The kienzan was never stated to increase the power of the user, but it's capable of taking out someone more powerful than the user. If someone weaker than the enemy uses a Kamehameha, what often happens? It doesn't do a damn thing. If someone weaker than the enemy uses a huge Chi-blast in general, what often happens? Nothing.
One, just because no increase was stated doesn't mean one didn't happen. Second, so what? How does this relate to your point of the Kienzan magically being able to one-shot everything no matter what?
The fact that he's that winded automatically means he exerted himself far more than Freeza did. Him not being one-shot material doesn't change the fact that they were all weaker than Freeza at that point. Vegeta saying "we'll be able to win somehow or another" does not change this fact.
So? What does this have to do with my point? I was saying that the V-Jump levels weren't exactly 100% reliable, because Vegeta clearly wasn't just a fraction of Freeza's power, as otherwise he and the others would stand no chance.
Nor was his punch shown capable of cutting or damaging Freeza, while the kienzan did. We also see Freeza dodging Piccolo and the others effortlessly, while he's visibily annoyed, but focused on not touching another kienzan. So clearly, Piccolo's punch>Freeza is utter bullshit.
We see him kick away Freeza later. "But Freeza was off-guard and suppressed!" you may say. Well yeah, he was. Same with the Kienzan.
As I've said, just because someone looks annoyed when they're dodging something, doesn't mean they actually have anything to worry about. See Goku vs Nappa.
Slightly off-guard. Freeza saw it coming and didn't dodge it fast enough. Characters dodging other attacks doesn't negate the potential of the kienzan, either.
He saw it coming right before it hit him. I don't know what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say something about the Kienzan's speed? Because we know that it's extremely slow.
We see it cut through a partially off-guarded, powered-up Freeza, actually. Did you forget that he just powered-up?
I'm aware that he powered up. But he still wasn't at full power even within that form, as we later see him power-up and go from barely drawing even with Piccolo to beating the shit out of Piccolo. My point is that bringing up an occasion where a character was hit off-guard, while suppressed, in a weak spot isn't a very good indicator of the Kienzan's strength, and certainly isn't enough to prove that it's a magical one-hit-kill wonder move. As I said, the best "feat" the Kienzan really has is almost killing Nappa, since we actually know the strengths involved there. Which is hardly that special. A SBC from Krillin could have done the same thing.
Proof that powered-up Freeza wasn't more stronger than Krillin on namek than Goten was a more powerful Krillin many yrs after?
Krillin shouldn't be dramatically stronger than he was on Namek (he just goes through 3 years of non-special training and he's done for life), while base Goten is tens of times stronger than 2nd form Freeza (to say nothing of suppressed 2nd form Freeza). Krillin also shouldn't be extremely far off from 2nd form Freeza to begin with, since he was considered useful against 1st form Freeza based on his power level alone, and managed to lead 2nd form Freeza around on a chase for a little while.
But we saw a powered-up Freeza make a visible effort to dodge it, which points to it being capable of cutting through him more likely than not.
One, he wasn't powered up. Two, as I've said, that doesn't actually indicate it'd kill him. There's a middle ground between "would have no effect" and "would slice through him like butter". Three, even if it could cut him, that again wouldn't be proof that the Kienzan is a magical one-hit-kill wonder move.
Or maybe it would cut them in half. We really don't know what the difference is.
We don't, but base saiyans < Freeza puts a limit on how big the SS Goten-Android 18 gap can be, while there's no reason to believe that the base Goten-Krillin gap wouldn't be as large as the series implies it is (i.e. Krillin is weaker than 1st form Freeza, base Goten is tens of times stronger than that).
I'm saying it'd one-shot Base Goten.
Based on what?
Another question: do you think it'd one-shot 100% Freeza? Or Android 18? Or SS Goten?
What you're suggesting has never taken place. We have no idea what the limits to the kienzan are, so saying it'd dissipate when used on someone more powerful by a vast amount is conjecture based on nothing.
No, what I'm suggesting is that the Kienzan isn't completely unique and unprecedented. By this logic, someone has to prove that Piccolo's SBC wouldn't pierce through Super Vegetto, since "saying it wouldn't work when used on someone more powerful by a vast amount is conjecture based on nothing". Funnily enough, we actually do see the SBC fail to pierce in filler... just like we see the Kienzan fail to cut in filler.
They're not comparable.
No, they're very much comparable. Just because Cell initially underestimated it doesn't mean he WASN'T vastly stronger than Vegeta.
Just like Cell was done in by Goku's warp Kamehameha, right?
The Warp Kamehameha completely engulfed him and only took off his head. The Final Flash cleaved through whatever it hit. Like Gohan's second Kamehameha.
An attack that thrives on its characteristics, which isn't anything like the Makankosappo. That attack is reliant on Battle Power. Piccolo makes it a point to mention this.
1. Proof that it relies solely on characteristics and doesn't amplify power at all?
2. Piccolo's attack still benefits from characteristics, as it went right through someone with a slightly higher battle power than the attack. You're the one making assumptions about the limits of the boost granted by those characteristics.
Doesn't matter. It's not enough of an advantage to stop Piccolo's attack or Gohan's headbutt from leaving him powerless. They're all in the same league in terms of power, so nothing special.
Except he was still stronger than the attack. Where's your proof that the same attack wouldn't work on everybody?
Goku also says he would've been in trouble if he didn't counter Nappa's attack.
Yes, Nappa's "greatest technique". That doesn't really have anything to do with him dodging a punch from someone demonstrably far weaker than him.
No, it's shown to be a far more powerful kiai attack. The fact that the Neo version is a more powerful version of the original Kikoho is enough of an indication. What that means is Tenshinhan isn't all that great, not his attack. Not like Piccolo knew he even had the Neo Kikoho at that point.
If Ten could one-shot the androids, Freeza, Cold, and Cell, then he WOULD be that great, regardless of how he actually did it.
And yet he still couldn't get out of it because the Neo Kikoho is far more powerful than a typical kiai. Freeza was able to get around Goku's kiai without any trouble. Why didn't Cell do the same with Tenshinhan's Neo Kikoho? Because he couldn't. Cell was pretty annoyed that Tenshinhan stopped him, so we know for a fact he couldn't get around it.
Because Ten's Kikoho was rapid-fired at a flying Cell, and had a large AOE.
Again, you're talking about its pushing power. Not its actual damage. Damage-wise, we repeatedly see that the Kikoho isn't THAT great.
A normal kiai is not comparable to a Neo Kikoho.
They have about similar damage feats (i.e. they do nothing except push a vastly superior opponent around).
Isn't that what we're shown? Are we not told the Kikoho has incredible destructive power? The technique would obviously be more effective than anything Tenshinhan could put forth with his normal power. It's PIS. These hypothetical scenario's you're thinking of doesn't change that.
Not really. If he could use the Kikoho, but it just wouldn't work, he may figure it a better idea to just charge in and attempt to catch them off guard, rather than kill himself again with an attack he knows won't work.
There's a difference between "PIS" and "the story stops making sense on the most basic level, and nothing this character says ever means anything".
Because Tenshinhan being impaired and damaged wouldn't have a negative effect on his powers. Piccolo wondered if Nappa was immortal after taking this half-powered Kikoho, so that was most likely better than anything he could do. We don't know how strong Tenshinhan is during the Cell/Boo saga. All we know is he's weaker than Gero. If the attack is so weak and useless, why couldn't Cell get around it? You know what technique was shown to be useless? Piccolo's Light Grenade against Imperfect Cell
We know that he's weaker than Krillin. And base android arc Vegeta.
Because kiais are very good at pushing people, but not much else. The Kikoho CAN deal damage, and a lot of it, but obviously it's not a completely unique one-hit-kill wonder move in this regard, since it wouldn't work on Daimao, Jr, Nappa, the androids, or Imperfect Cell.
No one's saying that the Kikoho isn't superior to Ten's regular power. It is not, however, as strong as you're making it out to be. Otherwise, Ten would've disintegrated Imperfect Cell with it, rather than watching his friend get tortured to death while lying about not being able to help. Oh, and Ten would have fried Daimao and Jr.
Which was the introduction of the Kikoho.
And?
When does he use it?
He uses it to make a hole to hide in right before Piccolo destroys the island.
Cell says Tenshinhan wasn't going to live much longer after he finished using the Neo Kikoho.
Because Cell was going to kill him.
The enemy can dodge the attack, you know? What good would it be if he uses all of his energy for nothing, while also decreasing his lifespan while at it? That wouldn't make much sense. It's a last resort.
They can also dodge the Mafuba and any other ki attack anyone else can use. Yet Ten still never thinks to just one-shot these idiots and call it a day.
And yet he used it against Semi-Cell. So unless you're saying he developed the attack in-between the battle with the Androids and Cell's absorption of #17, we know he could've used it against the Androids. He just...didn't.
I'm saying that while he could have used it, it wouldn't have done anything. Because he said it wouldn't have done anything. And Piccolo said it wouldn't have done anything.
Tenshinhan is not the Kikoho.
Tenshinhan has the Kikoho. If he can one-shot Gero with a ki blast, then he can handle Gero, and Piccolo's statement doesn't apply. Simple.
