The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

The humans die. A Kikoho will be air to Goten, and a Kienzan would just break on his skin without doing anything.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So if Goten and Trunks weren't able to get away from #18's kienzan, it wouldn't have did any damage?

[RandomGuy96]

So if Goten and Trunks weren't able to get away from #18's kienzan, it wouldn't have did any damage?

I think it would've wounded but not killed the Super Saiyan kids. But, obviously, 18's Kienzan is quite a bit stronger than Krillin's, which wouldn't even slightly harm the base kids.

[Angelus]

Well... that was a quick one. No wonder Tien didn't even bother entering any more WMAT.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

We have no idea if the kienzan is considered more effective because of the strength of the user. Krillin was able to cut off Freeza's tail with one, and we know the difference was ridiculously huge. I see no reason why it'd do no damage to Goten. Also, Goten wouldn't just stand there and effortlessly take a Neo Kikoho when someone much more powerful than him couldn't.

[Angelus]

That's exactly why, in my versus stipulation: No Kienzan.

Goten could still evade and jump and run, etc, but the match stipulation was that no flying... since it's his first appearance, before he was taught how to fly.

[RandomGuy96]

We have no idea if the kienzan is considered more effective because of the strength of the user. Krillin was able to cut off Freeza's tail with one, and we know the difference was ridiculously huge. I see no reason why it'd do no damage to Goten. Also, Goten wouldn't just stand there and effortlessly take a Neo Kikoho when someone much more powerful than him couldn't.

Please tell me why it would be different than literally every other ki attack in the series. It's not magic. It's a just a regular ki wave shaped in a certain way.

It wasn't THAT huge, since 2nd form Freeza wasn't at full power, and Krillin was considered strong enough to be of help against 1st form Freeza based on power alone. I think it's around a x3-x4 gap in power. Plus, he caught Freeza off guard AND hit him in a weak spot.

How about you try proving why it WOULD damage Goten, someone ridiculously stronger than Krillin, thus making it completely different from every ki attack anyone ever used ever? We may as well start claiming that the Final Flash is a super-mega-awesome move that will always kill whatever it hits, regardless of who is firing it and who is being hit.

If you're talking about Semi-Cell, he did tank the Kikoho. Like I said, it was air to him. It didn't actually damage him in the least, it just pushed him around, because it's really, really easy to do that without actually hurting whoever you're pushing. Friggin' Nappa was able to tank it, and Tenshinhan considered it useless against Daimao and later Piccolo Jr. Also, exactly no one's response to Raditz was "we better grab Tenshinhan so he can use his magic x100 multiplier to one-shot him". The technique is really not that great. It's a desperation attack, because you'd have to be desperate to use something so shit.

[singsing]

The difference between base Goten before training and Semi-Perfect Cell is also massive. It would definitely do far more damage to Goten.

[RandomGuy96]

The difference between base Goten before training and Semi-Perfect Cell is also massive. It would definitely do far more damage to Goten.

If you assume that the Kikohos could actually damage Semi-Perfect Cell (which nothing really shows or states, btw), you're also assuming that Ten could secretly one-shot the androids and Imperfect Cell all along, but chose to lie about it and then just throw himself to possible death instead. Because, apparently, Tenshinhan is retarded enough to kill himself just so he can look weak. For some reason.

Yes, it would do far more damage to Goten... except, zero multiplied by twenty is still zero.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Please tell me why it would be different than literally every other ki attack in the series. It's not magic. It's a just a regular ki wave shaped in a certain way.

It's shown to be an attack that could easily take down an opponent much stronger than the user countless times.

It wasn't THAT huge, since 2nd form Freeza wasn't at full power, and Krillin was considered strong enough to be of help against 1st form Freeza based on power alone. I think it's around a x3-x4 gap in power. Plus, he caught Freeza off guard AND hit him in a weak spot.

Krillin was 75,000 and Freeza was over a million. It was that huge. It doesn't matter if he caught him off guard. If the power difference meant anything, it would've evaporated upon contact. When Krillin throws more kienzan's at Freeza, he makes it a point to dodge them all. Why? Because if he didn't, he'd be sliced into pieces.

How about you try proving why it WOULD damage Goten, someone ridiculously stronger than Krillin, thus making it completely different from every ki attack ever used?

Freeza's ridiculously stronger, too. Didn't matter, though. Can you show me an example where it didn't affect someone far more powerful than the user?

If you're talking about Semi-Cell, he did tank the Kikoho. Like I said, it was air to him. It didn't actually damage him in the least, it just pushed him around, because it's really, really easy to do that without actually hurting whoever you're pushing. Friggin' Nappa was able to tank it, and Tenshinhan considered it useless against Daimao and later Piccolo Jr. Also, exactly no one's response to Raditz was "we better grab Tenshinhan so he can use his magic x100 multiplier to one-shot him". The technique is really not that great. It's a desperation attack, because you'd have to be desperate to use something so shit.

Goten ain't no Semi-Cell. He couldn't get out of it and neither would Goten. Cell wanted to absorb #18, not sit there all day and pointlessly tank an attack. The fact of the matter is that he couldn't get out of it until Tien was done using it. Friggin Nappa tanked it and was still scared shitless, saying "that was close" right after. Not to mention Tien was pretty weakened with one arm when he used it. Tien wasn't at the Raditz battle, so that doesn't matter.

[RandomGuy96]

It's shown to be an attack that could easily take down an opponent much stronger than the user countless times.

That's actually only shown once. The other two times it is used, it is a sneak attack on a weak spot.

Krillin was 75,000 and Freeza was over a million. It was that huge.

Yes, and Vegeta drew Freeza and made him concerned at 250,000.

It doesn't matter if he caught him off guard. If the power difference meant anything, it would've evaporated upon contact.

Tell that to Freeza later in that same fight.

When Krillin throws more kienzan's at Freeza, he makes it a point to dodge them all. Why? Because if he didn't, he'd be sliced into pieces.

Or it would just a hurt a bit.

Freeza's ridiculously stronger, too. Didn't matter, though. Can you show me an example where it didn't affect someone far more powerful than the user?

He wasn't that much stronger.

No, because I don't have to. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it would work no matter what. A no limits fallacy is not proof.

Goten ain't no Semi-Cell. He couldn't get out of it and neither would Goten. Cell wanted to absorb #18, not sit there all day and pointlessly tank an attack. The fact of the matter is that he couldn't get out of it until Tenshinhan was done using it.

Like I said, it would be air to Goten. It'd push him around for a bit, but he wouldn't actually be damaged at all. Similar to base Trunks vs Imperfect Cell. At worst, he'd just be a bit disoriented from being pushed around. At best, he'll think it's fun.

Friggin Nappa tanked it and was still scared shitless, saying "that was close" right after.

Scared? He took a direct hit from it off guard and was smiling after.

Not to mention Tenshinhan was pretty weakened with one arm when he used it. Tenshinhan wasn't at the Raditz battle, so that doesn't matter.

Yet the fact remains that no one's first instinct was "let's go find Tenshinhan", even though they should easily be able to find him (when Bulma uses the scouter later, Mr. Fifth Strongest Man On Earth isn't actually suppressing his power at all). Goku's first instinct was actually "I'm going to confront him alone and hope I can grab his weak spot before he one-shots me again", which is basically suicidal. Tenshinhan also considered it useless against Daimao and Piccolo Jr. It's not that great of a technique, otherwise Tenshinhan wouldn't have cowered in fear of an exhausted, half-dead Piccolo Jr, and Piccolo Jr wouldn't just completely lol at the idea that Tenshinhan can do shit to him. Tenshinhan also wouldn't flee in sheer terror of an old, decrepit, not-at-full-power version of Daimao, preferring to use a suicide technique just for the chance of beating him. Also, Piccolo wouldn't explicitly say that Tenshinhan can't do shit to Gero, and Tenshinhan wouldn't explicitly say that he can't do shit to Imperfect Cell.

[Angelus]

Yet the fact remains that no one's first instinct was "let's go find Tenshinhan", even though they should easily be able to find him (when Bulma uses the scouter later, Mr. Fifth Strongest Man On Earth isn't actually suppressing his power at all). Goku's first instinct was actually "I'm going to confront him alone and hope I can grab his weak spot before he one-shots me again", which is basically suicidal. Tenshinhan also considered it useless against Daimao and Piccolo Jr. It's not that great of a technique, otherwise Tenshinhan wouldn't have cowered in fear of an exhausted, half-dead Piccolo Jr, and Piccolo Jr wouldn't just completely lol at the idea that Tenshinhan can do shit to him. Tenshinhan also wouldn't flee in sheer terror of an old, decrepit, not-at-full-power version of Daimao, preferring to use a suicide technique just for the chance of beating him.

Well, that's because Piccolo and Goku immediately went straight for Raditz instead of calling for back up, even though Goku had the whole day before Raditz would have done anything. Goku is impulsive that way. Even back in the DB days, even after getting beat up by old King Piccolo, and then healed by Korin's senzu beans, Goku immediately wanted to go back and fight old King Piccolo again after knowing that Roshi got killed.

Tien was probably just scared. I can easily kill a rat, but I still get scared.

That was actually a youth restored King Piccolo that Tien was terrified of. Old King Piccolo was someone he willingly would fight alongside Roshi, had Roshi not knocked him out with that gas.

Though I do agree that Tien's tribeams against the calibers of the Androids or Cell or Buu would be useless.

[RandomGuy96]

Yet the fact remains that no one's first instinct was "let's go find Tenshinhan", even though they should easily be able to find him (when Bulma uses the scouter later, Mr. Fifth Strongest Man On Earth isn't actually suppressing his power at all). Goku's first instinct was actually "I'm going to confront him alone and hope I can grab his weak spot before he one-shots me again", which is basically suicidal. Tenshinhan also considered it useless against Daimao and Piccolo Jr. It's not that great of a technique, otherwise Tenshinhan wouldn't have cowered in fear of an exhausted, half-dead Piccolo Jr, and Piccolo Jr wouldn't just completely lol at the idea that Tenshinhan can do shit to him. Tenshinhan also wouldn't flee in sheer terror of an old, decrepit, not-at-full-power version of Daimao, preferring to use a suicide technique just for the chance of beating him.

Well, that's because Piccolo and Goku immediately went straight for Raditz instead of calling for back up, even though Goku had the whole day before Raditz would have done anything. Goku is impulsive that way. Even back in the DB days, even after getting beat up by old King Piccolo, and then healed by Karin's senzu beans, Goku immediately wanted to go back and fight old King Piccolo again after knowing that Roshi got killed.

Tenshinhan was probably just scared. I can easily kill a rat, but I still get scared.

That was actually a youth restored King Piccolo that Tenshinhan was terrified of. Old King Piccolo was someone he willingly would fight alongside Roshi, had Roshi not knocked him out with that gas.

Though I do agree that Tenshinhan's tribeams against the calibers of the Androids or Cell or Buu would be useless.

Which, again, doesn't change the fact that Goku's first instinct upon being one-shotted was NOT to call Tenshinhan to get him to use his magic-one-hit-kill wonder move. Adult Goku presumably at least has the common sense to know an easy way out when he sees it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's actually only shown once. The other two times it is used, it is a sneak attack on a weak spot.

Freeza would've been cut if he didn't dodge the additional ones.

Yes, and Vegeta drew Freeza and made him concerned at 250,000.

Freeza was concerned about winded Vegeta where, exactly?

Tell that to Freeza later in that same fight.

Um....

Or it would just a hurt a bit.

Or it would've cut him into pieces, which is actually implied.

He wasn't that much stronger.

Sounds like your opinion, man.

No, because I don't have to. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it would work no matter what. A no limits fallacy is not proof.

Not when I have examples of the kienzan affecting a more powerful opponent. You have a total of 0 examples where the more powerful guy laughs it off with no damage.

Like I said, it would be air to Goten. It'd push him around for a bit, but he wouldn't actually be damaged at all. Similar to base Trunks vs Imperfect Cell. At worst, he'd just be a bit disoriented from being pushed around. At best, he'll think it's fun.

Base Trunks used a normal kiai, so the situation doesn't even compare. At worst, he'd be absolute toast from the attack.

Scared? He took a direct hit from it off guard and was smiling after.

Doesn't matter. The attack wasn't even launched at its best and it was stated to have given him a scare:

Nappa: “Phew…You really gave me a scare…!”

So yeah. Stated.

Yet the fact remains that no one's first instinct was "let's go find Tenshinhan", even though they should easily be able to find him (when Bulma uses the scouter later, Mr. Fifth Strongest Man On Earth isn't actually suppressing his power at all). Goku's first instinct was actually "I'm going to confront him alone and hope I can grab his weak spot before he one-shots me again", which is basically suicidal. Tenshinhan also considered it useless against Daimao and Piccolo Jr. It's not that great of a technique, otherwise Tenshinhan wouldn't have cowered in fear of an exhausted, half-dead Piccolo Jr, and Piccolo Jr wouldn't just completely lol at the idea that Tenshinhan can do shit to him. Tenshinhan also wouldn't flee in sheer terror of an old, decrepit, not-at-full-power version of Daimao, preferring to use a suicide technique just for the chance of beating him. Also, Piccolo wouldn't explicitly say that Tenshinhan can't do shit to Gero, and Tenshinhan wouldn't explicitly say that he can't do shit to Imperfect Cell.

The Kikoho isn't exactly a technique he looks forward to using. As for that other stuff, they didn't have time for all that. Stop making it seem like the Kikoho is being factored into Tien's raw power. When Piccolo says Tien, Gohan and Krillin can't do shit to Gero, he's clearly talking in terms of power. Tien also has yet to even show the Neo Kikoho, so none of that matters in the least.

[singsing]

Which, again, doesn't change the fact that Goku's first instinct upon being one-shotted was NOT to call Tenshinhan to get him to use his magic-one-hit-kill wonder move. Adult Goku presumably at least has the common sense to know an easy way out when he sees it.

"I could fuse and 1 shot Pure Buu... but NAHHHH"

[Angelus]

Which, again, doesn't change the fact that Goku's first instinct upon being one-shotted was NOT to call Tenshinhan to get him to use his magic-one-hit-kill wonder move. Adult Goku presumably at least has the common sense to know an easy way out when he sees it.

But that's that same Goku that didn't ask for help from Krillin and Roshi, who were readily available, and whose power levels weren't so outrageously much lower compared to Goku's at the time. His son got kidnapped and his first instinct was to go after the kidnapper... luckily Piccolo was there. He just didn't do the most logical thing at the time... which would have been to sense out Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu.. and maybe go ask Korin and Yajirobe.. and Popo... and Baba's 4 warriors for help. He had the whole day to do that. Raditz even gave him that much lee way, an entire day. Goku just probably thought... "the longer I wait, the more possible abuse my child will endure from Raditz."

Besides, even I would agree that it wouldn't be a one-shot. But do you think, if Tien actually barraged Raditz with tribeams, the same way he did to Cell, that Raditz wouldn't come out being injured somehow, or significantly weakened by the tribeams? At Tien's power level at that time, maybe he could pull off a couple of tribeams, before dying from loss of energy.

"I could fuse and 1 shot Pure Buu... but NAHHHH"

Tien was unconscious at the time, Goku even said so. Dende should have healed Tien but he just didn't. There's no way it would be just a one-shot though, even from Tienku.

[singsing]

Which, again, doesn't change the fact that Goku's first instinct upon being one-shotted was NOT to call Tenshinhan to get him to use his magic-one-hit-kill wonder move. Adult Goku presumably at least has the common sense to know an easy way out when he sees it.

But that's that same Goku that didn't ask for help from Krillin and Roshi, who were readily available, and whose power levels weren't so outrageously much lower compared to Goku's at the time. His son got kidnapped and his first instinct was to go after the kidnapper... luckily Piccolo was there. He just didn't do the most logical thing at the time... which would have been to sense out Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chiaotzu.. and maybe go ask Karin and Yajirobe.. and Popo... and Baba's 4 warriors for help. He had the whole day to do that. Raditz even gave him that much lee way, an entire day. Goku just probably thought... "the longer I wait, the more possible abuse my child will endure from Raditz."

Besides, even I would agree that it wouldn't be a one-shot. But do you think, if Tenshinhan actually barraged Raditz with tribeams, the same way he did to Cell, that Raditz wouldn't come out being injured somehow, or significantly weakened by the tribeams? At Tenshinhan's power level at that time, maybe he could pull off a couple of tribeams, before dying from loss of energy.

"I could fuse and 1 shot Pure Buu... but NAHHHH"

Tenshinhan was unconscious at the time, Goku even said so. Dende should have healed Tenshinhan but he just didn't. There's no way it would be just a one-shot though, even from Tienku.

I meant Goku and Vegeta could have fused.

[Angelus]

Which, again, doesn't change the fact that Goku's first instinct upon being one-shotted was NOT to call Tenshinhan to get him to use his magic-one-hit-kill wonder move. Adult Goku presumably at least has the common sense to know an easy way out when he sees it.

"I could fuse and 1 shot Pure Buu... but NAHHHH"

Umm so what were you referring to when you made that comment? I probably didn't get the idea or what you meant. XD

[RandomGuy96]

Freeza would've been cut if he didn't dodge the additional ones.

Proof?

Freeza was concerned about winded Vegeta where, exactly?

He got pissed, powered up, and charged Vegeta, was surprised and frustrated when Vegeta was able to resist him, and admitted that Vegeta wasn't bluffing (about Vegeta and co being able to beat him).

Um....

Yes...?

Or it would've cut him into pieces, which is actually implied.

Or, it wouldn't have, because the Kienzan is never shown to be magically effective no matter what the power difference is. Its highest confirmed feat is cutting Nappa's cheek, and its highest statement is that it was apparently able to kill someone a little over twice as strong as Krillin. Just because someone dodges an attack doesn't mean it's actually a threat to them (Freeza himself dodges all of Piccolo's blows even when he's in his final form, but no one uses that to argue that Piccolo's punch > Freeza). Heck, even if it COULD cut right through Freeza, that still wouldn't be proof that Krillin could cut Goten with it, since the gap between Krillin and Freeza is nowhere near the size of the gap between Krillin and base Goten.

Sounds like your opinion, man.

Well, my "opinion" is that the Kienzan doesn't magically one-shot everything regardless of any power difference. What's yours?

Not when I have examples of the kienzan affecting a more powerful opponent. You have a total of 0 examples where the more powerful guy laughs it off with no damage.

You're the one who's claiming it would work on Goten. Burden of proof, man. Find an example of Krillin's Kienzan working on someone that strong, or admit you have no proof. Again, a no limits fallacy isn't proof. It's just like claiming that the Final Flash will kill anyone regardless of power solely because we've never seen it get tanked, and saw it once nearly kill someone way stronger than Vegeta. Or claiming that the SBC can kill everything, because it went right through Raditz despite Raditz being nearly four times stronger than Piccolo, and even stronger than the attack itself (actually far more impressive than anything Krillin's Kienzan has done in terms of relative strengths, by the way).

Base Trunks used a normal kiai, so the situation doesn't even compare. At worst, he'd be absolute toast from the attack.

Uh, yeah, it does. The kiai aspect of Ten's attack was what was having an effect. Not the actual damage. Cell took ten of them off-guard while flying and was totally fine. I was simply showing that being able to push someone with a kiai doesn't actually mean the power of the kiai has to be anywhere near the power of the person being pushed. Which should be obvious by the fact that Ten didn't use his Kikoho against the androids or Imperfect Cell, and in fact was specifically stated multiple times as being unable to do shit against those guys. Oh, and it'd also explain why he didn't use it on Daimao, Piccolo Jr, Freeza, and Cold.

Doesn't matter. The attack wasn't even launched at its best and it was stated to have given him a scare:

Yes, it gave him a scare, until it actually hit him. Then it did absolutely nothing to him, and he smiled. Basically: "wow, I actually thought you were worth shit for a moment, hahaha".

The Kikoho isn't exactly a technique he looks forward to using. As for that other stuff, they didn't have time for all that. Stop making it seem like the Kikoho is being factored into Tenshinhan's raw power. When Piccolo says Tenshinhan, Gohan and Krillin can't do shit to Gero, he's clearly talking in terms of power. Tenshinhan also has yet to even show the Neo Kikoho, so none of that matters in the least.

We plainly see him use it several times with no real drawbacks, as long as he doesn't overuse it.

What does "they don't have time" even mean in this context? Tenshinhan didn't have time to fire off a Kikoho at Daimao while he was making a wish? Ten didn't have time to Kikoho Piccolo Jr as he was charging up a blast to destroy the island? Tenshinhan didn't have time to Kikoho the androids while they were fighting the others?

Except Piccolo literally says that they can't take Gero. Which, if Ten secretly could one-shot him without even using his highest possible power (the power that can APPARENTLY hurt Semi-Cell), would be completely laughable, and something Ten would take issue to. And, you know, Ten himself said he couldn't do jack to Imperfect Cell.

"I could fuse and 1 shot Pure Buu... but NAHHHH"

That scene is actually a terrible example to use if you want to argue against Goku, since after he fights Pure Buu, he's the one who recommends just bringing in Gohan to one-shot the idiot, while Vegeta talks him out of it. Also, Buu arc Goku =/= Saiyan arc Goku, who will use whatever dirty trick he needs to win. Heck, even Buu arc Goku recognized when he was completely outclassed (e.g. begging Vegeta to fuse instead of wanting to face Super Buu alone).

[singsing]

Which, again, doesn't change the fact that Goku's first instinct upon being one-shotted was NOT to call Tenshinhan to get him to use his magic-one-hit-kill wonder move. Adult Goku presumably at least has the common sense to know an easy way out when he sees it.

"I could fuse and 1 shot Pure Buu... but NAHHHH"

Umm so what were you referring to when you made that comment? I probably didn't get the idea or what you meant. XD

RG saying Goku has the common sense to know the easy way out when he sees it.