Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:32 am

But yeah, Kaio-ken Piccolo would be absurdly powerful. Considering that he's already not that far off from Cell Games Vegeta and Trunks at that point in the series, he'd easily be able to pass the Saiyans and even Cell himself if he just powered up using a few levels of Kaio-ken, let alone x10 or x20! Considering that SSj3 isn't even a 10x boost over regular Super Saiyan, and Piccolo isn't that far beyond the regular Super Saiyans... Piccolo could easily surpass SSj3 Goku if he could use high-level Kaio-ken ontop of his Buu saga power.
Piccolo pisses himself and cowers in fear of powers (SS Goten, SS Trunks, Kaioshin) much weaker than SS Goku. At the Cell Games, he got the shit kicked out of him by someone about half as strong as the weakest adult Buu arc Super Saiyan (Gohan), and nothing implied he powered up a lot since then. Kaio-ken Piccolo would still be basically useless compared to Mr. Buu, SS3 Goku, SS3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan.
And Buu if he could learn it, or Uub after reaching his potential, would be insane. Fat Buu Kaio-ken x20 vs. Kid Buu would be a really odd (...and anti-climactic, considering just how much stronger Fatty would be with that kind of boost!) alternate ending to the Buu saga.
Perhaps Buu's gum-like body just makes him ill-suited to the Kaio-ken. Otherwise, there's really no reason that he couldn't just copy the Kaio-ken from Goku upon seeing it used a couple of times and roflstomp everyone.
I'm guessing Kaio-ken isn't quite compatible with godly ki, though--would help explain why the North Kaio could never use the technique he developed, since all of the gods should have at least some god ki even if their ki isn't 100% god ki like Beerus and Whis
It's never said that Kaio can't use it (indeed, he'd have to use it just to confirm that it... you know, exists). It's just said that he couldn't MASTER it.
It probably took too much of a toll on the body. Just look at Goku using it against Vegeta and Freeza. Sure he was getting a bit of an upper hand on them but at the end he was worn and torn tired. Those were the times Goku got pretty beat up. I can imagine him sharing that to the others. Maybe Tenshinhan and Yamcha didn't wanna use it cause of their "pride". Doubt that but maybe.
Goku was still more or less fine after using the highest Kaio-ken levels against Vegeta and Freeza. Yeah, he was out of power, but he wasn't dead or anything. If, say, Mr. Buu could use it, it wouldn't actually matter if he was tired afterwards. Because a simple Kaio-ken x2 would let him one-shot Pure Buu. Same goes for Kamiccolo and the androids. Heck, if they could teach Kibitoshin Kaio-ken, he'd probably stomp all over Pure Buu.
I don't see a reason how it can be so taxing on the body when at certain levels it Kaio-Ken noticeable. At 90,000 x2 and x3 pretty much feel like nothing to Goku. They don't strain nearly as bad as before. At 3,000,000 x10 is what Goku can do without straining himself. Now someone with a massively higher power level such as Piccolo later on should not have a problem using the technique since he's way stronger than Namek Goku. Cell is much much stronger and should logically know of the technique since the spy bot was around. Yet never uses it. He could have demolished Gohan as an SSJ2 if he used a x10 which didn't feel like much to a 3,000,000 power level Goku. Oob would be monstrous with Kaio-Ken with his high power. I only have the god ki stuff as a maybe though as perhaps it doesn't work with godly ki, though really it probably should work.

I can't see how someone much stronger than Namek Goku can't wield Kaio-Ken. Even teaching wise I don't see how none of them could learn that technique. If we go by DBO and Xenoverse, all races can use Kaio-Ken.
As I said, I don't think this explanation really fits. But if one REALLY wants to go the "they need a strong body, not just a high amount of ki" route, they can assume that Goku's comment about being able to use higher level Kaio-ken because he got stronger was referring to his body physically toughening up due to the x100 gravity he endured. That'd basically mean that the five zenkais were for raising his base power level, while the gravity training was allow for the usage of Kaio-ken x10. This is supported a bit by the fact that Goku still can only use Kaio-ken x10 comfortably both before and after his last zenkai, despite the enormous difference between his pre and post zenkai selves in battle power/ki.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P11.1-4
Context: Goku has turned the gravity back down to 1g.
Goku: “Hwoo!!! I…I feel so light… …It’s like I’m not even here!!! Hoo hoo hoo!!! I’m light, I’m light! And strong, strong! Like this, I can definitely withstand about a 10-fold Kaio-Ken!”
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10799
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:43 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:At the Cell Games, he got the shit kicked out of him by someone about half as strong as the weakest adult Buu arc Super Saiyan (Gohan)
Which means Kaioken x2 would get him to SS1 Gohan.
So KKx4 would put him on the SS2 level.
So KKx20 would make him stronger than SS3 Goku.

User avatar
dbzfan7
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13045
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:10 pm

I don't see how I'm supposed to buy Namek Goku's body or by extension Saiyan Saga Goku's body is tougher than everyone way stronger than him, and that's why no one can use Kaio-Ken.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:14 pm

Rocketman wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:At the Cell Games, he got the shit kicked out of him by someone about half as strong as the weakest adult Buu arc Super Saiyan (Gohan)
Which means Kaioken x2 would get him to SS1 Gohan.
So KKx4 would put him on the SS2 level.
So KKx20 would make him stronger than SS3 Goku.
That's assuming his power-up between Cell and Buu was significant. It's also assuming that the difference between Gohan and Goku is basically non-existent. Neither of those things appear to be true. I think that Buu arc Kaio-ken x20 Piccolo would still get smashed by SS3 Goku even if Kaio-ken x20 DIDN'T leave him useless after five seconds (which it will).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

singsing
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:40 pm

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by singsing » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:41 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:At the Cell Games, he got the shit kicked out of him by someone about half as strong as the weakest adult Buu arc Super Saiyan (Gohan)
Which means Kaioken x2 would get him to SS1 Gohan.
So KKx4 would put him on the SS2 level.
So KKx20 would make him stronger than SS3 Goku.
That's assuming his power-up between Cell and Buu was significant. It's also assuming that the difference between Gohan and Goku is basically non-existent. Neither of those things appear to be true. I think that Buu arc Kaio-ken x20 Piccolo would still get smashed by SS3 Goku even if Kaio-ken x20 DIDN'T leave him useless after five seconds (which it will).
But why? Goku with a PL of 3 million and a much weaker body would get rekt by using KKx20, but why would a much more durable and powerful Buu Piccolo also get destroyed using KKx20? That's assuming KKx20 is the absolute maximum and the strain is constant.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:49 pm

But why? Goku with a PL of 3 million and a much weaker body would get rekt by using KKx20, but why would a much more durable and powerful Buu Piccolo also get destroyed using KKx20? That's assuming KKx20 is the absolute maximum and the strain is constant.
Because there doesn't seem to be any real correlation between power level and Kaio-len limits after a certain point. Otherwise, Goku would have just used the Kaio-ken x330 to one-shot Freeza.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Saiga
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8311
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm
Location: Space Australia

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Saiga » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:44 pm

Rocketman wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:At the Cell Games, he got the shit kicked out of him by someone about half as strong as the weakest adult Buu arc Super Saiyan (Gohan)
Which means Kaioken x2 would get him to SS1 Gohan.
So KKx4 would put him on the SS2 level.
So KKx20 would make him stronger than SS3 Goku.
No, Kaio-ken x2 would still make him inferior to Gohan, as someone half as strong as that was kicking the shit out of him.

I think with the Kaio-ken x 20 he'd basically be right inbetween the SS2s and SS3s.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

User avatar
Eternal Super Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:18 am
Location: Oregon, United States

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:51 pm

Cell in first form stated he has the Kaioken technique. But he never used it for whatever reason. With a 2x or 3x Kaioken Cell could have easily overpowered SSJ2 Gohan. Why didn't he?
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:57 pm

He only said he could use the Genki Dama.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

User avatar
Eternal Super Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:18 am
Location: Oregon, United States

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:10 pm

So Dragon Ball Kai also adds dialogue that was never in the Manga. It's giving me a headache!
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku

User avatar
mAcChaos
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by mAcChaos » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:00 am

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Cell in first form stated he has the Kaioken technique. But he never used it for whatever reason. With a 2x or 3x Kaioken Cell could have easily overpowered SSJ2 Gohan. Why didn't he?
He was already using SSJ, basically. I don't get why people think using KK instead would be better. They're both multipliers from base.
[i]"I have yet to show you, young warrior, what I'm truly capable of."[/i] - Cell

User avatar
Eternal Super Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:18 am
Location: Oregon, United States

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:18 am

mAcChaos wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Cell in first form stated he has the Kaioken technique. But he never used it for whatever reason. With a 2x or 3x Kaioken Cell could have easily overpowered SSJ2 Gohan. Why didn't he?
He was already using SSJ, basically. I don't get why people think using KK instead would be better. They're both multipliers from base.
Yeah but its not like Cell would suddenly get weaker by using Kaioken. It multiplies the power Cell already has. Kaioken on top of SSJ. It may be dangerous but the outcome I'm sure is what's most important :P
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku

User avatar
dbzfan7
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13045
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:25 am

mAcChaos wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Cell in first form stated he has the Kaioken technique. But he never used it for whatever reason. With a 2x or 3x Kaioken Cell could have easily overpowered SSJ2 Gohan. Why didn't he?
He was already using SSJ, basically. I don't get why people think using KK instead would be better. They're both multipliers from base.
How is Cell already using SSJ? He isn't a saiyan and doesn't have a 50x boost equivalent.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

Fishman
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:17 pm

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Fishman » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:30 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Cell in first form stated he has the Kaioken technique. But he never used it for whatever reason. With a 2x or 3x Kaioken Cell could have easily overpowered SSJ2 Gohan. Why didn't he?
He was already using SSJ, basically. I don't get why people think using KK instead would be better. They're both multipliers from base.
How is Cell already using SSJ? He isn't a saiyan and doesn't have a 50x boost equivalent.
I recall Cell being pretty consistently drawn with Super Saiyan auras in both manga and animation.

Considering "Super Perfect Cell" is effectively him reaching Super Saiyan 2, I don't see how saying Cell has and actively uses Super Saiyan 1 is such a stretch? Like just because he doesn't have gold hair doesn't mean it's literally impossible for it to be happening.
Super Saiyan Blue is not a creative color.
DBZ Movie 3 told a stronger and more believable "Evil Goku" story in 60 minutes than Dragon Ball Super has in 20 episodes. And it did it with better visuals and score.

User avatar
dbzfan7
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13045
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:38 pm

Fishman wrote:I recall Cell being pretty consistently drawn with Super Saiyan auras in both manga and animation.

Considering "Super Perfect Cell" is effectively him reaching Super Saiyan 2, I don't see how saying Cell has and actively uses Super Saiyan 1 is such a stretch? Like just because he doesn't have gold hair doesn't mean it's literally impossible for it to be happening.
I personally don't see him as an SSJ of any sort. He's just Cell. He doesn't have no 50x and 100x increase. His aura being similar doesn't really strike me as him being a literal SSJ.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

User avatar
Eternal Super Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:18 am
Location: Oregon, United States

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:04 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
Fishman wrote:I recall Cell being pretty consistently drawn with Super Saiyan auras in both manga and animation.

Considering "Super Perfect Cell" is effectively him reaching Super Saiyan 2, I don't see how saying Cell has and actively uses Super Saiyan 1 is such a stretch? Like just because he doesn't have gold hair doesn't mean it's literally impossible for it to be happening.
I personally don't see him as an SSJ of any sort. He's just Cell. He doesn't have no 50x and 100x increase. His aura being similar doesn't really strike me as him being a literal SSJ.
Yeah I never thought Cell was a "super saiyan" either. So Kaioken is not going to replace anything, it will make him stronger if he ever used it.

That's like saying Chi-Chi used Kaioken just because she had red aura in the Garlic Jr. Saga! :D
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10799
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:46 pm

Saiga wrote:No, Kaio-ken x2 would still make him inferior to Gohan, as someone half as strong as that was kicking the shit out of him.
The Cell Jrs seem a lot stronger than half SS1 Gohan.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:58 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Saiga wrote:No, Kaio-ken x2 would still make him inferior to Gohan, as someone half as strong as that was kicking the shit out of him.
The Cell Jrs seem a lot stronger than half SS1 Gohan.
SS Vegeta was equal with the Cell Jrs and he was in between 50% and 100% of SS Goku. SS Gohan was much, much stronger than SS Goku. As in, someone who could beat the shit out of Goku couldn't even lay a finger on him.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10799
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Rocketman » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:24 am

If the Jrs were that much weaker than him, then why would he need SS2 to save everyone from them?

User avatar
Saiga
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8311
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm
Location: Space Australia

Re: Why didn't anyone else adopt Kaio-Ken?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:31 am

Rocketman wrote:If the Jrs were that much weaker than him, then why would he need SS2 to save everyone from them?
He didn't even try. Cell would just stop him, like he did when Gohan attacked Cell for talking about going after everyone else.

Also, I'm not sure if he would take 7 on at once if they were all around half his strength (I'd say they're a biiiiit higher than that).
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

Post Reply