.

[Zephyr]

they went SS3 instantly the last time they fused as Gotenks

They didn't instantly, or otherwise, go SSj3 against Aka.

One could, for example, try to argue that movie 4 takes place between Freeza and the androids using similar logic.

"Just because Goku didn't use Super Saiyan doesn't mean he didn't have it! He just lost the ability to use it for about a year, then regained it for the rest of the time. Everyone was shocked he regained it so suddenly, but then he lost it again."

This isn't comparable though. If we had a later story where Gotenks went SSj3, this would be comparable. But we don't, so it's not.

The manga tells us right here how it works.

It gives us a light explanation the first time it is introduced.

Now, again, fan wank can be used to explain this.

GT disregarded it, Battle of Gods (which Toriyama helped write after re-reading the manga) disregarded it (until people complained on Twitter), and now this new film seems to be disregarding it. It doesn't sound like it was very permanent, as far as virtually every post-manga story is concerned. Whether you want to say "it's permanent, the writers are the ones who fucked up in all three instances" or "it wasn't permanent, as you can clearly see from everyone in charge of the story not treating it like it was", you're not basing the interpretation off of clear factual statements.

If they had wished for something, that would have been noted.

Do we have a demonstrated case of Shenlong being summoned again after a break and acknowledging said break? Otherwise "he has to make note of the break" isn't being contradicted, as it wasn't a rule in the first place. Just asking because I don't remember what he says the next time he's summoned after said break in the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Your quibbling at semantics. Elder Kai tells Gohan to transform into Ultimate by doing what he does when transforming into a SSJ, while throwing in a kiai (which Saiyans also do when transforming into a SSJ). To further illustrate how intent plays little into it, when Gohan goes berserk at Elder Kai when the ritual wasn't finished yet, he only does a partial SSJ transformation and looks more Ultimate with SSJ eyes.

The Ultimate state is obviously related to the Super Saiyan forms, since it uses the same dormant power the SS forms use, and it gives similar changes (the hairstyle changes, and the personality becomes more violent). It even got activated like a Super Saiyan form. When Gohan got angry in the middle of the ritual, what he showed could have been an imperfect Ultimate state, not necessarily a Super Saiyan form that was in the middle of getting replaced.

I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong (when going only by the manga). The whole thing is unclear in the manga, so going by that alone, Gohan either got his SS forms replaced by Ultimate, or he just added Ultimate to his arsenal along with his SS forms. However, BoG supports the second interpretation.

[Low Tone G]

Your quibbling at semantics. Elder Kai tells Gohan to transform into Ultimate by doing what he does when transforming into a SSJ, while throwing in a kiai (which Saiyans also do when transforming into a SSJ). To further illustrate how intent plays little into it, when Gohan goes berserk at Elder Kai when the ritual wasn't finished yet, he only does a partial SSJ transformation and looks more Ultimate with SSJ eyes.

The Ultimate state is obviously related to the Super Saiyan forms, since it uses the same dormant power the SS forms use, and it gives similar changes (the hairstyle changes, and the personality becomes more violent). It even got activated like a Super Saiyan form. When Gohan got angry in the middle of the ritual, what he showed could have been an imperfect Ultimate state, not necessarily a Super Saiyan form that was in the middle of getting replaced.

I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong (when going only by the manga). The whole thing is unclear in the manga, so going by that alone, Gohan either got his SS forms replaced by Ultimate, or he just added Ultimate to his arsenal along with his SS forms. However, BoG supports the second interpretation.

Yes, I've always viewed the Ultimate form like a perfected SSJ3 form without any energy loss, which can be accessed via magic. Being that Goku's God evolution was some kind of magic(miracle) AS WELL and kept its power as he can use it is base form, without any drawbacks like SSJ2(a little energy loss), SSJ3(huge energy loss and time limit) and SSJ-God(very short time limit) then I can say it may depend on personall will how to use that power. The best is the base to fight longer, but for Goku isn't proven that he can absorb attacks without SSJ-God form, so maybe that way the SSJ-God has an advantage even if it has a short time-limit.

I would like to think Whis will teach Goku(maybe Vegeta too) in the follwing movie how to unleash latent God powers(it was stated by Beerus that Goku has immeasurable latent power and Goku was able to transform once again into a God, I wish that was a result of latent power, if not, what else?), just like Old Kai did with Gohan.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

How long was BoG set after the defeat of ugly Kid Buu? Because I could totally see Gohan losing grip on the Ultimate/Mystic form, like how Vegeta says at the beginning of the Buu arc Gohan is weaker then he was against Cell, due to the lack of fighting.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How long was BoG set after the defeat of ugly Kid Buu?

BoG takes place 4 years after Boo's death.

[Saitou Hajime]

The Ultimate state is obviously related to the Super Saiyan forms, since it uses the same dormant power the SS forms use, and it gives similar changes (the hairstyle changes, and the personality becomes more violent). It even got activated like a Super Saiyan form. When Gohan got angry in the middle of the ritual, what he showed could have been an imperfect Ultimate state, not necessarily a Super Saiyan form that was in the middle of getting replaced.

It seemed more like the latter than the former. Gohan's eye color even changes like in SSJ.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It seemed more like the latter than the former. Gohan's eye color even changes like in SSJ.

Like I said, Gohan's Ultimate state has SS characteristics (it changes the appearance & personality, it draws power from the same source, it even gets activated like Super Saiyan), so an imperfect Ultimate Gohan having some more SS traits would make sense.

[kuartus4]

Piccolo has 5 finger in BoG, while in the manga he has 4.

[Mewzard]

Doesn't Mr. Satan mention he forgot and then explains it off as the booze in the extended cut of Battle of Gods? I seem to recall seeing that in my Blu Ray.

Bulma lying about her age actually fits her character. Given he went to sleep around the time Freeza blew up Vegeta and then woke up 39 years later, she'd have to be several years older than 39.

Jaco has Bulma about 5 years old at the time (maybe she's close to 6), so 39 years later, Bulma would be either 44 or 45, and this would be set around Age 777 or so, depending upon how accurate Beerus had his alarms going. 778 probably makes the most sense, given Pan's born in 779, unless Saiyans remain in their mothers for a long time.

41 would make Mai a rather mature 13 during the Pilaf Saga. Given Toriyama's ability to not depict aging or accurate age well for many characters, that wouldn't surprise me. But she could have also been lying about her age, but undercutting it less than Bulma did.

Of course, Jaco means Goku WAS 14 when he met Bulma, since he was 3 when she was 5. But Goku likely really didn't get his own age, so hey (Grandpa Gohan likely didn't know how old the alien child was either, he certainly didn't look 3).

Either way, age in shonen is weird (when you realize the 16 year old Aquilla Marin must have started training Pegasus Seiya when she was 9-10, yet she looked the same as she did at 16, you start having questions).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The original movies and video games aren't claiming to be canon to the manga, as evidenced by the impossible timelines. BOG and it's fans are claiming it is 100% canon to the manga so that minor little mistake is still a contradiction.

No one is claiming that anything is canon. There is no canon in DB.

[Kakacarrottop]

The original movies and video games aren't claiming to be canon to the manga, as evidenced by the impossible timelines. BOG and it's fans are claiming it is 100% canon to the manga so that minor little mistake is still a contradiction.

No one is claiming that anything is canon. There is no canon in DB.

There are 10,765 search results for the term "canon" on this site, i'm pretty sure quite a few people are. Saying there is no canon is like saying Goku doesn't exist. Of coarse he doesn't literally exist but he does in a meta sense, just like canon does.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There are 10,765 search results for the term "canon" on this site, i'm pretty sure quite a few people are. Saying there is no canon is like saying Goku doesn't exist. Of coarse he doesn't literally exist but he does in a meta sense, just like canon does.

The fans that claim that A is canon to B are wrong. Give me one official statement related to Dragon Ball that has the word "canon" in it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

-Ragegeta: Vegeta gets a rather large rage boost, despite that explicitly being Gohan's shtick, and Vegeta never, ever getting a rage boost in the manga despite the numerous occasions where it would have been extremely helpful. Again, fan wank can explain all this away, but the mere fact that fan wank has to be created to explain it cements it as a plot hole.

About that one, Watanabe (the scriptwriter) said in an interview that Vegeta surpassed Goku because he had something to protect in Bulma. Vegeta never got angry in order to protect someone, the only time he got angry for someone other than himself was when Trunks died, and that was for vengeance... Now, it was the power of love!