Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Another reason Freeza > Base Goku doesn't work in BoG is that Goku is implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who was stronger than SSJ 3 Gotenks who was (going by official multipliers) 8x stronger than SSJ 3 Goku. So that would at the very least, mean Goku in BoG is 10x stronger his Boo arc self (at least). So if Goku is still weaker than Freeza even in BoG, that would mean base Goku in the Boo arc would be ~10,000,000, which is ridiculous.

Where is this even implied?
promises, but we'll see.

I'll get back to those other points, but first

1. Everyone was excited Goku arrived back when Beerus was gonna destroy the earth, but they already saw Ultimate Gohan get two-shotted by Beerus
2. Master Roshi using Goku as a measuring stick instead of Gohan when Vegeta attacks Beerus
3.If Gohan was the strongest non fused, then the gods would have made some sort of impression with him. But they don't care about him or Gotenks. Beerus was impressed with SSJ3 Goku after powering up.
4. At the end of the film Beerus says that both Vegeta and Goku could be threats. Nothing is said about Gohan or Gotenks.
5. Vegeta is shocked that Goku was defeated by Beerus. No reason to be if Gohan and Gotenks were still stronger enough that they could stomp Goku.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Also, on topic to Freeza > or < Base Saiyans

2) Kaioshin > Freeza is an undisputed fact. Kaioshin is wetting himself at the sight of Pui-Pui and Yakon. Goku and Vegeta in their Base states beat Yakon/Pui-Pui respectively. So Freeza > Base Goku / Vegeta > Kaioshin >>>> Freeza ??

[Darkron2151]

I'll get back to those other points, but first

1. Everyone was excited Goku arrived back when Beerus was gonna destroy the earth, but they already saw Ultimate Gohan get two-shotted by Beerus
2. Master Roshi using Goku as a measuring stick instead of Gohan when Vegeta attacks Beerus
3.If Gohan was the strongest non fused, then the gods would have made some sort of impression with him. But they don't care about him or Gotenks. Beerus was impressed with SSJ3 Goku after powering up.
4. At the end of the film Beerus says that both Vegeta and Goku could be threats. Nothing is said about Gohan or Gotenks.
5. Vegeta is shocked that Goku was defeated by Beerus. No reason to be if Gohan and Gotenks were still stronger enough that they could stomp Goku.

1. So? Vegeta knew already that Goku lost in two hits, and he himself actually took a bunch of punches yet managed to rage, in which it was noted that even he was stronger than Goku when enraged.

2. So? They use Freeza as a measuring stick in the Android Saga and up. Does that mean Freeza> Everyone else that wasn't mentioned in the comparison? Plus that could just mean that Gohan was still stronger than Vegeta.

3. Goku was the first one that he met, so of course he would be impressed. Impressed that a mortal got that strong to begin with. He even says that he's impressed of Vegeta's skills, and that was before the Rage Boost. Does that mean SSJ2 (No Rage) Vegeta > everyone else?

4. Goku's now a god and Vegeta showed to have latent abilities with his rage boosts, plus this could be used as a plot-device to set up for the next movie. That and Goku and Vegeta are the main characters.

5. That would still mean that there's a new enemy that's that strong, which could very well be concerning. But even then, Kaio specifically states to stay away from him, and he knows how strong Gotenks and Gohan are. Vegeta's just obeying his wishes. Plus even Vegeta states he knows the name already.

2) Kaioshin > Freeza is an undisputed fact. Kaioshin is wetting himself at the sight of Pui-Pui and Yakon. Goku and Vegeta in their Base states beat Yakon/Pui-Pui respectively. So Freeza > Base Goku / Vegeta > Kaioshin >>>> Freeza??

Kaioshin is concerned over Babidi (who has powerful magic that's strong enough to ensnare even the King of Demons) and his minions (who have a reputation as being the strongest warriors in the Universe), but by no means "wetting himself". He only did that against Dabura. He just wants to use caution when confronting the enemies from the same "Archtype" (Majin) who destroyed all the Kaioshin before all this. Plus he only admits inferiority against the Super Saiyans, but by no means the Base Saiyans. And Goku didn't beat Yakon. He hit him once and was then implied to need help from Base Gohan in order to beat.

[Darkron2151]

I'll get back to those other points, but first

1. Everyone was excited Goku arrived back when Beerus was gonna destroy the earth, but they already saw Ultimate Gohan get two-shotted by Beerus
2. Master Roshi using Goku as a measuring stick instead of Gohan when Vegeta attacks Beerus
3.If Gohan was the strongest non fused, then the gods would have made some sort of impression with him. But they don't care about him or Gotenks. Beerus was impressed with SSJ3 Goku after powering up.
4. At the end of the film Beerus says that both Vegeta and Goku could be threats. Nothing is said about Gohan or Gotenks.
5. Vegeta is shocked that Goku was defeated by Beerus. No reason to be if Gohan and Gotenks were still stronger enough that they could stomp Goku.

1. So? Vegeta knew already that Goku lost in two hits, and he himself actually took a bunch of punches yet managed to rage, in which it was noted that even he was stronger than Goku when enraged.

2. So? They use Freeza as a measuring stick in the Android Saga and up. Does that mean Freeza> Everyone else that wasn't mentioned in the comparison? Plus that could just mean that Gohan was still stronger than Vegeta.

3. Goku was the first one that he met, so of course he would be impressed. Impressed that a mortal got that strong to begin with. He even says that he's impressed of Vegeta's skills, and that was before the Rage Boost. Does that mean SSJ2 (No Rage) Vegeta > everyone else?

4. Goku's now a god and Vegeta showed to have latent abilities with his rage boosts, plus this could be used as a plot-device to set up for the next movie. That and Goku and Vegeta are the main characters.

5. That would still mean that there's a new enemy that's that strong, which could very well be concerning. But even then, Kaio specifically states to stay away from him, and he knows how strong Gotenks and Gohan are. Vegeta's just obeying his wishes. Plus even Vegeta states he knows the name already.

2) Kaioshin > Freeza is an undisputed fact. Kaioshin is wetting himself at the sight of Pui-Pui and Yakon. Goku and Vegeta in their Base states beat Yakon/Pui-Pui respectively. So Freeza > Base Goku / Vegeta > Kaioshin >>>> Freeza??

Kaioshin is concerned over Babidi (who has powerful magic that's strong enough to ensnare even the King of Demons) and his minions (who have a reputation as being the strongest warriors in the Universe), but by no means "wetting himself". He only did that against Dabura. He just wants to use caution when confronting the enemies from the same "Archtype" (Majin) who destroyed all the Kaioshin before all this. Plus he only admits inferiority against the Super Saiyans, but by no means the Base Saiyans. And Goku didn't beat Yakon in Base. He hit him once and was then implied to need help from Base Gohan in order to beat.

[Skar]

Even if it does take place in the manga, read my above post.

Okay just so I can understand this correctly you're saying Toriyama retconned Beerus as the one who sealed Old Kai but not might consider Battle of Gods as taking place in the same timeline as the manga even though he's using a character who has only appeared in that movie? This is really reaching to be honest. If you personally don't want to include the movie that's fine but you won't convince anyone else if that's what you're going to use.

The Cell Jr. argument isn't the greatest argument, they were all toying, if they were all going full force, the humans would've been dead. We also don't know to what extent each of them were toying. One could've used 1% on Krillin while one could've used 50% on Piccolo.

We don't know how much the Cell Jrs were holding back but since Piccolo was beat up while still standing means they used more effort against him than the humans. If you're free to assume they only used 50% against Piccolo then it's fair to assume #18 never used 100% against Mighty Mask.

Also, we don't know how low tired MSSJ Goku was. He could've only been 5-10% stronger than Base Goku, just enough that he didn't revert to base.

Okay since you've given an alternate interpretation of everything said so far then is it fair for me to assume Goku had way more energy than that? Even when he was suffering from the heart virus he was way higher than 5-10% of of his base. I don't even think it's possible for their SSJ to get that low without reverting back on its own.

Here's my question: If Android 18 was really multi-folds stronger than the kids, why didn't she just do this to them?

Spoiler:

Why just go up in the air and pretty much dance with Goten and Trunks? For the fun of it?

I don't know if this really needs to be explained. She used a weak attack to knock out that human because she sorta wants to avoid killing him. That same weak attack didn't work on Mighty Mask since it turned out he wasn't an average human. Mighty Mask was the one who fly up and she chased him and knocked him back down. She never implied he was as strong as her or that she was going all out against him and all she said was that he was "strong" which would make sense considering she originally thought he would be an average human. Sorry but unless there's a direct statement that Goten and Trunks ~ full power #18 then there's no way I can ignore the direct statement given in Battle of Gods about base Goku and Frieza.

[Skar]

Also, on topic to Freeza > or < Base Saiyans

2) Kaioshin > Freeza is an undisputed fact. Kaioshin is wetting himself at the sight of Pui-Pui and Yakon. Goku and Vegeta in their Base states beat Yakon/Pui-Pui respectively. So Freeza > Base Goku / Vegeta > Kaioshin >>>> Freeza ??

Kaioshin was worried because after seeing Dabura under Babidi's spell he wanted to be careful against his other henchmen. Pui Pui thought 10x Earth's gravity would give him an advantage over Vegeta. The last time 10g was even worth mentioning was back during the Saiyan saga when their power levels were in the low 1000s. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber was 10x Earth's gravity and base Trunks and Gohan had no trouble walking even though they had never experienced increased gravity before. That would pretty much mean that after a high enough power level they wouldn't even feel 10g so Pui Pui would have to weaker than them to think that level of gravity would make a difference in his fight. After SSJ Goku's light was eaten by Yakon Gohan offered to help Goku which implied Goku couldn't have won on his own in base. Plus Vegeta said Goku had a plan which wouldn't be necessary if he was already stronger than Yakon in base.

You're trying to find everything that might imply the base Saiyans were stronger than Frieza to dispute a direct statement saying Goku was weaker than him that Goku didn't argue with. The examples you gave could be interpreted to fit with Beerus' statement but you're only choosing to look at the interpretation that doesn't. In my opinion the only convincing way to dispute a direct statement is with another direct statement not just something that could possibly be implied.

[Hugo Boss]

Did the Daizenshuu really say base Goten and Trunks were almost as strong as #18?

Not exactly. They were Super Saiyans before No.18 managed to rip their disguise. Even in Super Saiyan Mode Trunks still considered No.18 a pain in close combat.

[CatouttaHell]

The Daizenshuu stated that Chibi Trunks demonstrated power on par with 18's until their disguise was discovered or something along those lines IIRC.

That clearly is referring to base Chibi Trunks, considering SSj Chibi Trunks made 18 have a panic attack by firing a suppressed Ki blast.

Page 1
Page 2

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Not "on par with" Cyborg 18 at all.

There's also Vegeta agreeing to not turn into a SSj in the Tenkaichi Budoukai and agreeing, saying it wouldn't change his superior position. Note that this is never contradicted and while Vegeta was so far unaware that Piccolo would enter the TB, 18 was on the plane with him when he said that and he knew she'd be participating.

[Skar]

@CatouttaHell
I guess we have to agree to disagree. I feel Beerus' statement was meant to be true due to the fact that Goku didn't argue with him. That was during Beerus' first few minutes of screentime so the author probably wouldn't want Beerus be wrong in his very first judgement of another person's power AND not have that person care enough to correct him. Even before Battle of Gods I always felt the base Saiyans never surpassed Frieza. Base became somewhat irrelevant after SSJ was introduced because they always trained to improve that form and then transform further. The plot never required base to get much stronger since they could transform into SSJ in a split second when they needed to. The only way I could change my mind about Beerus' statement is if Toriyama came out and said he was wrong or if there was a solid line in the manga clearly stating that the base Saiyans were stronger than Frieza by mentuoning both of them by name.

[Hugo Boss]

That clearly is referring to base Chibi Trunks, considering SSj Chibi Trunks made 18 have a panic attack by firing a suppressed Ki blast.

It's not that specific.

"He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's ^{(in their normal state)}, until she managed to see through their disguise."

And how you know the ki blast was supressed? Trunks was overstatimating No. 18 from the beginning, he even avoided a direct fight with the disguise in the way. Also we don't know if he actually followed Goten's advice, he only said "alright.. ".

Not "on par with" Cyborg 18 at all.

It's not like she couldn't do anything against Mighty Mask, her goal was to defeat him, not the kids. She managed to come up with a plan by ripping their disguise and she accomplished quickly. They were "on par" in the sight that it wasn't an one-sided fight. Even Freeza in Namek started roughly on par with Goku's normal state, and after a lot of overturns he became worn-out and cut by his own technique while fighting Goku at Super Saiyan Mode. Then, it's like they were "on par" until one managed to win.

There's also Vegeta agreeing to not turn into a SSj in the Tenkaichi Budoukai and agreeing, saying it wouldn't change his superior position. Note that this is never contradicted and while Vegeta was so far unaware that Piccolo would enter the TB, 18 was on the plane with him when he said that and he knew she'd be participating.

It's funny that everyone agreed to not turn into SS, but all the Saiyans that participated didn't follow the rule when put in a corner. Vegeta saying that it's completely in-character for him, we don't have to take it as a fact though. I'm inclined to the idea that Vegeta thought that, since he was the strongest Super Saiyan around, the same would be if he fought Goku both in their normal forms.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

And how you know the ki blast was supressed?

DB 38 (DBZ 22) pg. 107
Context: As Trunks is about to fire his blast
Goten: "Don't use full power!"
Trunks: "I know!"

[Hugo Boss]

And how you know the ki blast was supressed?

DB 38 (DBZ 22) pg. 107
Context: As Trunks is about to fire his blast
Goten: "Don't use full power!"
Trunks: "I know!"

You could elaborate more on that. How you know Trunks didn't say that to shut Goten up? Goten even complains about Trunks not shooting fast enough and Trunks was pissed for having missed.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well given the fact that nothing suggests Trunks just ignored Goten and nothing suggests the blast wasn't suppressed, I see no reason to ignore it.

What suggests Trunks didn't listen to Goten?

[Hugo Boss]

Well given the fact that nothing suggests Trunks just ignored Goten and nothing suggests the blast wasn't suppressed, I see no reason to ignore it.

What suggests Trunks didn't listen to Goten?

What I said in the second part of my sentence. If Trunks held back, I guess he should pass a confident posture, not a pissed-off-attitude and Goten screaming on his failure. You are under the assumption that, since nothing it's directly stated about Trunks not holding back, it's confirmed that he did hold back. Others can think different.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yeah, they're mad it missed, that doesn't invalidate Trunks' or Goten's statement. Assuming things that aren't suggested at all sounds like a way to nerf the kids.

[Hugo Boss]

The kids don't need that "nerf" kind of treatment. They alone are already ridiculously powerful shrimps to scare No.18, who once humiliated SS Vegeta, but their importance in the story is to serve as fusion materials. Even Goku said Metamorians were weak and become a fierce warrior when fused. I don't think Goku would call someone like Freeza for example a weakling. I guess, maybe he could, but Goten and Trunks don't need to be far stronger than No. 18 to Gotenks be far more stupendous than a Metamorian, imo.

[CatouttaHell]

It's not that specific.

"He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's ^{(in their normal state)}, until she managed to see through their disguise."

I've already explained why that could not have been referring to his SSj form.

And how you know the ki blast was supressed? Trunks was overstatimating No. 18 from the beginning, he even avoided a direct fight with the disguise in the way. Also we don't know if he actually followed Goten's advice, he only said "alright.. ".

LMFAO! Goten told him not to use full power and Trunks said he knows. Toriyama is a simple man. If Trunks says he's going to fire a suppressed blast then that's exactly what he's going to do. Simple as that.

It's not like she couldn't do anything against Mighty Mask, her goal was to defeat him, not the kids. She managed to come up with a plan by ripping their disguise and she accomplished quickly. They were "on par" in the sight that it wasn't an one-sided fight. Even Freeza in Namek started roughly on par with Goku's normal state, and after a lot of overturns he became worn-out and cut by his own technique while fighting Goku at Super Saiyan Mode. Then, it's like they were "on par" until one managed to win.

The only thing 18 could do is launch an extremely deadly attack at them in an attempt to get rid of their disguise. If she's so powerful then why did she have to resort to using a deadly attack against two kids in a freaking tournament match?

Your Freeza comparison is irrelevant considering Freeza is 80% of SSj Goku by the official numbers and thus Goku was clearly pulling his punches.

It's funny that everyone agreed to not turn into SS, but all the Saiyans that participated didn't follow the rule when put in a corner. Vegeta saying that it's completely in-character for him, we don't have to take it as a fact though. I'm inclined to the idea that Vegeta thought that, since he was the strongest Super Saiyan around, the same would be if he fought Goku both in their normal forms.

Gohan only went SSj2 because Kibito told him to. Vegeta went SSj when Babidi took over his head, and Goku went SSj in case Demon Prince Vegeta fired any more blasts at the audience. None of this contradicts Vegeta's claim that he'd be superior to Cyborg 18 even in base.

[Hugo Boss]

I've already explained why that could not have been referring to his SSj form.

Daizenshuu's quote is not clear about what form they are, unless Mighty Mask could be labelled as a form. They fought as Super Saiyans as well. You read as you will. I don't think the quote makes sense if we plug only one of Trunks' forms to No. 18, given that Goten is also included and he is a bit weaker than Trunks.

Goten told him not to use full power and Trunks said he knows. Toriyama is a simple man. If Trunks says he's going to fire a suppressed blast then that's exactly what he's going to do. Simple as that.

Trunks never confirmed he fired a supressed blast. His reaction to the ki blast failure could lead contrary to that belief. And prior to that, he told Goten to not worry, since their opponent was No. 18. I guess you can think what you will.

The only thing 18 could do is launch an extremely deadly attack at them in an attempt to get rid of their disguise. If she's so powerful then why did she have to resort to using a deadly attack against two kids in a freaking tournament match?

Her plan was not to kill them, but to rip their disguise. That way she could win without using force. She acknowledged their superiority in power, but they weren't able to continue the fight.

Your Freeza comparison is irrelevant considering Freeza is 80% of SSj Goku by the official numbers and thus Goku was clearly pulling his punches.

Saying my comparison is irrelevant seems rude to me. Try to work on that attitude, please. Freeza and Goku started the fight even, Kaio made a note on that. Both have turned the tables a lot during their fight until Goku was declared winner. They "demonstrated strenght on par with each other" in that light, see? Even if SS Goku wasn't all out, he didn't demonstrate. I could use for example SS3 Goku vs. Fat Boo also.

Gohan only went SSj2 because Kibito told him to. Vegeta went SSj when Babidi took over his head, and Goku went SSj in case Demon Prince Vegeta fired any more blasts at the audience. None of this contradicts Vegeta's claim that he'd be superior to Cyborg 18 even in base.

Vegeta's and Goku's situations didn't occur exactly during the tournament. Vegeta's claim can be dismissed by what Goten, Trunks and Gohan did.

[xmysticgohanx]

Doesn't the Daizenshuu specifically say: in their normal state

[Hugo Boss]

No, it says Mighty Mask.

"He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise."

The way the description is presented can be interpreted as Mighty Mask having a match with No. 18 until he wasn't able to continue the fight.